I find it absolutely amazing how many threads there are concerning guns to be used as last chance back ups. Shotguns with slugs-with buckshot, lever guns, double rifles, big bores it never ends. I suppose in some areas of the world this is a relevant question. I have suspitions that most people discussing this don't hunt these areas much. I'm very interested what gets in to a persons head to make them worry about situations like this. I certainly don't want to turn this into an American bashing thingy but am I wrong in assuming that a lot of these posts are dominated by American members? It almost seems like the further from raw wilderness we live the more it scares us, maybe that's why there's so much discussion about survival items, last chance guns, bear spray etc. In days gone by people didn't worry about personal protection equipment so much, they carried a gun and used it if necessary--which is rarely.

I was talking to an outfitter recently. He had a client and the client stated that he could sit on a stand for hours or even days if needed to get his animal. So the outfitter said "ok I'll drop you off first in the best location and pick you up last after the other clients have been picked up."Apparently his best location was in the bottom of a valley and it got dark faster and colder than the other stands, but the client said he could stand it. This client took his 7mm mag and bear spray as back up as he was bow hunting. When the day was over the outfitter picked up the client who was in a sad mental and physical state. The client said "I've never before been so cold,lonely and scared in my entire life" The next day he refused to hunt again.

These might seem unrelated but I think it helps to illustrate how uncomfortable a lot of people really are in the woods. Perhaps this is why the plethora of discussion related to protecting ourselves against the big bad animals.

My survival equipment is geared toward spending a night in the bush whenever or wherever I need to. I carry matches, lighter, flashlight etc. but I don't worry about protecting myself from the bears and the boogeyman. I protect myself from the elements and know that if I'm ever stranded I simply have to make camp and wait til morning.

It seems like the more comfortable civilization makes us the more we fear the unknown.

Now I think I'll go and buy a slug gun or a big double rifle or maybe a really big bowie knife as a last resort.

the chef

It is not just American hunters that do this. A lot of people carry back up guns.

I am sure there is a lot of people out there not that confident in being in the woods all day and night. Not just Americans either.

I say let them carry what makes them feel good.

CC1, I was raised in the Mtns of WV. In the woods 24/7 until I was 19 and left home. If you spend enough time in the woods things over which you have no control will happen. As an example, last year I was deer hunting. I was standing at a large rock waiting on the deer. Suddenly here comes a large black bear sow with a cub from around the rock. I had a 257 Roberts and all of a sudden it felt very small indeed. My hand went to the heavily loaded Ruger 45 Bisley on my hip and I felt better. The situation worked its self out after about 15 minutes without any shooting. But needless to say I will always carry a heavy revolver for a back up........JJ

I agree that there are many people who know little about how to survive in the woods. However, if you're hunting in an area where there are dangerous animals, what is wrong with carrying a side-arm or something as backup? Just as JJ said, there are situations that come up which are unavoidable. I for one would prefer to be armed for the occassion. Personally I prefer a large-caliber handgun on my hip, but then again I don't hunt Africa. In Africa a backup gun had best be some sort of big bore.

I think this thread is going to lead in some intersting directions.

the chef

CC1, I think that this thread is already pointing in some interesting directions

hmmm...JJ_Miller, just a guess, but wouldn't your .257 Roberts have had a greater effect on a black bear than a .45 ? If it were my call, I'd have been tightening the grip on my rifle.

Now, what is the best back-up knife for defense against attacks from bears and cougars? Preferably, something with a blade length less than 12 inches, saw on top, compass and blood grooves.

It's kind of funny in a way... Many people have to have the ultimate "long range rifle" to kill their elk, and then spend the rest of the summer trying to decide what kind of bear gun they have to carry to protect themselves. They are armed head to toe, but then they end up getting lost because they forgot to ask "what are the best batteries for my GPS so I can find camp?" and have no clue how to spend a night alone in the woods. Then the local news helicopter pilot finds them after a 2 day search and he's the hero. It's moments like that that make me proud to be a hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
These might seem unrelated but I think it helps to illustrate how uncomfortable a lot of people really are in the woods. Perhaps this is why the plethora of discussion related to protecting ourselves against the big bad animals. ... It seems like the more comfortable civilization makes us the more we fear the unknown. ... maybe a really big bowie knife as a last resort...

Hey Chef, I personally get real, REAL uncomfortable in the "city" at night. And it is because I know what is going on there.

Do you use a really big "Bowie Knife" as a Chef?

CanadianLefty, no a 110 gn 25 caliber will not by any means out penatrate a 300 gn 45 Keith bullet. I have used that 45 load on 1700 lbs Bison with excellant results. No one that I know would recommend a 25 Roberts for Bison........JJ

I never understood all fo the concer either. But i guess it goes back to persoanlity types. I am an extreme risk taker at times, and it shows in my general lack of concern with dangerous stuff. I also do not live in the ehart of grizzley country or anyhting like that. But blacks, snakes, sharks, gators and other things like that are of no concern to me.

THe thing I find the most humorous is how afraid people are of wild hogs. That is just rediculous. I have killed a hog with a stick (no dogs), been withing 1' of balck bears, caught every posionous snake around, caught a bobcat with my bare hands, swam with sharks,etc. I have also done busienss with the Russain mafia and dated A LOT of red headed women. THe red heads are the only ones who scare me out of this abbreviated list. It all goes back to risk tolereance.

Hmmm a 257 roberts, could you hit a bear say um,,,, 100 yards away and make a head shot? more likely than the hand gun. I understand though that the hand gun is for close work where you might be surprised by the bear. We all know how much bears and other dangerous critters like to stalk humans so I suppose we should look over our shoulders a lot and carry big handguns or an extra slug gun. Every time I get close to a bear it runs away. Yes we can accidentally surprise them but realstically it's hard, they hear and smell so well. I think marc sais it well--dangerous things are of no concern to him. I'm still alive and so is he. Maybe it's because we are aware that danger exists in this world and we avoid or control the situation.

We were moose hunting a couple years back and buddy was calling, all of a sudden on the far side of the river a bear comes charging out of the bush. My other buddy immediately shot the bear and said wow that bear would have got the first buddy if I hadn't shot it. The buddy that was calling basically called him an idiot because of course the bear would have had to cross the river and climb a steep bank before getting close. I think a lot of peole would have shot the bear too. Danger only exists if it's close enough to hurt you. I'd be damned if I'd carry around a heavy extra gun to protect myself. If I can't shoot my rifle good enough to do it I should stay home and hide under the blankets.

CC1, the cub was between me and the sow, she showed NO INTEREST in leaving. She put on an impressive display of snapping and woofing. I know due to your oppresive firearms laws you know nothing about revolvers, take my word for it, its better than a 25 Roberts. Prehaps you should stay home under the covers before you get in over your head..................JJ

I mainly carry a back-up type gun when I am camping rather than when hunting. When it comes to protecting my family you can call me paranoid it you want but give me a 12 Ga. with Dixie slugs and I will be happy and comfortable.

quote:

THe thing I find the most humorous is how afraid people are of wild hogs.

Man, you nailed that'n!

Personally I think the best tool for self defense is located between the ears for most of us. Whatever is in my hands does backup duty, I do not carry two guns in the woods. Now and then I have two barrels.

Chief-

quote:

I'm very interested what gets in to a persons head to make them worry about situations like this.

Having been one that has asked about such things, I'd offer to head into a remote hunt unprepared is the act of a fool. No matter how many guides or PHs are with you...everyman is ultimately responciblr for himself. A wise man asks questions to make his decissions. I don't believe "scared" is a big as factor as you might believe. I know I respect the info I've gotten from Guides & PHs vs. the handfull of blowhards that offer opinons based on reading Gunns & Ammo.

I live in & work in Chicago. My fellow Chicago neighbors murder at least 2 people a day here. We don't walk around with a shotgun or .454 for backup. Because we understand our "habitat".

People from small town visit and get just as freaked out as the hunter you described. Some feel they have to have a gun to walk the streets. Same parnoia..differant boogie man.

Up there you don't get between a sow & her cubs....here you don't walk into a crack house.

Both easy mistakes for one that doesn't educate themself.

Every year prior to hunting season I take a refresher CPR & 1st aid class. Heart attacks kill more American hunters than any other cause.

Being a bowhunter, I'd prefer to NOT carry anthing other than my bow. Bit, just the same I know exactly what I can & can not do with it.

Chef - Sorry I think I addressed you as Chief

On after thought about these back-up gun questions....Just maybe they are being asked here because it's a firearms site?

It'd be rather silly to post them on The food network...

true enough, although I don't go to the foody sites. I see enough food. Like I said I find it interesting, I'm not calling you a wuss, nor looking for an argument. I do think though the amount of effort put into discussing last chance guns would be better used learning more about hunting, and the habits of the dangerous things you might encounter. There's more danger from mosquitoes etc. in a lot of places than from large game.

the chef

calgarychef1, Let me give you a situation.
I went to Alaska in August on a drop hunt in the Arctic circle. We are sleeping in tents in Bear country. I am talking big bear not the black bear.

We are hunting Caribou and there are 3 of us, and there were hunters in the area before us. The other hunters have killed Caribou and the carcases are in the area. Not only bear but wolfs are in the area. A rifle in a tent is not very maneuverable. A handgun is. We did our research for the hunt and decided a handgun for the tent was a great idea.
Yes a rifle would always be my first choice, but back to the tent, not a good choice.

While we were hunting for the Caribou, the pistol stayed in the tent, because of the amount of traveling we would be doing and we did not want the extra weight. Had we only had to walk a short distance and sit in a stand or on the ground, the handgun would of been strapped on my side. If for no other reason than to give me piece of mind.

Being in the Arctic circle 150 miles form the nearest town, and no way out is the plane that dropped you off, and it may take 4 hours to a day to get back to you in an emergency. Being prepared for anything is not being scared but smart in my book. We also had a satellite phone with us.

You know, the only time I've been out and wished I'd been carrying a pistol has been when I wanted a .22 for taking vermin or on one occasion, I had a two legged varmint that needed killin'.

I managed to get out of that situation without shot's being fired but I'd say it was as close as I ever care to get.

I havn't spent time packing out meat in AK but have in OR & Id without incedent. The two legged critters around here are way more dangerous than any other animal I've dealt with. Nate

Redhawk, I agree that your situation would warrent a gun in the tent. That's a good time to have a little defensive firepower. When I was young I spent an inordinate amount of time backpacking, we used 'go lightly methods' ie: leave no trace camping. We never carried a gun and pepper spray wasn't in use, we were ectremely careful about food odors around our tents. We cooked a long ways from the tents, absolutely no food in tents, and hung our yummy stuff between trees at night. We had bears through camp all the time and never a problem...except for the time an animal stole one of my hiking boots. Were we stupid, maybe but we also took the time to learn the habits of bears, and we didn't panic when we encountered one. Thats probably why I dont generally see the point of a back up. Like I said there are times when it makes sense, Redhawk has a good scenerio, and if I was bowhunting for grizzlies on the ground I would have someone behind me with a cannon but I wouldn't have one myself.

I carried a rifle while trapping, it was just a 22 to dispatch coyotes. Surprise! I left it against a tree just out of reach most of the time. So, I switched to a Ruger 22 auto, love it and practice a lot with it, never gets left against a tree. I carry a short barreled Ruger 44 single action when in serious bear country, never used it in self-defence, but it is not leaning against a tree. I did however, kill my first moose with it when the moose stepped out of the bush and my rifle was leaning against a tree just out of reach and I did kill a nice whitetail with it while my rifle was out of reach once. Point here is, YOU WILL DANCE WITH WHAT YOU BRUNG. The pistol may be far from ideal but it will ALWAYS be on hand.

Redhawk1,
The circumstances you mention indicate a well thought out response to a situation.

I agree quite a bit with CC1's point.

Once not long ago "on the mean streets" of a stubble field pheasant hunting in SW Kansas!
I noticed one of the members of our saturday morning stubble duck safari had the bottom of a ahoulder holster hanging out under his jacket. I quizzed him about the "hawgleg". He replied in all seriousness that he only felt secure "out in the field" with a pistol for backup.
Hmmmm...

Mike

I don't carry a backup gun while hunting just because I figure I carried enough gun to hunt with. Then again, I don't hunt with the big bears.

The only time I carry a "backup" is around the farm when I am doing work in the woods. Not because I think the woods are scarry by any means, but where I am, the wild dogs have formed packs and have become vicious. At least four times last year I had to shoot dogs in the pack that got aggressive while I was cutting wood or fixing fences. I always put the 9mm or 40s&w CZ75 in the small of my back holster for such occasions. This year, with the game warden's help, the neighbors and I are planning a dog hunting party to help take care of it.

calgarychef1, one draw back about hunting in the Arctic circle is there is not tree's to hang your food in. The only thing we saw that resembled a tree was the alders by the river about a mile away. We took MRE's for food but put the trash in a bag about 100 yards out of camp.

The second day there we had a 700 plus pound Grizzle come to within 150 yards of our camp. We back out of camp on a hill about 200 yards away from camp and just watched the bear. Had he come into camp and started tearing up the tents, we would of had to shot him, because then we would of been in a survival situation without a tent, but lucky for use he chose to move on. The reason you would be in a survival situation was, it got down to 19 degrees at night.

We woke up one morning to 4 inch's of snow and wolf tracks all through our camp.

We had wolf tags, but the closest we got to shooting one was about 600 yards away.

One thing I believe in is, if you feel you need it, take it.

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
true enough, although I don't go to the foody sites. I see enough food. Like I said I find it interesting, I'm not calling you a wuss, nor looking for an argument. I do think though the amount of effort put into discussing last chance guns would be better used learning more about hunting, and the habits of the dangerous things you might encounter. There's more danger from mosquitoes etc. in a lot of places than from large game.

the chef

No offence taken. I agree on the true danger in North America...is dear Mother nature.

I was bivy hunting for elk 3 years ago. While slowly working my way through a deadfall area on the edge of some dark timber at the treeline. One of those quick fall thunderstorms roolled in and hung on the ridge with me. when the 1st lighting strike hit about 40yrds away,I knew I needed to NOT be on that ridge.

Safety was down, pretty much straight down. Panic & one wrong move, were NOT options. I had spent most of the hunt walking out to my various spots in the company of Black bears...There is no doupt in my mind that I was in more danger on that ridge.

I only carried my bow, 3" field knife while hunting. I do carry a can of bear spray in my day pack which I leave with my pack frame should I make a kill.

I didn't pack in So. Colorado because of the extremely low chance of truely needing a back-up. Then again I asked the questions prior to that hunt.

I think hunters in the good old USofA carry sidearms in the field, because we CAN. As a hunter and a sportsman, we are also, for the most part, gun nuts. I used to carry a sidearm while bowhunting for blackbear, not becaused I was freaked-out, but because I like to carry my Model 29. Aaaahhhhh, the feel of blued steel and checkered wood grips. It's comforting. Not so much as a security measure, but as a bond between hunter and firearm. It's like a bird hunter and his dog, they put miles on together, take game together, reminisce. No offense, but you canucks dont have the same fondness, heritage, and respect for your right to keep and, yes, BEAR arms. I'm a well-armed dude, not because I'm paranoid, but because I like being well-armed.

quote:

I think hunters in the good old USofA carry sidearms in the field, because we CAN.

Ok good point!...And Yes, it is kinda cool to strap a big bore on.

I did carry my .44 mag while bowhunting in So. Africa...Not for Leopards & Lions but for Mambas & Cobras. I did most of the hunt from pit blinds in the occasional company of field mice(snake chow) that loved Rusk crumbs.

Then my 1st treestand hunt I watched a troop of Baboons climb the ajoining tree while something large moved about in the bushes????....After you get your first look at Baboon canines you know you don't want 30 of them in the same tree with you!

I had to laugh at myself this afternoon. Made a trip downtown and what was laying on the floor of the truck? I have an oak stick about 2 feet long and 1 1/2 inches in diameter. I'm very well trained in stick fighting and fully prepared to use it to even the odds if necessary.
So I guess that's my back up!!!!

the chef

Chef - Now see I would feel that the front bu mper when applied with a full gas pedal would be plenty of stopping power.

I know I'd most certainly carry a handgun while hunting and fishing in bear country if it were legal.

I personally know a fellow who could have used one last September 2004 while hunting sheep by himself. Remember the fellow from Pincher Creek who was charged by a grizzly sow in a thicket. As I understand he assumed fetal position at the last moment and was miraculously left unharmed. Myself, I'd like that decision left to me and not the bear if I were to be harmed or not.

I used to have the same attitude as chef towards bears thinking diligence, good judgement and some knowledge of bear behavior is enough to avoid an unpleasant confrontation. But after having traced some of the same footsteps of people who have been mauled or killed by bears, and been stalked within 15 feet of a bear while fishing my attitude has changed. Now I recond it would be great to be able to carry sidearms in the outdoors. At best, a pistol may only an equalizer against a charging bear, but at least it gives you some odds.
A double rifle loaded in 577T would do nicely, but it would likely compromise my casting ability while flyfishing if slung on my shoulder, so for this reason I suggest a bigbore pistol would be the way to go.

Another thing keep in mind: since AB and BC have almost eliminated the grizzly hunt, not near as many bears are being shot or shot at. Perhaps this is why bear encounters are seemingly more frequent.

Any thoughts?

GordM

I love packing a pistol when I'm backpacking or hiking. If being paraniod about bad wild animal or the bogeyman is needed as an excuse, then thats fine with me. The only time I really felt I needed it was when a big rattlesnake decided to sun itself on a slab of wood I was using as a table. There are a few things that I don't like around camp, and thats three of them.
I don't like the extra weight while hunting, so I don't pack while hunting. But then I use premimum hunting bullets, so I don't have to worry about the bullet desinigrating at the sight of a bear

I also think that last chance backup is a great excuse for carrying a gun. Also a great excuse for why you need a new gun. It's a great thread-starter to help self-justify that new purchase you're thinking about.

I haven't started fly-fishing (would like to someday), but I have a pistol that I bought to defend myself against marauding grizzlies while fly-fishing. Of course, since it was blued, I later had to buy another one in stainless.

I do backpack, and both revolvers were obviously too big to carry on a long backpacking trip, so I needed the 10mm autoloader...

And by golly I'm going to carry these neat weapons when the chance presents itself. Though I am self-conscious about appearing to be too much of a ninja-SWAT-team "cowboy", so I don't carry a sidearm or big-bore rifle hunting for grouse or woodcock; nor in the duck blind; nor bow-hunting for deer in MD/VA/WVA; etc.

I'm afraid in some cases you might be mis-identifying willful self-delusion as alarmism.

I agree, though, that I've spent an amazing number of nights in the woods, unarmed, without incident.

My sister did have to shoot a recently-released felon/crack addict after he drug her down the stairs by her hair and punched her in the face trying to rob her (at noon on Sunday after Mass in a nice neighborhood in Chicago), though, so maybe I better bring that 10mm grouse hunting.

Steve

I think there is some truth to the fact that it is a preponderance of Americans. I would cite multiple reasons:

The majority of posters in those particular threads seem to be American.

and/or

Americans own more guns per capita than most other nationalities so we sometimes use a geater variety of rationalizations to expand the collection.

and/or

We are a nation of self-defense freaks, evident in the language of most of our "deadly force" laws. Being big on deadly force and capital punishment, it seems only logical for us to problem-solve in the wild in a like manner

There's no question whatever in my mind. I NEVER step out of civilisation without a reasonbly heavy-caliber revolver, and that holds true for the decades I lived in northern Canada as well.

For quite a few years, I actually had a permit to carry in the Canadian bush, mostly because I "knew" the NCO-In-Charge of the local RCMP deatchment. After a number of years, I was simply told that "We don't issue those any more." Since I had done nothing to warrant the suspension of my permit, and since I had NEVER been asked to produce the permit (or any of the many permits I was issued for "target practice" over the decades) I simply continued to carry my guns in a discreet manner.

During the days when I DID have a bush-carry permit, my wife wanted to carry my Ruger .44 while moose hunting. "Why not?" sez I, while wondering what good the heavy handgun was going to her.

HAH! She shot a moose with her 7mm Magnum from 65 yards, fatal lung-area hit but not immediate immobility, and the rifle "failed" on the second shot. She drew the Blackhawk and killed the moose in his tracks with two cast bullets in the neck from 65 yards.

I don't argue about what she wants to carry! She also proved to me the utility of the big pistol, even if we DO have a good rifle. (She also took the pistol on after-dark visits to a variety of rough-and-ready tent-camp latrines, and ANYTHING approaching at that time would be in serious peril, believe me.)

calgarychef1,

I see no reason to rip people for trying to garner usefull info concerning their personal safety.

As far as the "last chance back up gun" I use one to back up clients on brown bear hunts. In the past I rarely carried when fishing, hiking or general camping (maybe a .22 for grouse), but this year I will be wearing my .454 Ruger(too risky when I take into account the safety of my wife and 3 year old son) when roaming our salmon streams or camping.

To imply that people of the days gone by didn't worry about their personal protection is simply foolish, of course they did and they used the best protection they could afford as do many people of modern times.

Yes there are people who are uncomfortable in the wilderness and if they don't frequent these places they should be. Every year I guide clients who are out of their element and that is one reason they hire a guide, to have a Safe and enjoyable wilderness experience. It matters not what country one originates from as I have seen people from many countries around the world who are most certainly out of their element.

You can play kung-fu with a grizzly if you want, but to expect others to share your views on safety in the woods is being a little narrow minded as is thinking safety in the woods is just an american thing.

-Ron