There's an ominous article in today's Wall Street Journal on the rapid spread of CWD (chronic wasting disease) in deer and elk herds out of the mountain areas of the U.S. and Canada and into the Midwest. Very, very scary- for deer & elk and humans.
Posts: 9487 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 January 2002
quote:Originally posted by Dutch: Welcome to the first day of the rest of your life....... Thanks game farms! JMO, Dutch.
Dutch, am I to infer that you blame this exclusively on the game ranches?
Besides the point, I picked up a mount from my taxidermist yesterday, who read something from a renowned biologist, that basically said that all of our deer and elk herds will be 100% wiped out by CWD in the near foreseeable future, and we don't know how to stop it.
I'm thankful that I got to enjoy "the good old days".
Bill
Posts: 1169 | Location: USA | Registered: 23 January 2002
Here in Colorado CWD is getting to be a huge problem, and is only going to get worse, it appears. My son shot his first deer (doe, 95 yards, right through the pump- did I mention that I was only a little proud?) on some sort of CWD management hunt in the NE corner of the state. Colorado Division of Wildlife gave a friend of mine some doe tags to give out, with the stipulation that all deer harvested had to have the head cut off and dropped at the local DOW office to be tested. They indicated that they would test the thing and get back to you and let you know if the deer had CWD, so you might feel a little more comfortable eating it. Well, 5 1/2 months later, they let me know that it was not infected. If it took that long when they gave out a few of these tags (my buddy had 10) what's going to happen when they have several hundred or more to test?
Hunting loss aside, the impact of CWD on the rural communities in Colorado that subsist to a great extent on hunting dollars, is simply staggering. Get ready, gents, it is not likely to get better in the short future. CWD information, and where it is most prevelant, is available from the Colorado Division of Wildlife at (303)297-1192. Address is 6060 Broadway, Denver Co.
Posts: 94 | Location: Lakewood, Colorado USA | Registered: 21 May 2002
Elk "ranches" are selling the velvet covered antlers for more than the meat is worth. They are not game farms, they are manufacturies for the "asian" pharmacies.
The DNR in the state of Wisconsin recently discovered an outbreak of CWD in Central Wisconsin. What was published was a decision to totally decimate the deer herd in a 300 square mile area, estimated population of 15,000 deer will be destroyed on sight. I believe the carcases will be burnt since there have been several instances of transmission to humans(other states). This to me seems like this CWD might be a bigger problem than what was earlier discussed, since a decision of this magnitude must have been difficult to get approved. Are there any Wisconsin members in this area that can shed additional light on this subject.
[ 05-26-2002, 05:50: Message edited by: raamw ]
Posts: 2305 | Location: Monee, Ill. USA | Registered: 11 April 2001
Interesting stuff... Whats scary to me is that prions generally cannot be destroyed, even in high temp. situations or laying dormant in soil for years. This is because they are very basic forms of protiens. We have prions in our cells within our brains/spinal tissue and limph tissue... what differs is that prions that cause BSE,CWD and nvCJD ect... are mutated prions. It is interesting... they replicate by an almost mechanical means... forcing healthly prions to change shape, and causeing tunnels to form in brain tissue... it sorta looks like a black plaque... which is a fatty tissue of sorts. At any rate ... as a engineering student now... I became interested in prion related diseases after learning that a mathematician discovered a theoretical way of how the disease could spread (which turned out to be true) in a study based off of a New Guinea Cannibal tribe taken in 1955. My fiance knows more than I would, shes a med student interesting stuff though. take care
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001
raamw i live just north of this area and i dont know any more about it than what you posted:but i would like to know about the transmission to humans(in other states). i keep hearing rumurs and the dnr has said there are no knowen cases where the CWD has spread to humans.
Posts: 46 | Location: Friendship,Wis. USA | Registered: 18 November 2001
The WSJ did a good job of reporting on this. And here is a link to the WI DNR site. As you note, no one knows where this is going. This is the result of wild animals in concentrations greater than that provided for in nature, in some manner we have failed as stewards and wildlife managers for letting this happen.
quote:Originally posted by raamw: The DNR in the state of Wisconsin recently discovered an outbreak of CWD in Central Wisconsin. What was published was a decision to totally decimate the deer herd in a 300 square mile area, estimated population of 15,000 deer will be destroyed on sight. I believe the carcases will be burnt since there have been several instances of transmission to humans(other states). This to me seems like this CWD might be a bigger problem than what was earlier discussed, since a decision of this magnitude must have been difficult to get approved. Are there any Wisconsin members in this area that can shed additional light on this subject.
Posts: 207 | Location: Nicolet National Forest, WI, USA | Registered: 21 January 2002
quote:Originally posted by smallfry: Interesting stuff... I became interested in prion related diseases after learning that a mathematician discovered a theoretical way of how the disease could spread (which turned out to be true) in a study based off of a New Guinea Cannibal tribe taken in 1955. My fiance knows more than I would, shes a med student interesting stuff though. take care
It does Sound like the laughing disease that canibals get by eating contaminated human human brain tissue is similar?
CWD in Wisconsin is a challenge and hunters, once again, will have to rise to the ocassion and give of themselves unselfishly! All deer in the Eradication Zone need to be killed, read that as population "0." In the CWD Management Zone deer populations will be reduced to 10 deer per sq mile
This drastic action is to protect the herd in the rest of the state and to eliminate the disease where it is now occuring.
DNR has been rediculed by the "nay-sayers" as too drastic of an action. I think not.
Hunters need to come and help. Shooting these animals is distastefull. The solution will only lies in the hands of sport hunters and landowners.
If you can make yourslef available to help reduce this herd call the DNR @ 608-935-1945.
I question whether the wholesale slaughter of wild game is the answer. We created the problem by allowing the game farms and game managers to ship infected animals all around the country. The damage is done. We were playing God.
Now we are going to play God again. Let's slaughter every four-legged animal we can find, which will result in an over-abundant growth / source of food, which should draw any un-infected animals back into the affected area, which would then require us to slaughter every four-legged animal we can find.
A hundred years ago if game became diseased I assume it would affect a smaller area, killing that population, and the disease would have run its course. We've managed, in our infinite wisdom to totally screw up the balance of nature, again. We should all be ashamed, AND STOP PLAYING GOD!
Posts: 13922 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002
quote:Originally posted by Fred Bouwman: [QB] As you note, no one knows where this is going. This is the result of wild animals in concentrations greater than that provided for in nature, in some manner we have failed as stewards and wildlife managers for letting this happen.
Fred
However CWD is tranferred ( feces/vegetation, direct contact, consumption of deer bones, through doe milk????)
This problem is a good argument for a longer (3week) gun deer season to curb the population. The vehicles are just not reducing the population enough
You know I haven't heard of any discussion about any cases that CWD being transferred to predators (wolves Coyotes and bear) who probably feed on the dead CWD contaminated deer.
Maybe the DNR has not looked into this? Anyone else hear if someone has looked into predators getting exposed?
rh
Posts: 562 | Location: Northern Wisconsin, USA | Registered: 22 May 2002
rockhead.... yes laughing cannibal (kuru disease), fatal family insomnia, nvCJD... ect are all prion diseases. From what I understand, very little is known about what the exact vectors are, some animals can aquire them from another, but not always vice versa. For instance scrapies (the sheep form of mad cow) has been known for about 250 years... and is believed not to be transmisiable to humans, however, to cows, which in turn to humans... so its thought. Many prion diseases can lay dormant for up to 20 years, and are always fatal once the symptoms start. take care
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001
Incidentally, I don't believe that game farms were the cause of this disease. They just provided more people with the opportunity to enjoy it's benefits sooner.
As far as transmission to humans and cattle is concerned, the preliminary lab-work (petri-dish) in the Billings lab indicates that CWD does not transfer to humans or cattle. At this time, the only suspected case of prion disease caused by wildlife was a group of Kentucky squirrel hunters that used to make squirrel stew out of the whole animal, including the head.
Finally, if anyone thinks that reducing the population of deer to 10 per square mile is going to do anything, they should look at the NorthEast corner of Colorado where the disease occurs now. They'd kill to have a population of 10 per square mile. JMO, Dutch.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000
It is going to be interesting to see how many people in WI stop hunting deer because of this problem? I am sure that license numbers will drop as a result of CWD. I live and hunt about 100 miles NE of the infected area. TTS
Posts: 84 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 18 December 2001
Don't count on it. Here in NE Colorado, at the epicenter of CWD, interest in deer hunting has not changed one little bit! Sure hunters wonder about it, exchange heresay, test their animals, and consider the uncertain future of deer hunting in general. But it doesn't stop us.
At present and without further knowledge, the cure seems to threaten deer hunting as much as the disease.
I acquainted a fellow last week who is a microbiologist/immunoligist involved in developing a (non-leathal) test for the disease. And also testing and serching for genetically resistant deer to this disease. His opinion on CWD is that once you get past all the finger pointing and ignorant speculation, the fact is that CWD will certainly get worse before it gets better.
IMHO, it's gonna be a while if we ever see the end of this tunnel.
Smallfry, you are correct that prions are the transmitting agent and that they are protein. You are incorrect in stating that they are all but impossible to destroy. As protein they are inactivated by any agents that denature protein. The content of your message leads me to believe you are quoting the McAlvany Health Alert , published by their own statements " for mavericks who are willing to explore and implement alternate preventative or curative approaches, " etc. It is obvious that the intent of spreading the "non-destructive" nature of prions is to scare everybody out of eating any kind of meat. That , plus quoting Neal Bernard( I refuse to call him doctor), the poster boy of PETA, renders the whole topic a animal rights issue. You have to hand it to them. If there were no safe way to eat meat, most would not consume it. Thus, the ultimate scare tactic.
Redbird... I am actually quoting no one, but if you wish to point a quote out for me feel free. Off the top of my head, school and a few statements from my fiance is about as far as can go on the subject... other then that I know nothing about it. I will ask my fiance about the "McAlvany" whatever it is... maybe she knows something about it? Is it a medical journal or just something you subscribe to... apparently you have read it. Yes "As protein they are inactivated by any agents that denature protein." And cockroach(s) can be killed by anything that can kill a cockroach. Is'nt that a given statement? but maybe I am not following. Take care SF
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001
When the nvCJD was at its height in the UK, we were advised against shallow or fast frying certain cuts of meat and meat products. I seem to recall that to be totally safe, the meat was supposed to be heated to above (i think) 150C for a couple of hours ie Oven Roasted.
Although feeding infected cattle feed was thought to be the primary vector for the disease in cattle, despite all the measures put in place, a small number of BSE' cases are still recorded each year. This to me suggests we still do not 100% understand the way the disease is transmitted.
In the States, how come it has taken till now to show in the deer/elk population? Some areas have had intensive sheep farming for over a hundred years?
Posts: 5684 | Location: North Wales UK | Registered: 22 May 2002
quote:Originally posted by Pete E: Although feeding infected cattle feed was thought to be the primary vector for the disease in cattle, despite all the measures put in place, a small number of BSE' cases are still recorded each year. This to me suggests we still do not 100% understand the way the disease is transmitted.
In the States, how come it has taken till now to show in the deer/elk population? Some areas have had intensive sheep farming for over a hundred years?
Here are my thoughts, I don't know if they hold water
I was thinking that if CWD is an inherent genetic defect that affects a small percentage of the population. When populations are low the # of animals affected would be also low so easily missed. However in the case of Wisconsin where for various reasons there has been an explosion of the deer population in recent years, the percentage may be the same but actual #'s of infected animals increased. Add in the increased awareness of the problem which I suspect lead the Wisconsin Department of Natural resources to look more carefully for the problem. I suspect the problem was there before, we just did not see it or recognize it.
Posts: 562 | Location: Northern Wisconsin, USA | Registered: 22 May 2002
Your theory makes sense when I look at what I saw in NE Sawyer County this past season.
When I hunted there in the 80's, deer concentrations were low, probably around 10 deer per square mile if my memory of the DNR stats is correct. I was amazed at the concentration of sign this past year and the DNR was reporting something like 23-25 deer/square mile. We also saw many more deer.
One obvious change is the baiting. Is it possible that year-round baiters have doubled the deer densities in the years since baiting was legalized? Seems far-fetched, but how else do we explain a stable population all of a sudden doubling? The natural food sources have not significantly changed (ie, massive change in logging or ornamental shrub planting, etc).
I think that there were many things that contributed. Several easy winters, a short gun season, and no doubt feeding deer (I have seen feed piles that are more like compost piles - huge volumes of corn/potatoes etc) have all contributed to the large population of deer in Wisconsin. I don't think that there is only one factor to point fingers at.
Posts: 562 | Location: Northern Wisconsin, USA | Registered: 22 May 2002
Yea, but...I've been hunting deer in WI since 1973 and the gun season was 9 days then, too. And we periodically have had mild winters back-to-back or even three in a row without doubling the density. So nothing really new there.
And besides all that, the gun kill in the 70's was in the 100,000 range, if memory serves and that still short gun season now accounts for what, 300,000 - 500,000???
If we're looking for variables that have changed, that would increase the deer population, it still seems like food is the wildcard. I had a local from Minoqua tell me he thinks the retirees feeding year-round is making the suburban population in that area boom. Doesn't explain the boom in the boonies, however (back to the bait piles).
Look, I'm brainstorming. I don't know what I'm talking about on any scientific level. I'm trying to explain what I've seen in practical terms. And I'm worried about the future of deer hunting in my home state.
Smallfry , maybe I made a connection which does not exist. Yes, I have read the McAlvany Health Alert. It was brought to me by a collegue terrified by the statements made about prions. The article on mad cow disease is a piece of unscientific crap cleverly posing as science. It is obviously written by an animal rights group to try to prove that eating animals will kill you and there is nothing we can do to prevent it except not eat meat. A clever ploy. Your statements about the fact that prions can only be destroyed with very, very high heat as well as the connection with the cannibals in NG read almost as exact quotes from the article. Coincidence? You have now made two mutually inconsistent statements. The first I quoted above and the second was your agreement that prions are proteins and are "killed" by anything that denatures proteins. Both can't be correct. A denatured prion is an ineffective prion and can not transmit disease.
WoW.... redbird where did my parents go wrong? You might want to look carefully at my quantifiers!! In my MB3 class my teacher was talking about this very subject... she stated that prions GENERALLY couldnt be destroyed by a sweeping fire, and mentioned a few GENERAL comparisions of common diseases and how they are killed vs. prions. Perhaps she was wrong.
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001
A couple decades ago I swore off hunting prairie dogs because of bubonic plague, NOT! I think I'll take my chances. Maybe if a deer is doing the jitterbug and foaming at the mouth I'll reconsider touching it. I would rather take my chances with the disease than stop hunting. Looks like I'll have the fields to myself the way this thread is going.
Like you I am also guessing, I have heard that there were good deer populations in the 70's so perhaps just high population is not the answer
The reading that I have done suggests that CWD was first recognized (but not identified) in 1967 in some closely confined captive deer in Colorado. It was not until 1978 that the Wyoming state Vetrinary Laboratory found evidence of the disease in the brains of deer.
I suspect that certainly prior to 1978 , not many people knew about CWD as a disease. CWD was probably around just not identified very frequently.
The media coverage of the MAD cow scare in England may have also contributed to bringing out concerns about CWD and made the symptoms common knowledge.
Saw a poll from Wisconsin where 36% of hunters were afraid to hunt because of CWD.
Seems to me that our heritage as conservationists would dictate hunting *more* to reduce populations in areas where CWD is an issue. Just get the deer tested before you eat the meat, and don't use processors who combine your meat with others' who may not have gotten it tested.
We don't have CWD in Virginia yet but that's what I'd do here or anywhere.
Posts: 1246 | Location: Northern Virginia, USA | Registered: 02 June 2001
Smallfry, destroyed and denatured( deactivated) are two different things. For example, cooking meat denatures the proteins, it does not destroy them. Prions which are inactivated may not be destroyed but can not cause disease. As you mentioned that your fiance was a med student have her check with an expert in the Microbiology dept.
As outlined in the article above: Scrapie has been documented in sheep for over 300 years and has never been documented in a human. Basically I got the impression that people should not stop hunting out of fear.
[ 06-02-2002, 01:30: Message edited by: jeremy w ]
Well, if prions are so easily destroyed, why do the deer that are reintroduced into the original compound in Co develop CWD inspite of the fact that it has been intensively decontaminated, including the removal of 6 inches of topsoil. Must not be that easy.
I see nothing inconsistent in smallfry's statements, he wasn't writing a dissertation for pete's sake. If you think that CWD is a peta plot you are underinformed about the severity of the problem.
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001
Personally, I consider CWD a wildlife problem, not a human health problem. Whole tribes of people at BSE infected meats (including head-cheese and sausages made from brain and spinal matter), for over a decade. In the end, we are talking about hundreds (out of well over 100 million) that will eventually get sick.
We think.
On the other hand, of the nine different variants of Scrapie, none seem to have ever transferred to humans.
We think.
In the end, crossing species barriers seems pretty difficult for prions, and CWD does not appear to be an exception. It does, however, seem exceptionally easy to transfer within species. FWIW, Dutch.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000
Gatogordo, the only connection between CWD and related diseases and PETA, is that PETA is trying to captilize by spreading totally erroneous pseudoscientific information on prions. No, CWD is not a PETA scare, but is a very real and serious problem. However, if PETA can instill the concept that any infected meat is totally unsafe to eat and you will die, and that all meat will be eventually infected, they believe people will stop eating meat- their ultimate agenda.
Scrapie is herediatary but often skipping several generations. To eradicate these inherited brain condts. all family group members must be killed. In wildlife situation that means area clearance of the species. But what perimeters, wild deer don't respect county boundaries. The UK evidence of any cross species infection is inconclusive /unproven; a fertile ground for scaremongering. If you don't eat the brain, or chew the raw backbone don't worry! It's a minefield of scaremongering and ill-informed public perception that is the real threat to "life as we know it."
Posts: 337 | Location: Devon UK | Registered: 21 March 2002
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