After reading another discussion on a width restriction, I think that, if Pennsylvania was so dead set on improving its herd, that's the way they should have gone. Point restrictions don't seem to be the way to go if you wish to improve the genetics of your deer. Here's a pair of bucks from my property. Neither one is injured. Neither rack is broken in any manner. I estimate both bucks to be 3.5 - 4.5 years old.

Thank you, Gary Alt for all you've done for us, here in PA.

Both are legal in my hunting area in western PA.
I agree with you on the width idea, but should a rack be outside the ears to be legal? And how do you get inferior genetics out? I have been pondering these two questions myself, and look forward to your thoughts.

I'm in western PA as well. Both are legal. But they're also misfits. Is either one of those deer waht you would wish to burn your only buck tag on?? Me either. In fact, the buck in the second pic got passed on a couple times in archery season last year by a friend of mine. He said, "what would I want to shoot that ugly thing for?"

I think the width restriction makes waaay more sense than 3 or 4 point to a side.

Strut,

I agree fully. For a bunch of years now, Arkansas has been on a 3pt. rule where a buck has to have at least 3 pts. on one side to be legal. The Commission slightly came to its senses and changed the reg. to allow a kid under 16 to be able to kill any buck for his first buck. "First buck, any buck". That helps knock out some spikes and the kid has a much more enjoyable hunt.

The 3 pt. rule in many areas has produced the same results as you demonstrate from your photos; one side remaining a spike that increases in length with age, no brow tines, and sometimes remaining a spike when mature as in the 4.5yr. old spike I killed 2 years ago.

I would much prefer a heavy mass, multi-point, narrow spread, "high horn" buck to what you have there on your place. From looking at the body size on those two, nutrition certainly isn't a problem. They appear to be in the age class you estimate so that leaves inferior genetics as the culprit for the malformed racks.

I am curious to know what the pt. restriction is in your part of PA.??? and is it statewide?

Merg

Strut,

On our place we target culls like that. In your case, this year they may so old and wise that it may be impossible to get them killed.
And that won't be the cure all cuz you have their offspring comming along.

Fighting genetics is a hard battle. The best way to really see some change is to really hammer the herd. Taking equal numbers of both sexes down to where you have really depleted the population. If there are sufficient deer numbers in the surrounding area, and your habitat is good, you will be surprised at how quick your spot will repopulate, hopefully with a superior gene pool compared to what you had. It helps to do some supplemental feeding as back off on the hunting pressure the following year or two after a big kill. It sounds really scary but it has been used on a big club or two that I know of in Arkansas and worked.

When I say hammer the herd, that does not mean killing the decent bucks like six to ten pointers in the 1.5 and 2.5 age class. For some folks it takes some discipline to pass on an immature buck with eight pts.

I passed a decent 2.5 yr. 8 pt. two years ago and he hung around the place. My buddy who owns the property saw him twice last year and said "You won't pass on him this year". But someone else must have killed him because he disappeared before I could get up there. That's part of the frustration of managing a small area with hunters nearby that can get a shot at a buck you have tried to save for the next year.

they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

quote:

Originally posted by merganser1:
Strut,

I am curious to know what the pt. restriction is in your part of PA.??? and is it statewide?

Merg

I am in a "4-point on one side" area. The majority of the state is a 3-point to a side reg.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

Can't say as that I'd be too interested in putting a 3.5 or 4.5 year deer in my freezer. Does are for eating. Bucks are for the wall. My philosophy anyways.

I think the excessive harvesting of does and months long archery and muzzle loading seasons have screwed up PA deer hunting. At least for me they have.

ps Have you seen that bear again lately?

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

Can't say as that I'd be too interested in putting a 3.5 or 4.5 year deer in my freezer. Does are for eating. Bucks are for the wall. My philosophy anyways.

That might be one reason you have so many genetically defecient bucks. the only way to get 'good' genetics is to remove the culls! they look healthy and fat. They will eat just fine!

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I think the excessive harvesting of does and months long archery and muzzle loading seasons have screwed up PA deer hunting. At least for me they have.

ps Have you seen that bear again lately?

I have not.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

Can't say as that I'd be too interested in putting a 3.5 or 4.5 year deer in my freezer. Does are for eating. Bucks are for the wall. My philosophy anyways.

That might be one reason you have so many genetically defecient bucks. the only way to get 'good' genetics is to remove the culls! they look healthy and fat. They will eat just fine!

Problem is, the culls cannot be removed when they're easy pickings (1.5 or 2.5 years old) because they are not legal bucks. Now that they are primarily nocturnal, they'll be hard to kill even if you wanted to burn your only tag on them.

I would classify both of them 'jesses' and shoot them on site to keep them from spreading their inferior bloodlines.
Shit begets shit--whether it has 2 or 4 legs.

quote:

Can't say as that I'd be too interested in putting a 3.5 or 4.5 year deer in my freezer. Does are for eating. Bucks are for the wall. My philosophy anyways.

quote:

they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

And therein lies the rub. The other rub lies in what is considered genetically superior. Is it the buck with the big rack that may be more susceptible to disease and really cold winters, or the one with the 3-point total rack that is much hardier? The "trophy" hunters believe one way and meat hunters another.

I am in the meat hunter camp. I spent my time chasing antlers until I have enough 10 pointers and up that I don't know what to do with the racks anymore. Sure can't eat them. I will admit that I am extremely fortunate to live in an area that has great antler growth potential and plentiful deer. Maybe I would see it differently if I had not seen a buck in a couple years. Don't know.

Tell ya what..................

You come to my property in November and hunt meat. I'll come to your place to hunt antlers.

Deal??

Strut, I think you got Larry over a barrel! Just make sure he takes a doe or two. Merg

1st buck was my ohio buck last year, second my kentucky buck last year. Both about average for where I hunt.

Must suck to have to settle for "average".

Beautiful bucks, both. The kind PA guys only see in wet dreams.

This thread has to be driving the all-Deer-knowing, only-a-$$$$HUGE$$$$-Study-will-do, Genetics-don't-mean-spit, a real HERO to all true Deer Hunters - tony mandel - absolutely crazy!

I completely agree with those of you who mention the Inferior Genetic Bucks need to be removed from the herd. Also agree that they eat just fine, even with the poooooor Genetics. When they become Nocturnal, as Strut mentioned, they become a real tough Trophy Buck. I'd "guess" Strut is about 40+ days away from having a 10 day opportunity of Killing them. Five days either side of 20Nov10(15Nov10-25Nov10) will possibly have them easing around during the daylight hours. Nocturnal Deer are always a sure enough challenge for someone who is interested in a Deer worthy of a "Trophy Reputation(Nocturnal)", whether or not they have a HUGE WHOPPER Rack.

Agree the Does can also carry Inferior Genetics, but it is difficult to tell which ones they are. But Killing a bunch of Does really does help the overall herd.

I noticed the "Second Set" of eyes in the background on Strut's #2 flick. Wonder how BIG it was?

Nice flicks. Where did all the White Sand come from?

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

Can't say as that I'd be too interested in putting a 3.5 or 4.5 year deer in my freezer. Does are for eating. Bucks are for the wall. My philosophy anyways.

3 1/2 & 4 1/2 year old bucks are fine eating.

No deer is good eating if it is taken after it has been run half to death.

Some of the worst eating deer I have taken have been does. I've never had a buck that was "bad eating"

Here is a 219# (dressed) 4 1/2 year old buck I shot in 2004. I heart shot him when he was calm & he only went about 12 yds.

He was taken on November 4th, before the chase phase got under way. Some of the best venison I ever ate.

Just to give you some idea of the size of that buck, I'm 5'10" & weighed about 285# in that picture.




I shot this 142# (dressed) 3 1/2 year old buck W/a shot behind the jaw. I pulled the shot a bit @ 240yds. He dropped in his tracks.

I took him on November 15th of 2009, well after the chase phase. He was "run down" a bit & skinny as he!!, but still great eating.




BTW: That big 4-point IS an example of poor genes needing to be removed from the herd. The quality of the bucks on my 106 acres improved immediately in the folowing years. He WAS the dominant buck & had plenty of scars to show for it. He would not allow any mature bucks to stay in the area. I never saw any "rack" bucks on my place until he was removed.

I had been after this guy for 3 years & he even had a scar from one of my bullets. I had mistaken the angle on a 240yd shot I took @ him in 2001. It shows on his mounted cape.

Look closely & you will see a dark streak running diagonally down & to the left on the side of his neck.

We had so much "history after 3 years of "cat & mouse" that I felt I owed him the repect of a
shoulder mount.





I took this average 3 1/2 year old 8-point the following year W/a quartering away shot @ 250yds. He went about 10 yds or maybe less. He "ate" just fine too.



All of these bucks were "jaw aged" by my taxidermist..

Hey strut. I really would take you up on the offer since my daughter normally goes to school in PA, but for this year I have two problems. The first is the landowner where I normally hunt got silly and allowed the local power company to start putting up windmills. Not much of anything around right now, including coyotes. The second thing is that my daughter is doing foreign study this semester and I would like to combine the trip.

Hit me up next year, seriously. I just bought a place in Missouri as well and don't know what it has yet. I always wanted to hunt PA, if not for deer, then bear. I'd gladly go hunting with 95% of the people on this board. There are some mighty nice folks on here.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'd "guess" Strut is about 40+ days away from having a 10 day opportunity of Killing them. Five days either side of 20Nov10(15Nov10-25Nov10) will possibly have them easing around during the daylight hours.

You would "guess" wrong. PA is one of or the only state where you cannot hunt deer during the rut. Archery ends Nov. 12 and firearm season comes in Nov.29, effectively eliminating rut hunts.The good old PA Game Commission.....asses, all.

[quote}Originally posted by Hot Core: I noticed the "Second Set" of eyes in the background on Strut's #2 flick. Wonder how BIG it was?[/QUOTE]

It's a little 8-pointer. The deer flock to a pile of corn in the white sand.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Hey strut. I really would take you up on the offer since my daughter normally goes to school in PA, but for this year I have two problems. The first is the landowner where I normally hunt got silly and allowed the local power company to start putting up windmills. Not much of anything around right now, including coyotes. The second thing is that my daughter is doing foreign study this semester and I would like to combine the trip.

Hit me up next year, seriously. I just bought a place in Missouri as well and don't know what it has yet. I always wanted to hunt PA, if not for deer, then bear. I'd gladly go hunting with 95% of the people on this board. There are some mighty nice folks on here.

I imagine you'd be highly unimpressed with the deer hunting unless you just like a change of scenery. I sincerely do appreciate your offer.

Now bears.............we have those. And bigguns!! I took a 21 15/16" B&C boar in 2006. He was 677 pounds. Have trailcam pics of one from this April that is every bit that or more. Only bummer is we have an entire 3 days of season. Yep.......3. And there's no hounds or baiting allowed. You hunt your balls off and once in a blue moon you get lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'd "guess" Strut is about 40+ days away from having a 10 day opportunity of Killing them. Five days either side of 20Nov10(15Nov10-25Nov10) will possibly have them easing around during the daylight hours.

You would "guess" wrong. PA is one of or the only state where you cannot hunt deer during the rut. Archery ends Nov. 12 and firearm season comes in Nov.29, effectively eliminating rut hunts.The good old PA Game Commission.....asses, all.

Boooo! It has been awhile since I've seen the Highway Kill statistics, but I seem to remember PA was always near the top of the list. I'm at a complete loss on "Why?" they would prevent Deer Hunting during the Rut. Especially with all the Deer you all have. Darn shame for sure.

Then your Nocturnal Deer are indeed pretty much impossible to Kill. Might be able to do a Man Drive by slinking along through the woods in a slow zig-zag and kicks it up for another guy(s). But the trick then would be finding a few buddies who would agree to Kill them if they spot them. I can see where that puts you in a tough spot for sure.

quote:

It's a little 8-pointer. The deer flock to a pile of corn in the white sand.

That sand sure looks cold to me.

A 677 Black Bear - Man-O-Man - what a WHOPPER!!! I've drug enough Bears out(much smaller) to realize they do not come with good "handles" on them. How did you ever manage to get that thing out of the woods? I'll "guess" a sled and a tractor, plus guys to help get it onto the sled.

Best of luck on the Hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
A 677 Black Bear - Man-O-Man - what a WHOPPER!!! I've drug enough Bears out(much smaller) to realize they do not come with good "handles" on them. How did you ever manage to get that thing out of the woods? I'll "guess" a sled and a tractor, plus guys to help get it onto the sled.

Best of luck on the Hunt.

Luckily............he fell in a place that I could get my Jeep Cherokee close to. Took 8 or 9 guys to get him the 1 foot up onto my hitch hauler. Bent the hitch hauler and killed the rear springs flat for the rest of the Jeep's life.

"cannot hunt during the rut". Wow, that explains why we saw so many road kills in PA coming back from a trip to Maine on year. Live and dead deer all over the road at night and it was in late November.

quote:

Originally posted by merganser1:
"cannot hunt during the rut". Wow, that explains why we saw so many road kills in PA coming back from a trip to Maine on year. Live and dead deer all over the road at night and it was in late November.

Roadkill numbers for PA run in the 40000 - 50000 range each year.

Too bad the two bucks in my OP couldn't end up included in that figure.

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
... Bent the hitch hauler and killed the rear springs flat for the rest of the Jeep's life.

Bragger!

Yah, Kansas is the same way. The rifle season starts the Wednesday after Thanksgiving. But Muzzleloader season is in September, so we gladly fight the mosquitos, chiggars and ticks.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
they don't have nice racks, but they look like they would 'eat' just fine! I wack them for my freezer.

I agree, you can't eat antlers so I fail to understand why antlers are so attractive or why anyone thinks they are an important genetic characteristic to anyone but an antler hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
Must suck to have to settle for "average".

Beautiful bucks, both. The kind PA guys only see in wet dreams.

Only antler hunters who have stopped jerking off to pictures like...

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:


I agree, you can't eat antlers so I fail to understand why antlers are so attractive or why anyone thinks they are an important genetic characteristic to anyone but an antler hunter.

AD

Which I am..........or would like to be were it that I lived somewhere deer grew them in respectable quantity.

Allen
I think you are missing the point. It is the challenge, the pursuit of the unobtainable that drives some people (mostly men) on. I can get all the meat I want at the store.

California has some pretty bad management issues with their deer herd too. Very few, if any, does are shot since doe tags aren't readily given out. And, if I remember correctly, regulations say a buck must be a fork horn to be legal. The majority of California deer stay fork horns their entire life and, in some areas, they stay spikes all their life. We have some huge spikes running around that will never get touched and plenty of young fork horns that get taken out too early.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
California has some pretty bad management issues with their deer herd too. Very few, if any, does are shot since doe tags aren't readily given out. And, if I remember correctly, regulations say a buck must be a fork horn to be legal. The majority of California deer stay fork horns their entire life and, in some areas, they stay spikes all their life. We have some huge spikes running around that will never get touched and plenty of young fork horns that get taken out too early.

Very similar to the PA predicament.

A few years back, I had a 6-pointer running my ridge. He was 6-8 years old. A MASSIVE deer with a massive rack.......just not legal to kill. He ran my hill, kicked the dogcrap out of genetically superior (but physically smaller) bucks and bred my does for years. How can the PGC justify that in the name of a better herd???