Just returned from my annual Colorado adventure, this time I was lucky enough to shoot a super good mule deer.
I was using my pet 300Wby, loaded with some 180gr SSTs instead of my usual Nosler partitions. I wanted to see if the results from last year were typical or not. In case you don't remember, my son shot his deer with a 270, loaded with 140gr Hornadys. Bullet did not exit, a few pieces of core and jacket recovered, shot from 35yds.
This time, I shot from about 125yds and again there was no exit. We did recover the bullet, or what's left of it! Typical peeled back jacket with some lead remaining. Found on off side, it made it's way through the deer's body on a broadside shot. No bones hit and deer went down pretty quickly.
Am I missing something here, isn't a bullet fired from this range expected to exit when no major bones are hit? Has Hornady softened up their bullets? I used Hornady bullets years ago and always got exits from similar shots. Obviously it worked but from these last two performances I would be very hesitant to use them on anything like elk, especially if one is prone to make shoulder shots.

John, my results with Hornady bullets have been a mixed bag. I have quite a few that I've recovered (Interlocts) from mule deer, elk, and bison (mostly elk) that look like textbook specimens of the perfect mushroomed bullet. Many others went straight through, and some came apart. The ones that came apart were usually from shoulder shots on elk. I don't used them for elk hunting any more, nor would I used them for mixed-bag African hunting or moose or big bear hunting.

For medium game they are usually excellent, especially on smallish Texas hillcountry bucks, etc.

One thing I've especially come to appreciate about Hornday bullets: They are accurate - sometimes superbly accurate - in a wide variety of rifles, and if a given rifle won't shoot Hornady bullets well, it often won't shoot any bullet well.

In that regard, I've found the Nosler Partition to be the most uniformly accurate premium bullet, and it's usually the bullet I experiment with first when I need a high-performance load. I prefer the Nosler Partition to the Hornady for general use. It's just about as accurate and much more consistent as far as terminal performance goes, especially for bigger animals, and it works just fine on the smallish stuff as well.

AD

John: I took my muley from similar range with a 300 Win and 180 Gr. Interlokt. The bullet exited taking part of one rib, leaving a fist sized hole. I have never used the SST's. As Allen said, I've had Interlokt's blow up on shoulder bones, but I have never had one fragment without hitting a major bone.

I don't believe that Hornady recommends the SST on big game !!!! I personally use Noslers, but in perusing the latest Hornady reloading manual, the SSTs look to be a match type bullet. They advise using interlocks as SSTs "MAY BE UNPREDICTABLE ON GAME".

bowhuntr

Hi John,
Pretty exaspering, huh? To get similar results at 35 and 125 yards would cause anyone to wonder. Maybe the 140's velocity, out of your son's .270 at 35 yards, is comparable to your .300 Wea. / 180's at 125 yards, in that both are taxing the bullet design to a similar degree (?). Just thinkin' out loud. I do think the use of premium bullets offers a higher level of consistancy of performance and are therefore a bit easier to evaluate.

Nick,
I forgot to mention that I used the same SSTs earlier this fall on my antelope. He was shot from 235yds and the bullet behaved more "normally" in that I had a nice 1" exit hole, and the resultant dead antelope!
Your ideas about the impact velocities are likely correct, making these type bullets pretty much a ? for general use, IMO. I've been using premium bullets exclusively the past ten years with perfect results, but being the experimenter I am, plus being a big voice in the premium bullet camp, I felt compelled to re-visit these type bullets. After looking at the performances from these last three hunts I think I will go back to premiums! I'll leave the "tin foil" bullets to whomever likes them.

[ 10-29-2002, 19:28: Message edited by: John S ]

I hear that, John. I've said here before that the Hornady bullets have always worked well for me, and they have, but I've not driven them all that fast, either, maybe 2,900 with the 7mm-08 Light Magnums with the 140's. Most of my handloads were likely slower than good .270 or .300 Magnum loads. I have gotten many fragmental exits over the years with Sierra 130's, Nosler solid bases and B.T.'s in the .270, which I thought should have done better. Same thing with the 7 Mag, using Nosler Ballistic Tips. I don't shoot enough these days to worry about the economics, so that's out of the equation. I use the premiums for nearly all my hunting except woodchucks.

I think in an -06 you may have been impressed with the bullet. I find any Hornady bullet gets pretty gooey once it reaches 3000 fps. The 200gr SP's out of my .338 WMag will blow a 25 pound Porcupine all to hell at 70-100 yards and that's a light bodied critter. On the otherhand a local guy put a 180gr SP straight through a 384lb. black bear last fall with a 30-06. I think once you pass the 3,000 barrier that only premiums should be used on big game. My 2 cents.

I forgot to note that the 140 grain SSTs were fired at just over 2800 fps from a 24" 6.5x55 (46 grains Re-22 in Lapua brass).

Part of the reason for the success of any 6.5mm, 140 grain bullet is the high sectional density. That, combined with moderate impact velocity and attendant in-game "hang time," is what, IMHO, makes the 6.5s such reliable killers -- and what puts the game down seemingly quicker than anything else.

Also, bowhuntr, tell us what page in the Hornady manual you read this. I've looked over mine thoroughly and see no such reference.

[ 10-30-2002, 05:33: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

Hey John,

I dont have much to add to the bullet inquiry, but hows about a picture of that super buck?
You guys have any luck on the home front whitetails?

HBH

Don't have my pic's back yet, but when they arrive I'll get a few scanned and then see if someone can post them up for me!
We've done a bit of bow hunting but no luck so far. They are about ready to get into rut so every day it should just get better. Hopefully we'll get one shot pretty soon!!

To lump all Hornady bullets into one category isnt much different than suggesting that a Partition and a BT are supposed to perform the same. SSTs may have an interlock ring but so what, it is still a glorified hollow point and at 300 Wby velocities what would you expect from such a bullet?

I dont use BT type bullets except for Varmint shooting. The entire concept just doesnt jibe with the needs of big game performance IMO. Your penetration may vary.

Hornady spire points like most other bullets are made to function within a specific velocity window. If your really interested in having a more succesfull experiment with a less costly bullet and 300 Wby and this isnt just a cheap bullet bashing then I would suggest a Speer Mag tip.

[ 10-30-2002, 08:21: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

The "SST's" that Hornady are making now have thicker jackets than the old ones just because the old ones were shedding their jackets. Hornady claims that their new "SST's" will hold together on large game now.

[ 10-30-2002, 16:26: Message edited by: CharlieinKansas ]

I'll start with the disclaimer... I've never used the SST or any polymer tipped bullet on game.

But, I have heard the same thing about inconsistency in performance at "higher" velocities. It seems that people I have talked to have been happy with them at .308 and .30-06 velocities, but when you get into .25-06, .270, and magnum territory it's a crap shoot. FWIW.

Bob

I decided to try these particular bullets because Weatherby has loaded Hornadys in their factory ammo for many years. If it works for them, why shouldn't I have tried it? I was not hunting large game, had no intentions of shooting into heavy bones or taking any Texas heart shots. Yes, I think the velocity levels I am using are stretching them a bit, but I still maintain they should exit on these type situations. After trying Nosler Ballistic Tips and finding them to be bombs I thought maybe the SSTs would be an improvement, which they evidently are not!
The 270cal 140gr we tried last year was not an SST but a boattailed spire point, interlock ring included. Same for these new SSTs in 30cal.
Again, I used the old style Hornadys for many years in my 270 and never had a problem with getting an exit. These newer designed models apparently will not deliver that every time. So I must still pose the original question- Have they changed?

I learned my lesson with Hornady Interlocks too. I took my 300 Weatherby to Africa last year and had to use factory 180gr ammo that is loaded byWeatherby with Interlocks. I shot an impala at 80 yards quartering towards me ( yeah I know a lot of you guys have heard this before) and he dropped dead on the spot. I recovered the bullet in front of the off side rear ham right under the skin. I was taken quite by surprise that the bullet couldn't make it all the way through a tiny impala. It weighed 85 gr. It did it's job, but had that been say a kudu or larger animal I don't think it would have penetrated through to the vitals. The 220gr factory RN, also loaded with Hornadys, is deadly on bear. Muchlike the 6/5 Swede, it's long, torpedo-like sectional density and lower velocity ( 2900 vs 3245 MV)allows it to hold together much better. I have pictures! go here: www.kateydid.com/hunter jorge

I learned my lesson with Hornady Interlocks too. I took my 300 Weatherby to Africa last year and had to use factory 180gr ammo that is loaded byWeatherby with Interlocks. I shot an impala at 80 yards quartering towards me ( yeah I know a lot of you guys have heard this before) and he dropped dead on the spot. I recovered the bullet in front of the off side rear ham right under the skin. I was taken quite by surprise that the bullet couldn't make it all the way through a tiny impala. It weighed 85 gr. It did it's job, but had that been say a kudu or larger animal I don't think it would have penetrated through to the vitals. The 220gr factory RN, also loaded with Hornadys, is deadly on bear. Muchlike the 6/5 Swede, it's long, torpedo-like sectional density and lower velocity ( 2900 vs 3245 MV)allows it to hold together much better. I have pictures! go here: www.kateydid.com/hunter jorge

[ 10-30-2002, 17:46: Message edited by: jorge ]

Hornady has been very good to me when I have questions. They even sent some reloading data to me for the 480. It was their form for testing at the range. Give them a call. Have your lot number on the box (if you still have it) so they can tell you about that production lot. The 270 performance blowing up at short range doesn't suprise me. I shoot bullets into wet newpaper and can see how the impact can stress bullets. It is alot of work but is is alot of fun doing that.

I am going to guess that the jacket on the 270 was peeled back almost totally, only 1/8 still on the shank, and on the 300 was 1/4 with some lead in it but the jacket peeled way back like a banana peel. The "peel" was most likely longer than the shank that was left.

Any way give Hornady a call. They need your imput

HCliff

Dammit guys. Now you got me thinking. I was going to try the 162 gr SSTs in my 7mm Rem Mag for deer, elk, and black bear as a more economical substitute for the 160 gr Partitions I am using now. Someone asked me if the extra money for the Partitions was really that much when compared to the price of a failure in bullet performance. I used to think "yes" it was alot when I intend to shoot somewhere around 500 rounds this summer. Now I am not so sure. I may still try out the SSTs, but I'll make sure to have a Partition load ready.

I can't say much about Hornady bullets (other than that the spire points work great for my grandpa in his 06), but I can tell you I shot a fat doe earlier this week at about 50 feet. The load was a hot 160 gr Partition. The bullet entered perfectly behind left shoulder and penetrated fully, leaving an exit wound about an inch wide. Lungs were goo and most of the liver was trashed.

Yep you got me thinking. Maybe I'll stick with the Partitions.

Yes, it truly is. I decided to try conventional bullets, not to save money but rather to see if I was wasting it on premium type bullets for use on smaller bodied game. I wasn't, and my rifle actually shoots partitions into smaller agg's than it does anything else!
This thread might help others that are thinking about using "tin foil" bullets in their 270s, 7 mags and 30 mags. FORGET IT! This should also be heeded by factory ammo shooters as well, buy the premium lines that use partitions or other premium component bullets. Guys and gals that shoot 308s, 30/06s or other slow rounds can do otherwise!

John, that comment of yours about "tin foil" bullets is a lot closer to the truth than is commonly known.

I'm amazed at how many guys gripe about the cost of premium bullets, but are more than willing to spend the money on good rifles, optical and other equipment, plus their hunts. Compared to the cost of even a good do-it-yourself hunt, the cost of premium bullets is minimal, especially if you buy your bullets at less-than-retail and load 'em yourself. I don't believe in false economy, and if you can work up a practice load using non-premium bullets that hits in the same place as your premium-bullet hunting loads, you're just that much ahead of the game.

AD

I have to agree that lots of hunters that are not "shooters" will not spend the extra money for premium ammo or bullets. When I worked the gun shop I shot into wet newspaper and had the bullets on the counter for people to see. That helped to change a few minds but many still bought the $9.99 ammo. When you use the mind set that you use 1-2 bullets per animal harvested that is the cheapest cost of the hunt. The price of a license is higher than a box of bullets. What I always tell people is to sight your gun in for the hunting ammo and leave it. Practice with what ever kind of ammo or bullet you want. If the point of impact has moved, so what. It is the group size to show how well you are shooting. Most guns will hit with loads with in reason. If you are 2" off your mark so what. You can by a box of bullets or ammo sight in for it and have some left over for season. I am working on the same box of X bullets for my 25/06 for two years. Don't get me wrong I love to shoot but I practice I use a Hornady, or play with another bullet like a ballistic tip. That is the fun of handloading. When season arrives check the zero with hunting ammo and go. I actually have some pet accuracy loads that I use for practice. When practicing offhand or sitting I can tell with these how well I can shoot, not how the gun can shoot. Good Luck

Hcliff

And gentleman, that is the reason I keep comming back to Noslers. They are the most predictable bullet around..They will do one of two things: They will blow the nose lead off and go through the animal or they will form a perfect mushroom and go through the animal. I hear from time to time " my nosler failed, blew the lead out " so what, when that happens they kill even better, but do leave a little smaller exit hole, in my experience...either way they kill.

I will qualify that Noslers work best in calibers .277 and up. the Nosler is half solid and half soft, and will not leave a good blood trail in smaller calibers as its cross section when expanded is less than many makes of bullets, that is where its penitration comes from....

If you want a pretty mushroom bullet in Noslers then use the next weight UP like a 200 gr. in .308 calibers....If your blowing the front end off a nosler then use the next weight up...

Knowing your bullets is just as important as knowing your rifle, maybe more important...mark this down in your notebook of things that you can take to the bank.

I was getting perfect mushrooms from my 416 with Northfork bullets at 2300 FPS and they stopped on the off side skin, thats good for herd shooting...then Northfork told me to load them up to 2500 FPS and I found out nothing will stop them, always get exits. Now thats good for bachlor bull hunting....He knew his bullets! He makes a bullet equal or better than any of the rest.....

Ray,
What if I'm using the next weight UP and still blowing the front end off of them?

My wife had the same experience a few years back with the 140 BTSP loaded to 3000 fps. High lung shot on a smallish whitetail at 45 yards - - no exit, deer ran about 30 yards and keeled over.

Their bullets have always killed well, in both .270 Win and .338 Win Mag, but hardly ever exit. The 150 grain .270 did exit on little Impalas and Springbok, but not on Wildebeest, Warthog or Blesbok.

The 225 grain .338 didn't exit on Zebra, Kudu or Gemsbok.

I wrote Hornady a letter afterwards asking them if their bullets had gotten softer or if they changed the construction. Never received a reply.

[ 12-08-2002, 09:24: Message edited by: KuduKing ]

Seems to me I remember a conversation some years back with a man who told me that Nosler partition bullets, were in fact supposed to mushroom out on the front and would indeed shed (blow off) that front more than likely out out of a magnum type high velocity rifle. This Ole Boy's name was Bob a big wig of sorts at Nosler.

I would figure that anybody with much hunting or shooting experience, especially going on a high dollar money hunt, would know that the deck would be stacked against him using those SST Hornady's and a big 300 Weatherby magnum up close like. Well, I guess we all do like to find out for ourselves about such things and like my Granddaddy said, ain't nobody perfect in nothin except Jesus. Glad you got your deer to take home. I sure like those Noslers a bunch, and like you have tried a few others in the past expecting to get more for my money. It just never works out that way in bullets. Noslers, TBBC and Swift's are my answers.

I shoot a 300win mag loaded pretty hot. I have tried TBBC and had terrible luck on elk. Three good shots to the chest before she laid down and still required a finishing shot to the neck. Shots ranged from 60 to 150 yds. Wounds looked like the bullets went through w/out expanding much. Switched to Hornady interlocks the next year and shot two cow elk and they went down in short order, one was at 123 yds, and the other at 246 yds. Both bullets exited. This year I switched to the 180 grn SST and killed a great mule deer (27" spread 5x4, about 170 B&C) at 311 yds. Bullet broke both shoulders and kept going. My small bull elk was shot at 279 yds behind shoulder, bullet completely penetrated and he dropped on the spot. Sorry to hear about you all having bad experiences, but I am not changing bullets any time soon!

I've had good luck with the SST's. Last year took my 308 Ruger RSI took a Blackbuck Antelope, Axis buck and a whitetail spike using the 150 gr. this weekend I let a new hunter I've been teaching use my BLR in 300 Win Mag and he took a nice Axis with the 165 gr. SST. I think the SST's expand pretty violently, the biggest game we've shot with them is around 205 pounds body weight and they really seem to drop them quickly with a reasonable shot to the chest. I chose not to use them on Elk this weekend because I feel they expand too quickly for larger game.

FWIW I had great results this weekend using the Remington Corelokts.

338 Win Mag + 250 gr. Corelokt=Elk on the table.

At 110 yd's it broke one rib going in, took out the heart, one rib exiting and left a good 3/4" exit wound.

Jumpalot-
I think your experiences were good because of the ranges you were shooting. Try shooting those elk or big deer at close range and your experience might be more in line with my own.
I'm sorry guys, hunting is too costly in many ways for me to use these types of bullets any longer. I don't use 308s or 30/06s as I prefer my 270 or 300mags so for me the best insurance is to use premium bullets. others are free to use whatever they choose!

I've been using Hornady bullets for as long as I have been reloading, and quite frankly, have yet to have a failure. Of course, I make sure I don't set myself up to have a failure either!

Number 1, SSTs are designed to be used on light skinned big game. And, I think most would agree that they are designed to take game at longer ranges (or lower velocities). Thus the lighter jacket to aid in expansion when the bullet arrives.

If I am hunting in an area where I expect a relatively close shot, say anything under 200 yards, I prefer to use more "standard" bullets. For this reason, I usually use 190 grain Interlocks in my .300. If I expect a reasonable chance at something longer, such as antelope hunting, I like the SSTs.

If I am hunting larger big game, such as elk or bear, I prefer a premium controlled expansion bullet. Not necessarily because an interlock won't work, but rather because I don't want to take the chance if I have a hard facing shot.

In the past 10 years, I have shot deer as far away as 350 yards and as close as 30 yards with my .300 Win. All of them have done the job very well. But, as has already been mentioned by others, I would be more concerned with matching the performance of your bullet to the velocity of the rifle rather than trying to figure out if the bullet has changed. If you are exceeding 3000 fps, use a premium bullet.

John,
Then Johnny go one more weight up, anybody can figure that out. I doubt that you can blow a 220 gr. up but if you do then the next natural thing to do is get a 30-06, shoot 220 gr. bullets of premium construction, then your troubles are over, I guarentee it....

I have always believed the the big belted magnums should be used ONLY with premium bullets, common since and years of others failure indicate to me that is correct. You knew that, you wanted to see for yourself didn't you?? Now tell me I'm wrong! If you do tell me I'm wrong then your not as well versed on gunology as I give you credit for.

Ray-
Yes, I knew I was pushing the envelope with these bullets, but I usually get longish type shots when I hunt these areas so....
I fully agree with you on the need for a premium bullet when using the hi-speed cartridges. In my experience, they have insured the desired terminal effect regardless of range.

Well Guys,
I was contemplating using 150 grain Hornady Spire points in my .270 Win. on my Woodland Caribou hunt next fall. For some reason with the same load I get 2,950 fps with the Hornadys vs 2,850 fps with the 150 grain Nosler Partitions. They have the same POI but nothing says this has to make sense! Anyway, I do believe I'll be shooting the Noslers at just a bit slower velocity. Bet the caribou can't tell the difference and the trajectory difference would be so infintismal (what a word) that I can't tell the difference anyway.
Rich Elliott

Ok,Ok I'll admit it. I went to Africa for my first time this past July and I brought Hornady Bullets with me. Gasp! I just wasn't satisfied with the accuracy of Partitions or Barnes in my .300 Win Mag but it shot 190BTSP's like a hot damn. I slowed them down to 2850fps and as far as I'm concerned they were devastating. 4 shots, 4 big critters. Kudu, Oryx, Red Hartebeast and a Mtn. Zebra stallion. Various ranges from 130m out to 250m. Knowing I wasn't using a "premium" bullet I stayed below the 3000fps rule, I knew my bullet and accuracy of my rifle and my shooting capabilities. I will take them to Africa again without hesitation. And I don't think I saved any money by shooting these non-premium priced bullets because I burnt up about a thousand of them in preparation for my hunt. I recovered a bullet from the Kudu and oryx, shot one right through the hartebeast and had one disappear in the zebra, but the results were all the same.

Iceman

A skilled craftsman never blames his tools.