I have a lease wherein the neighbors are such jetks that they won't let us recover game that gets over the fence. I am looking for a bullet that creates havoc with behind the shoulder hits yet does not exit thereby using all it's energy to destroy vital tissue. Shots will invarialy be less than 125 yards and placement will generally be exactly where I want it. I prefer not to hit any large bone as these deer are very tasty. Cartridges include the 22-250, 6MM Remington, 270 Winchester and my 308. My first choice in the 6MM is the 85 grain Sierra BTHP though I have had this bullet exit many times it does drop them. The deer in question at most will weigh 140 pounds but mostly under a hundred pounds.

rickt300
I would do 2 things.
One: Try some Nosler Ballistic Tips, or some http://www.hawkbullets.com with the .035jkts.
I have had more, one shot, drop to the shot kills, with Hawk bullets, than any others.

Two: Place your hunting stands away from the boundary between your lease and your neighbor.
If a great hunting area is against the boundary, place your hunting blind right against the fence. That way the shot game will have a tendency to run away from the boundary fence.

Rick,

In 308, I was using the Sako Super Hammerhead for a while in 150gr. About hald the time I recovered bullets. I have some at home but keep forgetting to post the photo's.

Also shoot Sako 90gr Gamehead in my 243. If there is a similar bullet in the calibers you listed then it may be worth a try.

Incidentally, for quick dropping animals the Barnes TSX in 308 is devastating. It will always exit on game of this size, but the punch really does knock the wind out of them. The added bonus is also that there is very little meat damage.

My mate has also been using the 85gr TSX in 243 for the last couple of months on Fallow deer and hhe says they really get the beast down quick.

Regards,

FB

Rick,

I would use an Amax or Vmax for that need.

Good Luck!

Reloader

The problem with a bullet that is designed to be soft enough not to exit is that there is very little margin for error. There is often a tendency for erratic results with projectiles blowing up on the surface and failing to penetrate to the vitals.
A light projectile might work great on a specific size deer, at a specific range, with a specific shot placement but what if one of the criteria is not spot on?
Do you hold off and not shoot? Do you end up with a wounded deer (because you may not have realised that it wasnt a perfect situation)?
My personal preference is for a soft point bullet of mid to heavy weight (for calibre) that has a wide recommended impact velocity. Chances are it will work for most if not all situations.
Using up all the energy in the animal isnt what kills it. As an example the projectile that blows up on the surface has used all its energy but wont kill effectively. On the other hand a projectile that expands, holds together and exits after taking out vital organs will do a great job (assuming correct calibre for game) but has 'wasted' energy after passing through.

Sounds like you need Nosler BTs or Hornady SSTs. I shot two feral goats with 150 grain SSTs in a .308. One shot was quartering to at ~20 yards (in front of shoulder, through the brisket), the other was straight broadside at ~60 yards (through the ribs, no heavy bone). Neither bullet exited, but they made bloody messes of the innards. These were fired from a 15" barrel (Encore pistol), so the velocity at these closer ranges should simulate those you'll get at 100-125.

I have used BTs in 6mm (90gr) 6.5mm (100 and 120gr) and 7mm - 120gr.

The 7mm 120gr open the quickest and leave considerably larger exits if they do exit. I have had failures to exit on small deer 200yards quartering away and large deer 300yard rib shot. Both were under the far skin.

It will do what you want - no doubt about it. It will also be reliable on those size deer providing you don't push it above 3,000fps ie out of a 7mm08 or 7x57

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I have a lease wherein the neighbors are such jetks that they won't let us recover game that gets over the fence.

How often does this happen? What is the state law regarding retrieval of game?

quote:

I am looking for a bullet that creates havoc with behind the shoulder hits yet does not exit thereby using all it's energy to destroy vital tissue.

Try any round nosed bullet from Rem corelokt, Hornady or Sierra. These round nosed bullets open violently due to their soft lead noses. They expand to large diameters and might be what you are looking for.

On the other hand, and as previously mentioned, The TSX might just be the ticket. Small hole in, small hole out, little damage to meat and to date, including my brother and me, not one animal has traveled over a couple of feet before dropping. It is my current bullet of choice.

quote:

Shots will invarialy be less than 125 yards and placement will generally be exactly where I want it. I prefer not to hit any large bone as these deer are very tasty.

The last part is the only complicating factor. If you really want to dump an animal, the high point shoulder is the way to go. I fully appreciate your desire to not mess up much meat, but at 125 yards or less, it wouldn't be hard to precisely put a bullet in the spine. And with a small diameter bullet, I don't think there'd be a lot of lost meat...IMO.

quote:

Cartridges include the 22-250, 6MM Remington, 270 Winchester and my 308. My first choice in the 6MM is the 85 grain Sierra BTHP though I have had this bullet exit many times it does drop them. The deer in question at most will weigh 140 pounds but mostly under a hundred pounds

Then I'll go out on a limb here and ask this (which by the way is what a lot of meat hunters do according to their accounts), will you head shoot them? Or is that not something you'd do? Or, put a bullet at the base of skull at top of neck.

Personally, I don't.

If you want to try to assure a non-exit, then DO NOT use Ballistic Tips. Although BT's expand very rapidly, the solid base penetrates amazingly well. On broadside shots with bullets like a 90 grain BT in your 6mm or a 150 grain BT in your .308, you can expect a lot of complete penetrations on a Texas-sized whitetail.

You're going to need to go with a pure varmint bullet (and assure that all shots are in the thorax). You might look at the Speer TNT in each of the calibers, or the Sierra Blitzking. If you shoot directly into the thorax without having to penetrate a shoulder, any of these bullets will put a deer on the ground quickly and permanently.

As far as soft bullets having very little margin for error it seems to me the entire rib cage is a large target. The lease is 80 acres bordered on one side by a very good fenced WMA and on the other by a large ranch and one end of it comes within fifty yards of a lake. It is very thick and when hunting pressure gets heavy many deer go into it's thickest. The ranch is relativly open also as cattle have been run on it for years. Rarely does this property get more than 400 yards wide and there are plenty of deer that live in the briar and blackberry thickets. X bullets are out as I definitly care about what may be beyond the deer I am shooting at The SST is starting to look good as is the VMax. I have some of Speer's 308 caliber 130 grain swaged hollow points and their same weight bullet designed for the 30-30. I also have some 80 grain PSP's from Remington that I could try in the 6MM. I'll leave the 270 out of this project for this year as it is sighted in with 150 grain Partitions to be used on an upcoming elk hunt.

Nosler BT's will usually exit, but drop them very fast. Go light for caliber and fast, but not so light that you use one rated as a varmit class bullet. Nosler's web site breaks them down into varmit and hunting BT's. Waiting for a quartering or dead on facing shot could help too...more deer to stop the bullet. Light fast bullets tend to stun the animal for a few seconds, resulting in the 'dropped at the shot' comments we hear. If the bullet is well placed, they bleed out before recovering, if not 'I hit it hard, it went straight down, then ran off when I got halfway there'!

To minimize meat loss and put them down in their tracks, you really need to use neck/head shots, and those come with their own issues...

In Texas, you are NOT allowed to cross onto another's property without permission, even to recover wounded game. The local game warden might be able to help convince them to relent though. One is required to make 'every effort' to recover wounded/downed game.

Putting a stand on a fenceline is usually considered the rudest (but legal) thing you can do...tantamount to advertising that you are going to shoot over the fence at game on their property. It is a source of MANY neighbor feuds down here! There was even a bill in our state legislature to restrict hunting stands to more than 50 yards (or so) from marked property lines. I don't think it passed though...

My preferred rifle for your situation would be the .308, you might as well put the largest hole in them that you can, especially with ranges being so short. The .308 will deliver a lot of energy on target with a real nice hole. IMO, I would prefer almost all of the energy to be used on the vitals, with just a skosh being left to punch through the hide on the offside. .308-caliber holes in deer with large exit wounds mean a very fast bleedout. I've seen more deer get knocked over in a single shot with a .30-06 than with a .270 or .280. It all comes down to bullets which expand like there's no tomorrow, I happen to like the Remington Corelokt for some reason, it seems to open relatively quick on thin skinned game. The aformentioned .30-06 has been fed a steady diet of Hornady Interlocks as well, with great results. I've had so-so experiences with the Nosler B-Tip, I've seen a bunch come apart, but then again I used them for the longest time compared to other bullets.

rickety-300



I agree alot with what Mickey has to say and my suggestion would be the .308 Win. with a Remington .150 gr. Bronze Point. They shoot like a house-afire in my .30/06 and drop Roe Deer like they got stuck by Thor's Hammer. They also open up pretty quick, not a pretty sight on the fawns but those paper thin ribs don't get eaten (what's left of them) either.

We have the same lease issues here in Europe and personally, while a pain in the butt I call the adjacent lease owner when a game animal expires on his lease. I don't want to see him collecting ANYTHING from my side of the propety line without being notified first either!

Same with the boundary stands/high seats, not politcally correct and sure to create a raised eyebrow but they are nevertheless still on YOUR lease.

Since you have indicated that your shots are pretty carefully selected, another tid-bit (although not always a sure thing) is to attempt to shoot the deer facing into your lease. Yes. animals act differntly to the shot but many will bolt straight back into your lease, not over the fence into the neighbor's.

Now enter the Twilight Zone.....I cannot do this but have a hunting buddy who is an absolute master at putting a bullet (mostly 5.6mm) right under the skull into the neck. They disappear from your scope view so fast you wonder if they were there in the first place! I've never seen a deer take even one step after being shot when Klaus was pulling the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
... I am looking for a bullet that creates havoc with behind the shoulder hits yet does not exit thereby using all it's energy to destroy vital tissue. Shots will invarialy be less than 125 yards and placement will generally be exactly where I want it. ... The deer in question at most will weigh 140 pounds but mostly under a hundred pounds.

Hey Rick, If by any chance you would be open to buying or trading for just "1 more" rifle, I can give you some nearly guaranteed Non-Exit info.

If you would get either a 357Mag or 44Mag Rifle of some sort and use either 158gr Hornady XTPs(357Mag), the 200gr XTPs(44Mag) or the 240gr XTPs(44Mag) and keep your shots "into" a shoulder, I can say with great confidence your chance of getting an Exit inside 125yds is as close to Zero as possible. They will open and present such a w-i-d-e frontal area that there just isn't enough remaining energy to punch through the hide. The off-side hide will catch the Bullet and tear loose from the carcass as if an umbrella had been opened under the skin, but retain the expanded bullet.

You could also use a 444Mar with the same XTPs.

I've always demanded "Exits", so even though the 357Mag and 44Mag killed cleanly, they just didn't have everything " I " wanted. I have a 444Mar now and it has some 240gr XTPs ready to go. I sure do not expect them to Exit.
---

I've thought about your quesion all day and believe you have me stumped, good question. Obviouslly the faster the Impact Velocity, the less opportunity there will be for the Bullet to Exit because it will Expand more. And you don't want one so light and/or fragile that it fails to penetrate enough to kill cleanly. Interesting question for those specific cartridges.

I could tell you how some of the Varmint Bullets behave in things I've killed, but none of those kills were Deer. So, it would be pure speculation about how they would do on a Deer and that often confuses things.

I have a 50 caliber inline that I use saboted 44 caliber bullets in. I could load the 200 grain XTP in a CVA sabot on top of 100 grains of pyrodex for maybe 1800 fps. Looking around I have some Speer 200 grain hollow points in 44 caliber. I know these are soft as they open wide from my 44 mag revolver pushed to 1350 fps. Funny you should say anything about stands next to fences, The ranchers sons have five of them on the east property line and I gaurantee his sons shoot onto our property, it's where the deer are. In fact I set up my ground blinds with a strong thought on my safety regarding the other guys. I think the first deer will succumb to the 22-250 pushing 60 grain Hornady hp's around 3500 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I have a 50 caliber inline that I use saboted 44 caliber bullets in. I could load the 200 grain XTP in a CVA sabot on top of 100 grains of pyrodex for maybe 1800 fps. Looking around I have some Speer 200 grain hollow points in 44 caliber. I know these are soft as they open wide from my 44 mag revolver pushed to 1350 fps.

Hey Rick, That should work just fine for you if you choose to try it at some point.

I can't say what bullets won't exit. I've had ballistic tips go through and they are "tinfoil" as have Sierras.

What I can tell you is the recommendation for round nose bullets is a good one. I hunt an area that is incredibly steep and when in that area use a .308 with 180gr rn bullets. They don't make it to the bottom.

Depending on your skill level, a high neck shot is quite effective at dropping them where they stand. If you have good knowledge of bullet flight path, you should be able to hit the spot out to at least 100 yards. The spine, and the jugulars are in close proximity to each other at this point. Although I've hit the spine only, I've never hit just a juglar and missed the spine when I could pick my shot. They just collapse. I have also taken some head shots but they are much harder to do perfectly and there is not much room for error. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Rick,

I would use an Amax or Vmax for that need.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Yup.....me too.

Since Hornady's site is soo slow I checked out the Vmax and Amax on Midway's site. From what Icould gather from there the Amax isa match version of the Vmax and both are very quick openers. I am thinking of trying the heaviest Vmax in 6MM which I think weighs 75 grains. Are the A and V max bullets greatly different from the 75 grain Hollow points from Speer, Hornady and Sierra?

You're gonna want to stay away from the neck shots previously mentioned and stick with your rib shots then. I shot a springbuck in Africa in the neck with a 50 grain V-max out of a .223 and it exited with little trouble. I shot a blackbuck in Texas with a 40 grain V-max. A broadside shot only took out one lung. A long trailing job later and I ended it with a shot behind the ear. That worked very well and didn't exit.

Like I mentioned above, consider those 150 grain SSTs in your .308. They were very accurate in my pistol and didn't exit those goats.

Rickt300,

Your requirements are quoted below.

"won't let us recover game that gets over the fence."

"I am looking for a bullet that creates havoc with behind the shoulder hits yet does not exit"

"I prefer not to hit any large bone as these deer are very tasty."

I would say that your asking for a lot. I would use a load and shot placement than anchors the game. That way I could determine that it died a humane death. That would trump all other considerations for me.

I would use my 358 with the 180 Speer and hit them in the shoulder. Thats a sure thing.

"For shots that struck the shoulder (170/222, or 76.6 %), the mean distance traveled was 3 yards."

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/game_study.html

I used my 270win with many, many one shot kills, without an exit hole, using a 130BTSP (Sierra cat#1820) loaded to about 3000fps. However Mule deer are a little larger, around 200 or so. The Boatail seams to allow the lead to seperate from the case a little easier. I know, I know, people talk about exits and holding together, however if a bullet leaves the body it takes energy with it. No way around that! Sometimes those smaller pieces of the case do a number on larger arteries or if you miss, a hole in the heart or lung. Usually the animal goes "absolutly know where" That initial shock does a number....

I guess I can live with an exit hole as long as the bullet has spent itself and has little mass left. I notice that Hornady has a 95 grain SST in 6MM that I can get going to more than 3000 fps.I want enough mass that as the bullet comes apart it destroys everything in the rib cage to the far side. A fast opening 75 or 80 grain bullet might just be perfect. Using the above listed rifles I have not had a deer travel more than 30 yards using regular deer bullets but a friend using a 30-30 has lost two to the fenceline. He definitly gets exit holes. I am goint to get him to try one of my rifles this year.

Interesting to note that you have to look carefully for bullets that won't exit when others feel they need 4 feet of penetration on deer. I will go to my local bullet emporium and pick out some of the suggested bullets and get some range time in. Thanks.

I use Sierra 168 grain hollowpoints out of my .308. I shoot the feral hogs down in texas with them. Haven't had one run yet. I do shoot them in the head though. Don't waste any meat either.

I have shot a lot of deer with 125 serrias out of a 06 at about 3200fps they really make a mess out of the insides. The deer don't move vary far at all.

But if I when am worried about deer running off I use a tougher bullet shoot them through the shoulders and drop them on the spot. Better a little meat ruined then a total lost of the deer.

The sorts of things you're wrestling with are what a stalker in the South of the UK has to contend with. I wrestle with this a lot.

First off you should not be taking shots that require a bullet not to exit to be safe. All shots taken need to hit a safe backstop and be in a safe direction. Seeking to minimise risk by reducing exits or lethality of exits is a reasonable thing to do but do not rely on it.

With deer from 100-150lbs a 6mm rem with 90gr BT is going to exit on a pure broadside chest shot not involving shoulders or any angle.

Hit the shoulder first or throw in a bit of angle and it'll like as not stay inside. I take this as an excellent compromise without the risk of bullet fragmentation (varmints) or pencelling (match bullets) IMHO Amax have a risk of complete non expansion and VMax are likely to completely expload.

Your best aid to safety is to gain angle for which a stand is excellent.

For your above mentioned situation I would look at the Hornady AMAX .308 178 grain. That is one hell of a blowup on impact bullet and under 200 yards you might see them explode like praire dogs.

Or go with a heavy barnes bullet and shoot for shoulders. I would go for the later.

It's pretty thick on this property and wanting a bullet that is pretty well spent after it does the damage to a deer is not a bad idea. On the WMA they hunt with muzzleloaders which we all know penetrate like crazy, on the ranch they shoot just about anything so it's a personal thing. I just want to know what happened to my bullet and recover what is left of it. I went to the range yesterday and could find no Vmax in 6MM but they had the 80 and 90 grain ballistic tips so I bought a box of each for testing. Going to work up some loads using H414 and AA 4350. Actually it would not bother me if the 80 grain bullet did fragment as long as it did it amongst the heart and lungs.

neck shots will do everything you want. bill439

Wow, where to start. ... how about, I think you've unecessarily limited yourself by seeking a bullet that won't exit. Sure I could give you some examples from my 3 + decades of hunting, reloading, etc. Sure I (and may other FAR more knowledgable folks on this forum) could quote you the physics and physical mechanisms of dealth my bullet. (you've already receive that and more from others) Instead I'll summarize the answer to your analysis by giving you a very real hunting situation faced every day during real hunting in North America.

Imagine you're hunting sheep or goats well above the tree line, and have finally stalked to within range of a TRUE trophy. He's magnificent - more than what you dared hope for. The problem is that the Billy/Ram is standing broadside near the start of a very steep drop of a couple hundred feet or so and if you don't anchor him immediately with that first shot, he'll likely slip off the drop and you'll ruin the trophy of a lifetime. What do you do? Where do you aim?

The guidance most often given by guides everywhere is to wack him dead-on the shoulder, break him down on the spot, and possibly also take the spine oout. not the sort of job I'd ask of a Ballistic Tip, ANY rapidly expanding bullet, or even a standard thin walled bullet - they will likely fail to do the job (though W-tails are lighter), and they will certainly ruin most of the front quarter.

My choice is a highly accurate, tough/deep penetrating bullet. My choice is the Barnes TSX for hunting. In your situation, I'd just pick diferent a shot placement than I otherwise would. An exit hole would likely be irrelevent. - EB

That scenario is far removed from the one I am talking about. But in yours a shoulder hit even if it exits does certainly not gaurantee an anchored animal and neither does a spine hit if a bit behind the shoulder. In fact I would say a fast expanding bullet thru the chest would work as well as anything, ballistic tip or not.

Lasr year I shot coyote at 157 yds with a 264 win mag factory power point. It did not exit. Sure put that coyote down though.
The same load shot through the hardest part od a pronghorn. Go figure.

Hi
A few years ago I started using Federal Preium 130 Barnes X In my 270 win Since I have shot 10 whitetails All have fallen in their tracks. All bullets have passed through but the internal damage was great.
I've been killing deer for 40 yrs with allmaner of weapons and bullets and nothing kills like a Barnes X.

If you insist on no pass through try aflat nosr bullet designed for a 30-30 ie. 170 gr speer loaded in your 308. I shot this combo for a while in heavy cover it will amazr you what happes inside your deer.

Dr B

My vote would be your .270 loaded with a soft 130 (ballistic tip, SST, etc...). The bullet will most likely exit, but this combo is legendary for bang-flops on deer sized game.

-Lou

I can't believe it, the old doctor that has been leasing the property to us for 12 years died and his sons inherited it and put the land up for sale after returning our money. Sounds like an exit ruined everything.

The only sure fire drop em where they stand shot I know of, besides a brain or spine shot, is a shot I made a few years ago. I was shooting the Remington copper solid 12ga slugs, and hit a little low in the boiler room. The slug ended up cutting both front legs right off the deer. He was still trying to scoot along on his back legs, but I caught up to him fast and put the finisher in him. I guarantee he wouldn't have made it over any fence though lol.

A few years ago, just for yuks, I loaded some 170 grain Remington flat-nosed CLs intended for my .30-30 into .30-06 cases and cranked them up to about 2500 - 2600 fps. I'd read about this in a couple of Jack O'Connor books and was intrigued by his stories of instantaneous kills, so I wanted to see for myself.

Well, those bullets hit deer like a million-pound shithammer. I mean RIGHT DOWN RIGHT NOW! I only shot three, two of which were fairly small does, but the result was the same each time. I would not recommend this technique for anything othr than broadside or slight quartering-away shots. Since these bullets were designed to expand at fairly low velocities, the exit wounds were, in a word, impressive.

I think I used IMR 3031, and I don't recall how much. Accuracy was pretty sad, but plenty good enough for the 75 yard shots I was taking from that particular stand.

Just some food for thought.

RXM

Hornady loads their 110 grain V-Max bullet in their TAP LE ammo. A side shot on a deer would probably not come out the other side.

.22-250...a friend who shoots the same Texas deer you do uses a .223 with Winchester 64 grain Power Points. He, his wife and two kids have taken about a dozen deer with that rifle. Only one deer made it more than one step and that was a whole 30 yards. Ranges were 30-150 yards.

.243...my wife always used a Weatherby Vanguard for hunting when we lived in Texas. I loaded 90 grain Nosler Petitions to 3100 fps. Front half of the bullet blows up and the back half punches a nice little hole out the other side. Of the 7 deer and two antelope taken with that load only one deer went more than a few steps..and that was a 250 yard going up the side of the next mesa shot. And that one only made it fifty yards from the time of the first hit.

Bad neighbors...been there done that. I lost 3 deer while hunting that way...makes you sick. One with a bow and two with cast bullets in handguns. Learned the hard way that you shoot a deer in the bone with lead and in the lungs with JHPs.

Bob

.270 with 130 gr nos BT will do the job no worries.