hi everyone!
i�m planning a hunting trip to alaska on next spring. now i finaly have a problem. i have to buy more powerful rifle than my existing ones. in your opinion: wich is the best caliber of these:
( i don�t know what is the typical shooting distanse, but let�s say 0-250 yards)
-338 win mag
-375 H&H
-416 Rigby (or rem mag)
-458 Win mag

do you prefer a "light" bullet loaded on high velocity or a heavy bullet (slow)

Welcome !!

if big bears were the main objective I would buy a cz .416 Rigby & add a synthetic stock, I would load 410 gr woodleigh RN softs. This bullet if pushed to 2550-2600 fps will be about 10 " low at 300 yards if you sight in for a 200 yard zero. For a scope I would put a 1-4 leupold VX11 or a 2-7 VX11 (if you want more of an all round type scope) both warne & CZ rings work well I have both types and get no movement with either though I prefer the look of the warne mounts.

regards PC.

P.S I have no experience whatsoever with shooting bears but that is the rig I own and shoot and that is what I would take if I were to hunt big bears only.

If your gonna buy a new rifle, I would go with the 375 or 416. Plan on shots to be within the 100yard range. Most of the guides I know do everything possible to get within that distance with the big bears.

Oh and I like a freight train for a bullet. Give me big and slow anyday of the week.

[ 12-09-2002, 06:33: Message edited by: JoelS ]

416 Rigby, flat shooting with 350gr bullets and the bigger bore over the 338 and 375s makes a big difference on big bears.

Short story. My friend got his last one, 9'7" with 7 rounds of 375H&H and Nosler partitions. The first shot broke both his front leg bones too, he still turned and ran at Bob from 150 yards down to twenty falling with each shot but getting back up and charging again. When Bobs gun was empty he single loaded and fired each other shot. He loaded the last round in his pocket, dropped to his knee and waited for him to close to twenty yards, the bullet went in under his chin and took off the top of his heart and broke his rear hip. My brother watched from half a mile away through the spotting scope, he thought Bob ran out of ammo because Bob let the bear run at him the last 50 yards before finnishing him.

They could't roll the bear over because of the shattered front legs either so they had to gut him and cut him up just to skin him out. He was running on nothing but muscle in his front legs, go figure.

One other thing he did was chamber his first round out of the mag instead of loading one on top of the full mag for the stalk. Something to think about. Alot of times they don't die fast and will often charge after being shot, they are very fast too.

Brent your story definitely means that the .416 should be chosen if bears are the main game hunted. That is one bloody tough critter !!

You would even have to say that a .458 lott might also be better again for large bears !!

pelle....it appears from your post that you don't have any experience with (or at least own) any of the calibers you mentioned and you didn't mention what kind of hunting experience you have or what kind of shape you are in...so let me mention a few things.

(1)You will probably be doing a lot of walking.

(2)You will probably be doing it over fairly rough terrain that will be thick in many spots.

(3)The weather will either be cold...wet....windy or any combination....usually all three. Get to love your hip-boots!

(4)You will have a guide who will be carrying a back-up rifle....and he probably won't let you shoot at a bear farther away than 150 yards or closer than 50 yards or at a bear that is steeply abouve you.

Given that....

(1)The 338 WinMag is a heck of a brown bear rifle that is very versatile and can be easily be had in a rifle that isn't too heavy....use 250gr bullets and you will be fine if you can shoot.

(2)The 375 H&H is a better rifle for brown bear (not a lot better, but better) but it will be heavier to carry and when the hunt is over, less verstatile for other hunting.

(3)As to either of the 416s I would forget about them unless I was doing a boat-hunt where we didn't get far from the shore...you don't need a 10-11 pound rifle.

(4)The 458 is more appropriately the guide's gun and again more, much more, than you need.

It's been 30 years since I shot my last brown bear, 2 with a 350 RemMag + one with a 338. They were all shot between 50 and 100 yards and none "needed" a 2nd shot. I have also been around when a dozen or more have been shot...most with the 338, several with the 375 and one I believe with the wildcat (at the time) 35 Whelan and the only problem I ever saw was with a fellow who had a 375 H&H that made him flinch.

PS I agree with the comment about heavy bullets that aren't moving too fast.....many times the bear will be soaking wet (as will you) and the water in the hair can do strange things to a fast moving light-weight bullets. Good luck on your hunt.

pelle,

DB BILL was right on. All I can add is try to shoot some of the larger calibers and see which one you handle the best, then........practice, practice, practice. When you think you've got it, do it some more. Expensive? Small investment compared to the price of the hunt of a lifetime. Whatever you choose, shoot it well and good luck. It's one of the great hunting experiences on the planet.

Joe

I think Bill's post sums it up pretty well, at least from my experience and that of hunting partners. One of Alaska's top brown bear outfitters, and a master guide himself-Dick Gunlogson, has used a 338 for nearly 40yrs now. Others, like Jim Rosenbruch have had great success with larger calibers. The 375 is tough to beat, just load it with 300gr or heavier bullets and get some practice in before making the trip.

i dont have a ton of experience here but have killed over or been on about 10 brownie kills. my brother drew a wonderful brownie permit that holds very big bears. and yes it was wet miserable tremendous winds and just ugly the whole time.. up until this time we carried everything from 300 win mags to 300wthrby to .338 wm. well this permit was for huge bears not in land grizz which are smaller but often meaner. he opted for a 416 remington from remingtons custom shop in left hand. he uses a life preserver to shoot from the bench with and its quite funny to watch. on this trip i made quite good friends with one of the guys that stays with me for weeks when hes in Ak. R+R guide service out of anchorage alaska runs a good show with 5-9 clints in the spring and same in the fall. the owner took him out personally at the end of the hunt becasue we hadnt connected yet and was determined to fill the permit. he shot the bear with a frames from about 100 yds. off of a dead whale. with 1 shot. my brother said the guide looked over and said what was that your shooting again? the bear squared out over 10ft and is somewhere in b+C (cant remeber) any way the guides have been switching over to the 416 rem on a regular basis and they see a lot of bears killed every year. if you can handle the recoil this gun seems more and more popular up here. others will certainly work. oh yea i have a 375 hh and the guides say they work just fine, but there is just something about that 416 that just ends it right then and there. thats what the pros say that i hang around.

AKDude, I seen the pics at Boondocks in Eagle River, that bear is huge! I can't remember the story Shawn told me exactly, I'll bet that whale STUNK! Something a little extra about those 416s, not sure what but it has quite an edge over the others.

My brother killed a 8'6" sow on the same trip that Bob got his 9'7" bear. This sow was shot 2 more times by Bob after my brother emptied his 338WM at 150 yards, she never charged though. This was over about 75 miles South of King Salmon.

I carry my Ruger 416wby hunting every season and it's 11 lbs, a little heavier but not a problem at all.

Here's a little 9'3" shot about 5 miles away from me by Brian then my brother, both with 338wm and 250X bullets. First shot went a little high, right through the rt nostril, jaw, in the chest, out the rear leg and he droped, got back up and Derrick finished him in the heart broadside.

The 338 kills them dead, but sometimes a bigger one would be better, just never know when that might be is all.

I have to agree with most here that a .416 is probably the ticket ballistically. BUT, I think a stainless Winchester Model 70 in .375 would be a great rifle for your purposes and definitely more cost effective than some rifles mentioned above. The virtues of a stainless gun in what could be yucky conditions cannot be denied. That said, I have shot big critters in cold and wet conditions and done so with my blued Model 70 in .416 Rem Mag. A little maintenance is necessary to keep the rust away, but the gun shoots really well.
Good luck!

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

When someone I know was interested in booking an Alaska brown bear hunt the outfitters were unanimous in their opinion that a 338 with premium 250 grain bullets was the way to go.

pelle.....two other things.

1st.....while many use the term Kodiak Bear to refer to Brown Bear, it is incorrect. Kodiak is an island that has become almost synonomous (?) with Brown Bear but Brown Bear are found in many areas of coastal Alaska.

2nd.....while Brown Bear do indeed get very large you should be aware that Brown Bear guides started the practice of taking low-angle photographs of the bear client's shot...with the client posed well behind the bear. This perspective makes average size bear look big and big bear look like trucks.

A .338 is plenty of gun with premium bullets (fail safe, barnes x, etc) which is the only kind of bullet you should be using on a hunt like that. The 375 is a great bear gun IF you are comfortable with it...most are not. I would also stay away from the 458 and prefer the 416 if you want to go big.

As to the story about the charging bear, there is occasionally an animal that is difficult to kill no matter the caliber being used. That doesn't turn the exception into the rule. I think most bear hunters (especially out of state) are overgunned and somewhat uncomfortable with their rifle. Bears are incredible creatures but they are not bulletproof.

As with any animal, shot placement is much more important than the total energy or momentum of the bullet. You are much more likely to place your shot well with a .338/250 grain than some of the big bruisers you are considering. A .338 Winchester loaded with 250 grain Noslers has ample penetration and energy to terminate a brownie, and the net difference in it and, say, a .416 Rigby on an animal the size of a brownie is not significant. Do yourself a favor and buy a rifle you can both carry and shoot.

THANKS GUYS !!!!!
i�m really grateful of all information and experiences. i got more information in a day than i�ve got in couple of months from swedish gun stores.

now i have least two choise
1) winchester stainless classic/ 375 H&H (very lightweight)
2) or cz/brno /.416 rigby / mcmillan fiberclass stock
installed,

Do you prefer a basic iron sights / red dot sight/ or
rifle scope ?

Pelle,

Another thing to think about is ammo cost. While a cz550 in .416 Rigby will be cheaper than a Win Model 70 in .416 Rem MAg, ammo and/or reloading component cost differentials will quickly devour that savings. Unless you really like the heritage of the Rigby, I would strongly consider the Win. in .416 Rem.

As for scopes. I would keep it simple and make sure the rifle also has iron sights should anything go haywire with your scope. Avoid ANY scope requiring batteries. I have fixed 2.5x Leupold with a German post reticle from www.premierreticles.com on my Winchester .416 and it works great. That scope is as close to indestructable as I have ever seen. I used it on plains game in Africa to ranges out to 200 meters or so and had no problems with the low magnification. I also used it on a Bison in Canada at a range of about 20-30 feet and also had no problems. If you decide on a variable scope, you might consider a Leupold in 1.5-5x or the vari-xII scope in 1-4x. Just make sure you keep it on a low power while hunting. It would be a shame to find your self face to face with a big bruin, raise the rifle, and see only BROWN in the scope.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

JohnTheGreek

I have a brown bear hunt booked for Spring of 2004. I'm taking my .416 Remington Magnum. The rifle itself isn't exactly light but, when it comes time to use the trigger, that's the gun I want with me. The end will justify lugging the thing around.

Russ

Pelle,

do not be turned off the cost of .416 Rigby components, yoiu are in Sweden and you have the excellent Horneber brass made in Germany which you can get for your Rigby or you can get Norma Brass. In Australia .416 Rigby brass is more common than .416 Rem !!.

Get the CZ .416 Rigby or .375 H&H and mate it with a McMillan stock, you will then have a beutiful magnum action complete with double square bridges and it has a look which is totally dateless, by the way I have two CZ's and a 3rd on the way and both of them shoot better than I can and better than neally all my other rifles costing much more. Just keep it well oiled, the McMillan will look after it'self. You will not be dissapointed with the CZ.

The suggestion by John the greek to mount a 2.5x leupold compact is an excellent one !! there a great scope and 2.5x is plenty of magnification for big game, they have excellent eye releif and can handle recoil in spades, my mate and I have the mounted on our .585's and they perform great as they do on other big bores that other posters on this forum own.

[ 12-10-2002, 03:08: Message edited by: PC ]

Get one with stainless-steel and synthetic stock as the weather will be wet. Caliber size depends alot on what you can shoot accurately without flinching. A .300 mag can be very good in most hunter's hands.

The percentage of times one might need a 416 or larger might be more than some of you think, at least I get that impression.

I'm not saying the 338 and 375 are marginal, just that they can be. You are the one that will have to go into the alders after him if still has the ability and a mind to. Which caliber do you want then, I say the one that comes closest to a 12ga with slugs right from the begining. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

It seems some may underestimate this animals capabilities and it will to survive to kill what is killing it. If your guide has a 416, I would still have MINE!

Another short story. Client shoots a grizz, just an 8 footer, the bear is 200 yards away down a hill on the other side of a creek. The bear turns and charges accross the creek while the client just stands there in awe! The guide is emptying his 300 Ultra into the bear as it goes down with each shot but is up and running every time, he grabs the clients 300wby and empties his gun into the bear, then starts feeding rounds back into his own from his belt. 11 round later the bear finally stays down less than twenty FEET away. The client was froze with panic and almost ran.
Bob the guide said that everything in this bear was mush from one end to the other, the last shot went in his chest and broke his spine as he came up the hill.

Those big bore mule kickers are fine and dandy if you can handle them and shoot them accurately.

However, I'll bet most of us will shoot a 30-06 (or similar) a whole lot better. Shot placement is what puts critters down. I'll guarantee you those bears don't care what caliber you bring to Alaska. Poorly shot game, is still poorly shot game.

I'm thoroughly convinced that the need for these big magnum .375 & .416 type rifles for North American game is largely in the mind of the hunters.

How many dudes do you know of that went to Alaska bear hunting and got ate by a big grizz ?
You've got a better chance of seeing Elvis, than you do of being mauled by a grizz. Just take something you can shoot well.

I get a little weary of hearing talk about 12 gauge shotguns with slugs or buckshot (heaven forbid!) in re: to bears. I know that there's one on every corner in Alaska but that is a poor reason to buy one.

Pelle,

I've never shot a bear, or even been to Alaska for that matter. Well I have if dreams count!
But I certainly want to. (I wanna hunt buffalo in Africa, too) I already shoot a .338-06 AI. It's not quite as powerful as a .338Win Mag but still sends 250 Nosler Partitions at 2600 fps. I might be wrong, but I felt undergunned going against these big critters with it. I did some reading (it was before I found this forum) and decided why just go up one step to the .375 H&H or Ultra. I chose the .416 Rem Mag. It shoots a range of bullet weights from 300 to 410 grains. I thought the controlled round feed was the way to go, so got me a Winchester Model 70 stainless Safari Express from their custom shop via the internet. It's got a tiger stripe walnut stock to die for, although hearing about all the moisture in coastal Alaska--that might have been a mistake. It weighs 8 3\4 pounds--that's with no ammo, scope or sling. Especially with 400 grain bullets and off the bench, it kicks like the dickens! But it's not that bad from the standing position. And with the lighter weight bullets it's really fun to shoot. I'm kinda partial to Remington products so I ruled out the Rigby right away. Sorry to those here that love that caliber. I'm happy with the choice I made and can't wait to try it on game.

There's my two cents for what it's worth.

A hunter was killed just last summer on Kodiak, if memmory serves me. He's not the only one either. Another guy last year killed one with his KNIFE on Kodiak, the guy was my dads age.

A 12ga and slugs was a reference to a bigger bullet diameter. Buckshot I don't recomend, slugs would work although I know some disagree.

A guy I met that was mauled by a polar bear would agree with me too, the bear came throught the so called safetyglass in the building he worked at and grabbed him by the head, another guy grabbed the 12ga and shot the bear as it grabbed the guy by the neck and started to squeeze.

A quick search on the anchorage daily news website revealed:

This is the latest one I forgot about, on the first page.

Author: Craig Medred
Anchorage Daily News

Staff
Date: November 28, 2002
Publication: Anchorage Daily News (AK)
Page: B1

The bear came from nowhere to grab Mike Harmening by the leg as he slipped along the edge of a Hinchinbrook Island muskeg Monday looking for Sitka blacktail deer.

One minute he was the hunter. The next he found himself in the position of prey.

''I swear to God, I just saw a flash, and I was on the ground,'' the 36-year-old Anchorage surveyor said Wednesday from home, where he is recovering from bite wounds to his calf and knee.

Harmening doesn't know -- and no [Read article (fee)]

Your choice boys...

If you are not an Alaska resident you will need a guide. If I was you, I would ask the guide which one of those calibers you mention in his view is the best. More that likely the guide does not want you to bring a brand new rifle you can't shoot well, because what he wants you to do is to shoot the bear on the right place. He will be the one walking into the brush looking for the injured bear, and that's why I would recommend that you use the rifle you are most proficient with, and the best ammo you can buy. Heavy for caliber controlled-expansion bullets are better than light and fast ones.

Bears are injured with smaller calibers and the same calibers you have mentioned, too. By the way, must of the big guns that I see around here are with new Alaska hunters, or hunters that come to Alaska to hunt bears. The most popular cartridges ("all around" cartridges) in Alaska are the .30-06, .300WM, and .338WM.

The hunter mentioned in the Anchorage paper of October 28 killed the bear with a .338WM, and without having time to look through the scope. In those circumstances (at close range) gun size alone does not make a difference.

A few years ago there was a bow hunter walking on a trail looking for a grizzly to kill, and as he walked a few yards ahead of his guide he came upon a sleeping grizzly. The grizzly jumped up and charged, so the hunter dropped his bow and grabbed a loaded .338 rifle that hung on his shoulder. By then the bear was a few feet ahead, so he pointed the rifle towards the bear (no time to look through the scope), fired his rifle, and dropped to the ground in the fetal position. He was sure the bear was going to maul him, so he stood motionless for about a minute, but the bear never got to him. He then opened his eyes, raised his head to peek in the direction the bear was, and there it was on the ground dead. The 250-grain Nosler Partition had broken the bear's neck.

Brent, the guy who killed the bear on Kodiak with a knife is Gene Moe. Real nice guy. He said that after the 4th or 5th stab in the neck he felt the bear go limp. Then, because he was so pissed he grabbed his rifle and shot it. I've heard his story (from him) and I never asked what rifle he was using. Big guy who is very soft spoken but stubborn (like most alaskans I have met). He still has that buck knife and refuses to clean it and his family has banned him from hunting deer on kodiak. Oh and when he said he stabbed the bear, he said his hand went completely into the bear. I believe him.

In all respect to everybody, Pelle is asking about hunting rifles, not stopping rifles. Thats why he has to have a guide. Will a 338 or 375 kill a bear? you bet it will, if there is problems, thats why the guide is there next to him. I do carry a 458Lott and I practice all the time. Why? I dont have someone behind if things go wrong. I think we are turning this into a stopping rifle thread. I do believe that bigger is better, if you can handle it.

Russ, I also know what your saying and I like to see people hunt with the right weapon for the job. Thats why this subjuct comes up so often and is debated so hard. I would rather see some one come up with a 30-06 that he knows like the back of his hand vs a bigbore that he is new with and maybe flinch. Nothing against you pelle, but all you have to do is go the range and see people with guns that they really shouldnt be shooting.

Also there is no set standerds for bears some bears drop on the first shot some refuse to give up the ghost. I prefer to be safer than sorry but some folks cant shoot the big bores safe enough. All I got to say is if things go bad get next to the guide. He will save his own ass and accordingly save yours

Oh and as for the rabbit in monty pythons movie. thats one bad rabbit. I'd definitly have more than 1 holy hand granade. I'm thinking a MK19 granade launcher with a ma duece backing me up.

[ 12-10-2002, 08:42: Message edited by: JoelS ]

You are right Joel, a guide is paid to lead you to the game and do everything else except for taking the first shot, for the most part. Myself, I don't trust my life with anyone I don't know WELL, even if I paid him.

He will most certainly want you to shoot only a gun you can shoot well, the bigger one you can the better. If you tell him your bringing an '06 or a 458 he will wonder how well you can shoot either, for he may have to finish the buisness if you can't in either case.

Born and raised here 32 years myself, been hunting since about 7, and you Ray? Mom and Dad were born here too.

Brent, That pic you posted, who is it? I've seen it before but cant place it. If I'm right on the one I'm thinking about, its in the MatSu area.

You don't understand. This is how my luck runs. If Elvis is still kicking, I'll be the guy to see him. If anybody is going to get mauled by a big brown bear, it'll be me.

Damn russ, now thats excitement, as long as your able to post the story after your done.

Joel,

that is my younger brother Derrick, he works out at Chimo Guns for Roy quite a bit in the winter. You might have seen a pic out there. He just got back from Kodiak deer hunting over by Karluk lake. Never had the $$ to go myself.

By the way, how did the knife fight with the brown bear come about? I only remember hearing that he lived through it. Funny I was typing and my dad showed up, he reminded me of it. That other bear attack, just over a week ago! Another lucky guy too. I wonder how muck Buck knives would pay for that blade?

You must of just posted that one ahead of me while I was typing Mickey. Damn...

Brent,
gene was field dressing a deer on kodiak and I guess the bear wanted it more. His rifle was laying against a tree and all he had on him was the knife in his hand. He stood toe to toe with he bear and won. stabbed the bear about 5-6 times. Walked about 2 miles out and went to the hospital. he ended up buying the bear hide at the auction. I remember seeing the bear hide at my wifes shop and the neck had some good cut marks on it. My hats off to Mr. Moe. He didnt want to die that day.

just another additive. ive killed a brooks range grizz with a 300 wm and 180 grain nosler. rolled it twice at 100 yds took off and took another 6 bullets to eventually kill it. i didnt think it would ever die. (chasing it over mts. the whole time.) my brother shot one the next year same area same caliber(a frames). it was shot rolled, took off running and took another 4 shots. saw another killed in the same spot in the brooks range with 416 rem. dropped it stone cold. just seems to wallup em something fierce. i will carry that gun for big brownie work without a doubt.