I have read several discussions about the benefits of large calibers and mags

I actually prefer small calibers for big game.
I have taken several nice muley bucks and 3 bull elk and 1 cow with My 243.

Lets hear all the arguments for and against small calibers.

I will elaborate on my preference once the topic picks up speed.

[ 11-21-2002, 21:47: Message edited by: michaelr ]

Ok here goes,I'll be first.
With properly constructed bullets shot placement is everything and I see caliber as a small issue.

With good bullets and great shot placement, smaller bullets are fine. Getting close enough and waiting for the perfect shot are a lot of what hunting is about anyway.

With poor shot placement, there's little difference in non-fatal wounds of small calibers and large calibers. So let's forget this stuff about "with the right shot placement". Assume proper shot placement, then discuss small caliber vs. large.

Two years ago I watched a cow elk run several hundred yards with a double lung shot from a 6mm Rem... there was no blood trail and I'd bet it would have been lost if it hadn't been in a ranch meadow. It was anchored by a 7mm Wby. I'm not saying it's unethical to use light caliber's on elk, but things can and do go wrong. I put a lot of energy into elk hunting and try to stack the deck in my favor in every way possible. As a result, I like .308" (+) cal's for elk with good bullets.

Brad

2 six points
1 5point
1 big cow
All stacked up with a total of seven shots. none went more than 20 yards.
I haven't kept count for deer but can honestly say that they usually fall where shot.
I have nothing but good things to say about the performance I have had with the 243.

The only critter I have ever wounded and lost was a 4X4 buck muley that I hit pretty well with a 300 win mag shooting 200 gr fac. loads

Over in new zealand the government used to have and maybe still does guys who had to keep the stag population in check.
they would shoot several each day, the weapon of choice for most of them was a 243. the one fellow I met claimed it to be the best he had ever used for that purpose, that it produced clean kills consistently.
I think it boils down to shot placement, and most guys are going to shoot a small caliber much better than a big magnun and probably make cleaner kills.

I personally will not pull the trigger unless I know I can make the shot.

This is like the BT vs. Partition argument.

No one who has never lost an animal to a small caliber is going to pay a bit of attention to the arguments of those that have, just as those BT lovers are never going to listen to us who have seen BT failures, until they experience one of their own.

I do know that bullet design has narrowed the cartridge gap.

I also know that while I may use a caliber that is so small (or a weapon so primitive) it forces me to limit my shot angle and distance, I'm not going to have a high-power rifle in my hands and have to pass on a shot because it's too close for the bullet. IMO that's silly.

I didn't mean to hi-jack the topic: I've killed quite a few deer with .243 95gr Partitions. I never could tell any practical difference between it and my .270 or /06.

But a whitetail isn't an elk.

[ 11-22-2002, 03:01: Message edited by: steve y ]

Stonecreek, I agree with you that any caliber requires proper shot placement but I do believe that proper shot placement should be allowed to come into play with this thread simply because proper shot placement with small calibers would mean to me perfect broadside behind the shoulder where as with the larger calibers perfect shot placement can come from many different angles.

I like the smaller calibers myself, because I'm not a big fan of recoil. I shoot the small calibers better.

.243 Seems like more of a deer caliber than an elk round, but if you're getting the job done, good for you. Obviously you are making good shots.

Seems like I see more guys going overgunned than undergunned. Shooting a big kicker you can't handle can lead to poorly shot game as well.

Was that 1.7 shots per animal or was one or two
of the four really hard to anchor?

The biggest advantage of a small calliber is that they tend to be shot more. Not just becase a given quantity of ammo is cheaper, nor just because they recoil less and are more pleasant to shoot. They tend to get shot more at more things, ie. varmints. Hence, the avid shooter of a small bore rifle will tend to be more familiar with the gun, trajectory, and his personal capabilities.

The cartridge I am have shot the most of, am the most confident in, and the most capable with from coyotes to elk (yes elk) is the 25-06 shooting 100gr pills. But admittedly, I've been experimenting this year with bigger bores (.338) to see what all the fuss is about for myself!

In my experience with .243 / 6mm cartridges , they kill deer well and leave a good sized wound channel . But many times there is absolutely no blood trail and if the animal gets out of sight into some cover you may have touble finding him .

Just a couple of evenings ago , I took a small buck that was facing me at the shot . The 95 gr SST performed nicely , entering the brisket , put a good sized hole thru the heart , and ended up stuck in the far flank , quite a bit of penetration for the little bullet . It still weighed 69 grains . But there was not one drop of blood on the ground , and we were extremely lucky to find him . At the shot , he whirled and ducked into a CRP field that stood four to five feet high in grass , and it was getting dark . He died in a fraction of a second , barely making thirty steps , but it was nearly impossible to find without some blood to follow ........

[ 11-22-2002, 10:59: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

I think any bullet used in any calibre should be able to get through the toughest part of the shoulder and still kill.

I don't expect a rifle to kill on a jaw or a gut shot, I do expect it to kill on a shoulder shot even if it hits the ball and socket.

Thus I am perfectly happy to use my 6mm on fallow but reluctant in extreme to use a my 6.5x55 even with 156gr premium bullets on moose.

I myself have taken many deer and one elk with .243. This deer season I was using a .300 Win because I like to change around and use what I've got. My hunting companions have taken 2 deer this year with 22-250. My son wounded a deer with a .243, but we failed to recover it. It went across the river, and we had to drive around to the crossing and never found the trail. There was no blood trail, even though I clearly saw blood on the deer's tail; I suspect it was not hit hard and too far back.

I have seen the .243/6mm used on elk a few times and I was quite unimpressed. And thats on cows, not a mature bull.
I wish all the small caliber,long range shooters,running shooters, unprepared hunters,etc had to abide by a rule similar to African hunting. "You draw blood and you pay for it". If you shoot; wound or lose it, thats IT for your tag.
I'll bet we would see hunters much more prepared and the use of the proper tool for the job.

There is a small percentage of hunters who could kill mature trophies with most any caliber no matter how light. The big problem is the vast percentage who "thinks" they can do it and can't. The result is a wounded or lost animal. Just not right in my book.

FN in MT

3006va,
2 were fallow up head shots, 1 for the cow elk and 1 on a deer,

My sucess with the 243 probably has alot to do with being prepared, I hand load everything I shoot, I shoot only premium bullets, I spend alot of time shooting in the off season, everything from chucks, ground squirrels, yotes, targets.

Most of the hunting I do is in the timber, I love the challenge of still hunting in the timber. you better have your A game or you will go home empty handed. And most of my kills have been under 100 yds, some of them alot closer, in the 30 yd range.

I still have several other rifles, if I will be hunting where longer shots might be required I will use either the 300 winny or the 338, but for most occasions I really like the 243, I have a ton of confidence in it and my ability.

Is it the right weapon for everybody? maybe not.

what do you all think a good caliber for small statured men, and a good caliber for ladies, For elk and deer.

My wife is only 5' 4" and she don't want a thunder stick loudenboomer for a rifle.
She shoots well with the 243. Would a 25 06 be a better choice a 7mm of some sort??

Bigger is better to me but if you getting good results with a 243 why not keep on using it?

Michealr

I am not of truly small stature but the rifle that I chose for myself was a Ruger compact 77 in .260 Remington.

I have never hunted nor shot at an Elk so probably to take this with a grain of salt would be wise. But I am never without an opinion.

I like the little rifle because of the naturally lite recoil of this round. It is a little heavier than a .243 but not a whole lot. The .264 diameter bullets seem to have a better bullet selection for heavy bullets than do the 25 calibre cartridges. I could not not argue against the 7-08.

I have found in my own experience that it is the absolute fit of the gun that is going to be of greater importance in felt recoil than the actual cartridge that you choose. I am not talking about the difference between a .243 and a .338 winchester but rather between a .243 and a .260 or between a .308 and 7-08. I have shot some shoulder thumpers and some have felt worse than others. Some just beat the snot out of me under the cheekbone.

I truly like the way a Ruger rifle feels and do not care for the Remingtons although I have not shot a Model 7, I have shot the BDL and did not like it. Winchesters are OK. What I like the best is a Ruger #1.

I really do like the little compact 77. It feels a little awkward shooting it in warm weather and just a tee shirt but it fits great with the warm weather gear on.

After all this rambling I would suggest anything from .243 to .260 to 7-08 to 6.5X55 in a rifle that absolutely feels go to her. I would even suggest getting the services of a good stock maker and having the rifle custom stocked. A nice laminate stock fitted just for her. You would be high on her list.

Jim B.

Two excellent and experienced hunters who I have known for quite a few years have used the .243 Winchester exclusively for scores and scores of animals. Either one of them has shot more big game than anyone else I know.

The caveat is, they've only hunted whitetails in S. Carolina and Texas, and much of their hunting has been control work for state game departments. The deer don't grow very big in any of the places they've hunted, and neither man has hunted mule deer, elk, bears, etc. But if you asked them about the .243, both of them would say that the cartridge is one heck of a killer. So experience can be narrow, though deep, as Jack O'Connor astutely observed.

I think that the .243 and calibers like it are best reserved for smallish whitetails and pronghorn, plus varmints. There are a great many bigger cartridges that I'd rather use for mule deer, bear, elk, moose, etc. Quite honestly, if you want to hunt such animals, you need to use something bigger than small cartridges.

AD

No doubt if you stick a strongly constructed bullet behind and elks shoulder, a 243 will kill him, if all is perfect.

I, normally require a caliber and bullet capable of driving through the animals I hunt from one end to the other and capable of breaking both shoulders....I find that a combo that always meets with success...

I have hunted and killed a lot of deer and elk size game with calibers that arn't recommended like a 25-35 , 30-30 or hot shot 22's. I sure learned early on to modify my hunting techniques, which tends to limit ones success rate.....

From my own experiences, I decided not to shoot anything bigger than a javelina unless my bullet was at least 150 grn. still moving at least 1900 fps.

So, from there I figured my max range for everthing from 30/30 to 7 mm rem mag.

michaelr,

Why not consider a lightweight BAR or 742? The gas operated semi-auto will take a lot of the sting out of a cartridge. One in .30-06 would be no problem for a man or woman even with the light magnum loads. Wear plenty of hearing protection during practice and recoil will probably never become an issue.

I personally know what small calibers are capable off. I am fond of the 25-06.

I strongly agree with Ray and 1894. Shit happens everywhere and will at some point in time. A bullet that will break a shoulder, and then some, as a minimum. Even if you don't like shoulder shots.
It is one thing to be picky and choosy about your shots. But on big dollar hunts, I find most guys aren't so picky.

Daryl