Arizona Game and fish commissioners are going to vote next week on a controversial subject. It seems that as people will do, there is a loophole in the archery only hunts that allows for crossbows. You need to provide a doctors "note" that you have an injury that makes the pulling and holding of classic archery equipment impossible.

The problem is, it is exponentially easier to draw an Archery Elk tag in Arizona. It is making the draw for honest and traditionally archery only guys substantially more difficult.

https://azgfd-portal-wordpress...m_source=govdelivery

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. It seems that as people will do, there is a loophole in the archery only hunts that allows for crossbows. You need to provide a doctors "note" that you have an injury that makes the pulling and holding of classic archery equipment impossible.

Doesn't seem like a loop hole.

Just a matter of law.

Whatever you want to call it. The guys that are doing this, are able bodied guys who are gaming the system.They have ruined it for those that truly have issues.

Just look at the numbers.

Blame the people that created and passed the law or regulation. Shame on anyone who does not closely scrutinize every word of proposed legislation for potential loopholes.

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Originally posted by erict:
Blame the people that created and passed the law or regulation. Shame on anyone who does not closely scrutinize every word of proposed legislation for potential loopholes.

THAT I can agree with. But shame on a 40 year old, mobile individual that goes to his Dr. for a lame excuse, just to increase his or her odds of drawing a tag.

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

. It seems that as people will do, there is a loophole in the archery only hunts that allows for crossbows. You need to provide a doctors "note" that you have an injury that makes the pulling and holding of classic archery equipment impossible.

Doesn't seem like a loop hole.

Just a matter of law.

I remember when Pope and Young did not recognize Compounds. This is stupid. It is an arrow, legalized it if you are going to allow arrows at all. However, I do not live in Arizona, and Arizonians can do what they want.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

. It seems that as people will do, there is a loophole in the archery only hunts that allows for crossbows. You need to provide a doctors "note" that you have an injury that makes the pulling and holding of classic archery equipment impossible.

Doesn't seem like a loop hole.

Just a matter of law.

I remember when Pope and Young did not recognize Compounds. This is stupid. It is an arrow, legalized it if you are going to allow arrows at all. However, I do not live in Arizona, and Arizonians can do what they want.

The real difference is the use of triggering without holding the bow drawn and the use of riflescopes. Velocities and range are not that far apart anymore.

I also think the commission should change the definition of muzzle-loaders to those rifles that are actually loaded from the muzzle.

Scope sighted, single shot rifles that can kill at 200 yards are not holding true to the original spirit of muzzle-loading rifles. A true muzzle loading rifle loads as we remember. Not with sabotted bullets and little bag powder charges. My definition would be "Must be loaded from the muzzle, using only iron sights."

They were given favorable seasons, close to the rut(s), simply because they were disadvantaged some by effective range.

Not sure if you know about a big change last hunting year, The commission outlawed the use of trail cameras.

The reason was, the trophy deer area's like the Kaibab Plateau, the Arizona strip etc, were being inundated with locals and guide services locating essentially ALL the trophy bucks. The local guys were selling SD cards with 200" giants for up to 10,000 dollars to the guide services.

Personally, I like the use of cameras. I used to put them out to just observe wildlife. But like everything else, it gets abused and laws change.

I had a PH in TZ put cameras up for Leopard hunting. I discussed my dislike of cameras on Leopards at dinner. He agreed and we did it the old fashioned way. He was glad. we didn't kill, but I've killed two using traditional methods in Zambia. Out-smarting a Leopard is not easy, but rewarding.

Why is it being proposed that R12-4-216 be repealed?

● Crossbow technology was much simpler in 1996 when the crossbow permit was initiated, but improvements in crossbow technology have advanced to a point that crossbow is no longer comparable to standard archery equipment and cannot be considered reasonable accommodation in archery-only hunts.

● Trends in OTC archery-only deer, and archery-only elk, pronghorn, and deer draw hunts show a rapid increase in the number of crossbow permit holders applying for archery-only hunts (e.g., archery elk draw applicants increased two orders of magnitude since 2015, from 32 to > 3200 applicants in 2023).

● Crossbow harvest in OTC archery-only deer hunts ranges from 5% to > 30% of total take in multiple OTC hunt units, but only 10% of archery hunters report they used a crossbow to hunt.

● OTC units closing quickly (many within the first week); harvest surveys indicate persons who use a crossbow harvest an animal 3 days shorter than standard archery equipment.

Proposed rule making to amend article 2

Crossbow Permit Checklist




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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

. It seems that as people will do, there is a loophole in the archery only hunts that allows for crossbows. You need to provide a doctors "note" that you have an injury that makes the pulling and holding of classic archery equipment impossible.

Doesn't seem like a loop hole.

Just a matter of law.

I remember when Pope and Young did not recognize Compounds. This is stupid. It is an arrow, legalized it if you are going to allow arrows at all. However, I do not live in Arizona, and Arizonians can do what they want.

The real difference is the use of triggering without holding the bow drawn and the use of riflescopes. Velocities and range are not that far apart anymore.

I also think the commission should change the definition of muzzle-loaders to those rifles that are actually loaded from the muzzle.

Scope sighted, single shot rifles that can kill at 200 yards are not holding true to the original spirit of muzzle-loading rifles. A true muzzle loading rifle loads as we remember. Not with sabotted bullets and little bag powder charges. My definition would be "Must be loaded from the muzzle, using only iron sights."

They were given favorable seasons, close to the rut(s), simply because they were disadvantaged some by effective range.

Not sure if you know about a big change last hunting year, The commission outlawed the use of trail cameras.

The reason was, the trophy deer area's like the Kaibab Plateau, the Arizona strip etc, were being inundated with locals and guide services locating essentially ALL the trophy bucks. The local guys were selling SD cards with 200" giants for up to 10,000 dollars to the guide services.

Personally, I like the use of cameras. I used to put them out to just observe wildlife. But like everything else, it gets abused and laws change.

I had a PH in TZ put cameras up for Leopard hunting. I discussed my dislike of cameras on Leopards at dinner. He agreed and we did it the old fashioned way. He was glad. we didn't kill, but I've killed two using traditional methods in Zambia. Out-smarting a Leopard is not easy, but rewarding.

Who cares it kills the same w same limitations. You do. That is fine. It is a distinction w no difference. Most bow kills are from treestands 20 plus up. Few are getting busted drawing. What you say was the same argument against compounds.

Agin, it is a misguided and arbitrary matter. Cert bows are harder to shoot, but all the YouTube biers are slinging marginal weight arrows at 100 yards on big animals. MJJ comes to mind and says he put an arrow at 100 yards against an elk heart that did not kill it. Hmmm.

Again, my vote this is ridiculous and needs to stop. However, AZ can do as its people want.

I had a guy in the industry tell me over half of the elk shot w bows are lost. I hate bows, and that goes for my own crossbow.

I would prefer AZ vote to ban bows on elk period. That is never going to happen, and so be it.

Trial cameras on the big cars help insure the right cat is killed. I am fine with that, but have no issue w you saying no cameras as long as young males are not killed.

Get rid of the special seasons. Give out the tags and let folks hunt w what they want, is best for them.

In KY we are allowed one buck all year, state wide. Who cares if I kill that buck w an arrow or a bullet. I’ll tell one thing, the two I killed w a crossbow would have died sooner w a bullet. I’ll take that.

Crossbows are heavy and clunky. Both of my rotator cuffs are torn so I cannot use my compound bow anymore. I am a stand hunter since I only have 34 acres here for deer hunting but I would not want to stalk carrying a CB. I'm sure many men are capable of it and do just that in mountainous elk country. I wouldn't want to even if I had healthy shoulders.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

. It seems that as people will do, there is a loophole in the archery only hunts that allows for crossbows. You need to provide a doctors "note" that you have an injury that makes the pulling and holding of classic archery equipment impossible.

Doesn't seem like a loop hole.

Just a matter of law.

I remember when Pope and Young did not recognize Compounds. This is stupid. It is an arrow, legalized it if you are going to allow arrows at all. However, I do not live in Arizona, and Arizonians can do what they want.

The real difference is the use of triggering without holding the bow drawn and the use of riflescopes. Velocities and range are not that far apart anymore.

I also think the commission should change the definition of muzzle-loaders to those rifles that are actually loaded from the muzzle.

Scope sighted, single shot rifles that can kill at 200 yards are not holding true to the original spirit of muzzle-loading rifles. A true muzzle loading rifle loads as we remember. Not with sabotted bullets and little bag powder charges. My definition would be "Must be loaded from the muzzle, using only iron sights."

They were given favorable seasons, close to the rut(s), simply because they were disadvantaged some by effective range.

Not sure if you know about a big change last hunting year, The commission outlawed the use of trail cameras.

The reason was, the trophy deer area's like the Kaibab Plateau, the Arizona strip etc, were being inundated with locals and guide services locating essentially ALL the trophy bucks. The local guys were selling SD cards with 200" giants for up to 10,000 dollars to the guide services.

Personally, I like the use of cameras. I used to put them out to just observe wildlife. But like everything else, it gets abused and laws change.

I had a PH in TZ put cameras up for Leopard hunting. I discussed my dislike of cameras on Leopards at dinner. He agreed and we did it the old fashioned way. He was glad. we didn't kill, but I've killed two using traditional methods in Zambia. Out-smarting a Leopard is not easy, but rewarding.

Who cares it kills the same w same limitations. You do. That is fine. It is a distinction w no difference. Most bow kills are from treestands 20 plus up. Few are getting busted drawing. What you say was the same argument against compounds.

Agin, it is a misguided and arbitrary matter. Cert bows are harder to shoot, but all the YouTube biers are slinging marginal weight arrows at 100 yards on big animals. MJJ comes to mind and says he put an arrow at 100 yards against an elk heart that did not kill it. Hmmm.

Again, my vote this is ridiculous and needs to stop. However, AZ can do as its people want.

I had a guy in the industry tell me over half of the elk shot w bows are lost. I hate bows, and that goes for my own crossbow.

I would prefer AZ vote to ban bows on elk period. That is never going to happen, and so be it.

Trial cameras on the big cars help insure the right cat is killed. I am fine with that, but have no issue w you saying no cameras as long as young males are not killed.

Get rid of the special seasons. Give out the tags and let folks hunt w what they want, is best for them.

In KY we are allowed one buck all year, state wide. Who cares if I kill that buck w an arrow or a bullet. I’ll tell one thing, the two I killed w a crossbow would have died sooner w a bullet. I’ll take that.

I care. I care because the folks that abuse effect my ability to hunt/draw, quality tags.

Comparing how you hunt, to how I hunt is apple/oranges. You say that you tree stand hunt for deer, 20 yard shots. I hunt vast open deserts and mountain ranges were good optics and patience behind them is critical.

I'll often see Deer, Elk, Pronghorn etc at distance of miles at times. Getting close enough for a shot is extremely difficult, if not impossible sometimes. I have to look on my GAIA app to try to best estimate where they are in relation to where I am. Once I leave my glassing position, I may not see the target again for hours and hours, if ever.

Getting a 20 yard archery shot at a Desert Mule Deer, I don't think I even know somebody that has. 40-80 are what's typical. THOSE 60-80's are the shots that a scoped crossbow give a hunter an obvious unfair advantage.

If a guy with a crossbow takes an Elk in the rut tag from a guy like myself, That is gaming the system. I know and agree that there are people with physical limitation that limit them from pulling and holding a bow. Those people are the ones the "CHAMP" carve out is for.

I wait my turn to draw tags, sometimes up to 30 years.

DLC in here has 28 bonus points for Elk. He's waiting his turn and wants what he wants, a tag in unit 9. That and unit 10 are likely the finest elk hunt, on the planet. (if the rut corresponds to the hunt dates)

The difference for a resident like myself for a unit 9 or 10 archery take for elk or an early rifle elk tag in the same unit(s) is a 10-15 year difference in waiting for maximum points. I drew unit 10 with 10 or 11 points, I can't remember.

Arizona Game and Fish is one of the finest and well managed game departments. Look at our trophy potential here for Elk, taking a 400" Elk (wild open country) is a very real possibility.

Our Mule Deer herd continues to produce Mule Deer in the mid to high 200 range. I killed a 201 on the Kaibab Plateau years ago.

A high 80" to low 90" Antelope here is also a very real possibility.

I love what they do and the commission acts s though I have a seat at the table.

And the right cat is killed if a PH knows his shit and can get close on a Leopard, just based on track.

Regards,

Steve