This is a slightly tongue-in-cheek report of some doe culling adventures that have been too much fun not to share. Ryan Campbell, who posts here, has an uncle with a high fenced property that has needed some, well actually a lot of, does culled from it the past couple of years. This has spawned a motley group of guys who lent a trigger finger to the effort and in the process has started calling itself the Texas Doe Hunters Association. Our motto is TITS UP! Our sign is four upraised fingers. (Believe it or not our group actually has a disproportionate number of post-graduate degrees.) We include biologists, criminal justice employees, law enforcement personnel, a lawyer, some folks we aren’t really sure what they do, and the occasional hanger-on.

Weapons deployed this year ranged from a .204 Ruger to a .375 H&H. Both of these worked quite well though one doe did run about 50 yards after a high lung hit with the H&H (a .416 might be called for next year; this was the first time something has run from the H&H). We also deployed some long range weaponry including a .264 Win Mag (which was used to make a 600 yard kill last year) and a 7mm STW. On the other side, Ryan used a Kimber .45 to make a 10 yard kill from a bow stand.

We had two assaults on the doe population this year: one on Jan 2, 3, & 4 and the other Jan 23, 24, & 25. I didn’t participate the first weekend but did the second. Here’s some highlights from the second weekend.

A few of us arrived late Thursday night and began hunting Friday morning. Only one doe was killed by four of us. We were trying to be as careful as possible not to inadvertently pop nubbin/button bucks and that caution slowed us down a bit, and we were well behind the pace we needed to be on to take 30 does by Sunday morning. Friday night wasn’t much better with only three being killed. But reinforcements arrived after dinner so we deployed a much better force on Saturday morning. But the weather didn’t cooperate. In the cold, blustery, windy conditions, we got some, but we were still behind schedule. Saturday afternoon improved matters. The weather cleared. A group of us driving the ranch got one that afternoon and could have had another if we’d been quicker. Saturday night the pace picked up considerably. With 8 of us on the trigger we got serious on the whack and stack and killed about 10. One fellow’s dad got three. However, one was wounded and couldn’t be immediately located. So all the hunters except me, the landowner, and the skinner all took out on the trail of the wounded deer. Apparently, I had been anointed camp bitch to cook dinner while they stumbled around in the woods in the dark looking for a deer.

So having been left alone with all the alcohol, I obliged and gulped scotch while preparing dinner. Put potatoes in microwave, gulp scotch. Open cans, pour into pots, gulp scotch. Saute onions, gulp scotch. Fry steaks, gulp scotch. Nothing caught fire, and I drank a lot of scotch. Maybe camp bitch isn’t such a bad job after all, and I didn’t have to do the dishes.

Sunday morning we again assaulted the does of the ranch taking another 8, which brought our total to about thirty for the weekend though that total was helped along a great deal by the one fellow’s dad taking another three. (There’s a lesson here: don’t bet against the old guy with the well-used .270 Win.)

All in all, this was a pretty good result though we had to play some catch up the last two hunts to get there. This was another year of great fun, camaraderie, and killing. Many does died, much food and drink was consumed, and a good time was had by all (except the does).

Till next year!

You guys had ENTIRELY too much fun!

Our place in Junction needs exactly that. Doe thinning!

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
Our place in Junction needs exactly that. Doe thinning!

If you'll clean 'em, I'll shoot 'em.

Me and my wife would be more than happy to join that fine sounding organization, what are the dues.

We could use 10 does a year, and as it is right now I have no moral hang ups about begging doe hunts from folks.

I am not being Tongue-In-Cheek about this, we would be willing to come out, I will help with the skinning and we would do all the cooking.

We use a lot of deer meat yearly and even though we do get opportunities to shoot a few during season, we are usually limited to how many we can take, either because of management programs on the property or because of county limits.

One other point that is not Tongue-In-Cheek, is that with some of the new limits being proposed for many counties, a continueing decline in the number of hunters in Texas, an increasing number of hunters switching to strictly buck hunting only, white tails breeding like rats, and the probability of CWD reaching Texas which will probably mean the end of the use of feeders, the deer herd in many areas of the state is way above the carrying capacity of the available range.

Those does need to be thinned back, but it is difficult to find folks willing to work a deal out for folks just interested in shooting does at a reasonable price. JMO.

But if any volunteers are needed for future TexasDoeHunter's Association hunt, please feel free to contact me.

LWD,

Glad you had a good time. Never thought I'd see the day I'd track a doe shot with an H&H. She was hit fairly solid too.

Anyway, glad you had a good time. Cant wait till next year.

Crazyhorse, PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
You guys had ENTIRELY too much fun!

Yes, yes we did!

quote:

If you'll clean 'em, I'll shoot 'em.

Uh, no! Hiring a local guy to help with the cleaning was the best money we spent. Getting ten deer down before breakfast turns breakfast into brunch at least!

quote:

Our place in Junction needs exactly that. Doe thinning!

So many places do. This is an MLD property so many deer must be taken off each year. For you non-Texans, that's a program run by Parks and Wildlife Department that gets you a very long gun season, October through Mid Feb, but imposes very strict and stringent herd survey and harvest requirements.

I'm continually amazed at the places where guys put $2500 blinds everywhere, feed year round, and spend the off season studying the photos from a dozen Cuddeback game cameras but won't cull some does to control the population because "We only hunt trophy bucks." Right, but you've got so many deer on your place that they are destroying the habitat. Maybe the TDHA needs to do a tour. You call, we kill.

quote:

Never thought I'd see the day I'd track a doe shot with an [.375] H&H. She was hit fairly solid too.

That was a first for me too. She was very alert and on guard the whole time she was out, and while the shot was a bit high, over the lungs and under the spine, it was right behind the shoulder, and 300 grains of TSX goodness ought to put the whack on any Texas whitetail doe.

LWD

I shot a small eight point buck a few years back at about 40 yards with a 250 grain Barnes "X" bulet out of my 375 H&H.

At the shot that sucker clamped his tail to his ass and covered 60 yards before going off a high bank down into a creek.

I had to gut him down in the creek, his nose was just touching the water, and when I opened his chest, the top 1/3rd. of his heart was gone.

I just picked what was left out of the chest cavity.

On another subject in your post, over the past few months I have heard several hunters state that they were never going to shoot a doe again, that they were only after a trophy buck.

In most places, low fence places, the sex ratio is so far out of whack as to not even be funny, I have heard of places with a ratio of 1 buck to 10 to 12 does.

That is why over the past 3 or 4 years all I try to shoot is does.

Looks like you had a good time! Thanks for sharing..

I'm also amazed at the guys I know that won't shoot does. I know several guys that have prime leases and they only hunt bucks.
What they don't realize is that a lot of these ranches are as good as they are because a lot of does were weeded out over the years.
I'm only 36 but I can remember when it was very common to see 20+ does to every buck in areas where you now see 2 to 1 or better.
It's called management and it's an ongoing process. It doesn't end once you get your herd ratio the way you want it.
In Bob Ramsey's book, "As Texas As It Gets", he describes how many deer were in the hill country of TX that were 75lbs...tops. This was in the 1940's and 1950's. There were tons of deer but no one would shoot does because of the mental image of shooting "mommy deer". He was one of the pioneers of changing this attitude and it has vastly improved the deer herd.
You still have a lot of "hunters" out there though that are just looking for bucks and don't want to pay the dues it takes to keep the ratio like it should be. Mostly because they don't realize the work it takes/took to get the kind of deer you see today. I'm not talking about deer raised in a pen, I'm talking about average 120-130class bucks that are free ranging that were unheard of in the hill country in the 1950's and 60's.

Great "report". You guys obviously know how to organize and motivate with humor. Hell, you could officialize this "association" and have chapters all over Texas. You've motivated me to whack 'em and stack 'em at the beginning of the season this year.

Our name, TDHA, is a bit of a poke at another "hunting" organization who shall remain nameless. We don't have a "journal" full of advertizements for $200,000 breeder bucks and run "hunting stories" about monster bucks killed inside a pen. We also dont sell logo's that let you advertise for us for free...
But maybe someday we'll be a huge organization that manipulates the cutoff jeans and mullet crowd into thinking they belong to a real hunting organization...haha.
Not that I'm naming names or anything.

That is too much fun. Heck, I'd pay to do some doe culling. Management is management and needs to be done.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Campbell:
Our name, TDHA, is a bit of a poke at another "hunting" organization who shall remain nameless. We don't have a "journal" full of advertizements for $200,000 breeder bucks and run "hunting stories" about monster bucks killed inside a pen. We also dont sell logo's that let you advertise for us for free...
But maybe someday we'll be a huge organization that manipulates the cutoff jeans and mullet crowd into thinking they belong to a real hunting organization...haha.
Not that I'm naming names or anything.

"Hossfly": This was a great thread until you felt the need to throw rocks. I have NO association with whom you are referring to, but we are all hunters...why do we always have to feel (and express) that WE are somehow better than THEY?

Could it be because that is the way the organization "That Shall Not Be Named" acts?

Could it be that the organization "That Shall Not Be Named" was/is and has been involved in helping create the situation as far as deer hunting in Texas goes?

Could it be because of the activities and propaganda put out by the organization "That Shall Not Be Named", that has influenced some Texas hunters to stop caring about actually tryingh to manage the deer on their properties/leases, and only concern themselves with just trying to manage the Trophy Bucks?

Should this sniping and bad mouthing contuinue, probably not, but then again, no one seemed to be having a problem with what was going on as it was all basically tongue-in-cheek until you took offence. JMO.

how do they act that offends you so?

how have they helped create "the situation" (whatever that is) in TX

are TX hunters so shallow that they can be influenced by this organization?

you may think that Ryan's post was tongue-in-cheek. It didn't sound that way to me.

And I think that "sniping and bad mouthing" (as you call it) amoung hunters is bad for us all. JMO

quote:

Posted 07 February 2009 07:12 Hide Post

how do they act that offends you so?

I am not offended, as much as I am disappointed that they have placed so much emphasis on Trophy Bucks, without putting a lot of effort, at least from what I have seen, on promoting herd management across the board.

how have they helped create "the situation" (whatever that is) in TX

Because of the emphasis on Trophy Bucks, prices for hunting deer have escalated to a point that many folks were being forced out of the sport, Before, our present economic situation.

I do not hold the "Organization That Shall Not Be Named", totally responsible, as I believe TP&W played their part also.

are TX hunters so shallow that they can be influenced by this organization?

In many cases yes they are. I can remember the days before the OTSNBN was around, and folks were happy with any deer they killed.

Now, if a deer does not score a certain B&C level, people are embarrassed to show the animal off because the Peanut Gallery will give them a lot of grief for shooting such an inferior animal.

you may think that Ryan's post was tongue-in-cheek. It didn't sound that way to me.

Some of us have a harder time interpreting words on a computer screen than others. Maybe it was not being meant Tongue-In-Cheek, maybe it was being meant in a more sarcastic manner.

And I think that "sniping and bad mouthing" (as you call it) amoung hunters is bad for us all. JMO

I agree with that to a point, the point being whether it is being done in a fun manner or being done maliciously.

"Hossfly": This was a great thread until you felt the need to throw rocks. I have NO association with whom you are referring to, but we are all hunters...why do we always have to feel (and express) that WE are somehow better than THEY?[/QUOTE]

Good lord. We are a group of serious hunters that don't take ourselves too seriously. I am not better
than anyone that is a member of the Organization that shall not be named.
However, I am smart enough to see that organization for what it is. I'm not talking about the common, regular member of the organization that believes he's joined a real group of hunters that promotes hunting and conservation. I am talking about the actual organization itself that promotes itself to be about hunters and conservation. It is no such thing.

It is a for profit organization that sells a lot of merchandise, logos, and memberships to folks thinking
they become "one of the boys" when they join this group.

Ask the NRA or any other non-profit group that promotes hunting, gun rights, conservation etc to show you it's books/profit/loss and they are obliged to do so. The Organization that Shall Not Be Named, is under no obligation to do so because they are for-profit.

The average memeber probably believes they are a part of a bigger group or fraternity when in reality they
are paying the salaries, benefits, and paying for the hunts of the few who run the organization. Pick up a copy of their "journal" and look at it objectively, page by page.

They guys in the post listed above are a bunch of conservation, hunting and gun rights minded guys who get
together for a good time and don't mind poking fun at "the organization". (two of which are actual biologists) If you think that's bad you should hear the way we talk to each other. Anything I've said about "the organization" pales to what gets said to you if you are slow to get up on the second morning of the hunt, or miss a shot, or any other reason we talk trash to each other. We also brutally make fun of hunting shows. Mostly by talking at a high whisper for no reason just like they do on every hunting show on tv.
Example: (with the truck engine running and immediatly after someone just shot a rifle, talking in a whisper)
"Wow, that was a great shot. Folks, it just doesn't get any better than this. Here we were on the last
day of the hunt and this monster doe walks out. We're out here on the beautiful fillintheblank ranch where they have a lot of these monster does for you to come hunt.".......Sound familiar?
THAT is what I am refering to.

Ok, I stand corrected and withdraw my comment. Sounds like you have a good group of guys to hunt with...

I've discussed/argued the reasons for shooting does (I'm a Level 3 Management ranch as well) with people who should have common sense but many times I hear some variation of "we don't shoot our cows". Ridiculous.

Any given area of forage will only support so many deer. The question is, do you want that number to be below the absolute maximum so your deer can grow larger bodied, have better reproductive success, and have bigger antlers or do you want it to be at or above maximum so that all the deer are stunted and such conditions invite disease, starvation, and die offs. Kill Does First should be a motto!

I always ask those folks that don't want to shoot does, that when they have too many cattle for their avavilable range, do they go out and shoot all their herd bulls?

Then when they come back with, "Well No, we sell off the extra cows and calves.", I just shake my head and walk off.

Too many folks have started focusing their management programs on just the bucks.

If there are too many does on the property, it is not going to matter what the feed program is, the only way those bucks are fgoing to achieve their genetic possibility is to not have to compete with a bunch of does.

Great genetics don't mean a thing if a buck can't get enough groceries. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I always ask those folks that don't want to shoot does, that when they have too many cattle for their avavilable range, do they go out and shoot all their herd bulls?

Then when they come back with, "Well No, we sell off the extra cows and calves.", I just shake my head and walk off.

Too many folks have started focusing their management programs on just the bucks.

If there are too many does on the property, it is not going to matter what the feed program is, the only way those bucks are fgoing to achieve their genetic possibility is to not have to compete with a bunch of does.

Great genetics don't mean a thing if a buck can't get enough groceries. JMO.

Exactly.

I'm beginning to think it's a macho thing. The most glaring example is a friend of mine who's a partner in a ranch with a bunch of other guys. All of them are highly successful, Type A, macho, "my pickup's bigger, newer, shinier, more powerful than yours" types. It'd be too sissy to kill some does. It'd probably be too much work too. And they're too big a bunch of control freaks to let guys on the ranch who'd actually kill does.

Course they got so many does there's no competition to breed and the big bucks never, according to the game cameras anyway, show themselves in the light of day. They have good habitat and feed like crazy, but no one's killed anything more than good 8s and a decent 10 point since they bought the place 6 years ago.

Okay, rant over.

LWD

One of my little odd jobs that I get to do from time to time is work for a few days on a quality tun High Fence Deer Hunting ranch about an hour or so west of Fort Worth.

Now this place covers 3300 acres and is intensively managed, managed to the point that their Buck to Doe ratio, is 2 or 2.5 bucks per doe.

There are food plots planted all over the place and protein feeders and corn feeders, but with the exception of one or two areas where corn is put out to attract some of the deer out of the brush, you can drive thru big chunks of the place and never see a deer, buck or doe.

This is just my opinion of the situiation here in Texas, but I believe it is a case of who ever has the deepest pockets and is willing to pay the most will kill the biggest bucks consistently, some folks seem to think this proves that they have bigger cajones for killing such animals, to me it just means all they are after is the prestige, or supposed prestige it brings them among the envious that don't have the $$$$$$ to compete on the same level.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to kill a good buck, but I feel that especially in areas that are predominantly low fenced, if more does aren't cropped out, it is going to have a huge negative impact on the overall quality of the deer in those areas, including the bucks. JMO.

It strikes me as odd that some of these folks won't shoot does. They should come to a state that allows you a max of one deer per year - and that's if you're lucky enough to draw a tag, which happens for me about once every three years. If they went without venison in the freezer for a couple years they might be more inclined to shoot a doe or two. I'd darn sure jump at the chance. (not so subtle hint )

When I started hunting deer back in 1970, the state wide limit in Texas was 1 buck.

There were a few counties down in the hill country that had doe tags, but not a lot.

Now, in some counties, the limit is 5 deer for the season, and in all or most of those counties, you do not have to shoot a buck, they can all be does.

It is all an attitude concept.

Gatogordo has done a magnificent job managing his ranch. My Grandson and I hunted there the day after Thanksgiving. We didn't help his doe culling, but got 2 very nice bucks 45 minutes after getting there. The body sizes were much larger than we are used to and they were fat. Horns had good mass. If my wife hadn't been ill, we sure wanted to stay and kill a few doe.
Thanks again Charlie.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
When I started hunting deer back in 1970, the state wide limit in Texas was 1 buck.

You sure about that CHC? I recall that the limit in the 50's and 60's was 2 bucks. Not that I ever got more than one. But I remember clearly hunting on a friend's ranch in the mid 60's where he always shot the first buck he saw and then started looking for a trophy. This was before doe permits.

It was always at least two bucks since the 60's as far back as I can remember.

To the best of my memory, it was one buck in Young county in 1970.

I may be wrong on the state wide limit part, but do either of you remember that all of Texas did not fall under TP&W regulatory control until the early 1980's I believe, and that during the 50's thru until the 80's many counties seasons and bag limits were set buy the Commisioners Court in those counties.

I remember the leases I was on in the 70's in Young county and there were no doe tags and I don't ever remember Young having a limit of more than 1 buck until they finally got doe days up there.

Lots of things were different in the Hill country and in South Texas.

Both you and M16 will have to admit, that for the most part, deer hunting in Texas now, is quite different than it was 30 years ago, and not in just the equipment used, but in the attitudes and desires of the hunters.

There are still alot of 1 buck counties in Texas.
Butch

Yes there are, along with counties that don't allow does to be shot.

All that however is getting away from the subject, that over many areas of Texas, there are way too many does.

The properties with the MLD programs can do something about managing their numbers, it is the folks that are more interested in antlers than any other aspect of the management of their property.

All the deer on a property have to be managed, not just the bucks. JMO.

Hey,
Great dialog on the hunting and Texas deer management. My area in Texas is Marion County and we have som pretty good hunting there.
On another note; You need to splash some of the scotch into the grub!!
Bob N