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Hunter orange and how folks think/analyse a situation can cause problems.
New guys/hunters logic (in some cases).
a. Hunters are humans
b. Hunters wear hunter orange.
c. If it's not wearing hunter orange it's not a human.
This is how some folks get shot.
That is how idiots shoot people.Those idiots can also easily shoot someone that is wearing orange as is proven by the fact that it has happened in the past and will continue to happen.There is no protection against idiots. |
| | | Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002 | 
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| Here in Australia it is not widely used, and there has been some accidental shootings, primarily by individuals not identifying their intened target first. I hunt sambar and either wear a blaze orange beanie or jacket with hood, by ridgeline. The other guys laugh, but they can see me when in the scrub and that gives me peice of mind. just my thoughts anyway.
cheers 338w |
| | | Posts: 57 | Location: vic, Aust | Registered: 19 May 2004 |
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| You're correct, there's little/no protection from idiots except being aware they are everywhere. Worse yet, they don't know they're idiots.
Each time we try to remove some of the thought process(es) and make things "easier" to figure out we create a situation where the less fortunate can eagerly circumvent the entire process and screw up.
Here's a little leap of logic I recall from a visit to an Army chow hall. Fella showed up in sneakers but no socks, ticket taker stops him and says he can't eat while barefoot. Fella says "I have shoes on", ticket taker states his superiors state that folks can't come in while bare foot, "no one can enter in bare feet, they need shoes and socks to enter", you don't have socks so therefore you're barefoot. Not the same situation as hunters and orange but one I found interesting. |
| | | Posts: 226 | Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina U.S.A. | Registered: 15 December 2003 |
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| Didn't follow your logic there--sounds what I have always heard of as "military intelligence".
If you're not part of the cure, then you're part of the problem. Hunter orange is PART of the cure. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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| Yes, I agree that hunter orange is part of the cure. We should just be careful that it's an additional part and not a replacement part. Hunting in an area where hunter orange is required does not relieve a hunter from the basic requirement to know the intended target even if it's not wearing hunter orange.
"Military intelligence", it's a whole new way of thinking:
sliding metal fasteners
wrench, rack worm adjustable
shoulder fired, gas-operated, magazine-fed, air-cooled, semi-automatic and automatic weapon, 7.62 NATO |
| | | Posts: 226 | Location: Dorchester County, South Carolina U.S.A. | Registered: 15 December 2003 |
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| erict,
Glad your a member of a fish and Game that still makes your voice heard. We need to stick together to keep hunting in N.Y. I'm also glad your against it to.
Bruce |
| | | Posts: 427 | Location: Ticonderoga NY | Registered: 19 March 2004 |
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| You guys miss the point. It's not identifying the hunter after you see him; it's seeing a hunter before you shoot that you might not see otherwise. It's as much for an aid to you as it is protection for him. It would be fantastic if we didn't need a law to make it happen, but unfortunately, there are those that will not comply if it's not a law. In this case, it's a law that hurts absolutely nothing, and has some benefit. I'll damn sure guarantee you that I'm as against laws, per se, as much as anyone, but this is a case where it's justified in order to get compliance. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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| I should have added to my previous reply, that I've almost been shot by an idiot hunter before. I believe in hunter orange for my own protection, as well.
About 35 years ago, I was deer hunting in the Missouri Ozarks. I went into the timber well before light to the spot I had previously picked out. When it was light enough to see, I became a little scared, and rightfully so. There were orange vests (they may have been red at the time) everywhere I looked. I'm thankful that I saw everybody else, and hoped they also saw me, but I thank God that a deer did not run through the middle of all of us. I would not have been shooting. I would have been hiding! |
| | | Posts: 529 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 31 January 2002 |
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Arts -
Hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that we miss the point.
You state "it's seeing a hunter before you shoot that you might not see otherwise". Well, where I'm from, one of the basic rules of firearms safety is "KNOW YOUR BACKSTOP AND WHAT'S BEYOND".
Any hunter or target shooter that doesn't take the time to heed the rule best be prepared for the resulting lawsuit.
Anyone who feels that blaze orange is for their own safety is free to wear it anytime they want.
very well said erict |
| | | Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002 |
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Any hunter or target shooter that doesn't take the time to heed the rule best be prepared for the resulting lawsuit.
Well that certainly will be comforting to a dead victim to know that. -TONY |
| | | Posts: 3269 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003 |
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| How much time is required to really know that there isn't a hunter, deliberately trying to be invisible by wearing camouflage, in your line of fire?
I was set up in open woods in Chenango County, NY one morning a few years ago, wearing a blaze orange coat and hat. A guy wearing full camo, including face paint, came in on my right a little later. He was about 80 yards away. We waved at each other and he made a sharp turn away from me into some pines, and disappeared from view. Later, two does wandered up to me from the other side and fed for a while before moving away. At lunchtime, the same guy walked up to me at the road and said, "Boy, those does stayed right on top of you for a long time!" Turns out, he only went a few yards into the pines and stayed all morning. So, he could see me, but there was no way for me to see him. A slight slope up from me to him may have made a shot of mine safe, but who knows?
All that being said, I do have one problem with making blaze a law - some jerks are going to assume that if it isn't wearing blaze, it must be OK to shoot. |
| | | Posts: 276 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: 16 December 2003 |
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| Some of you boys have verified beyond a doubt now that you don't get the point and are not going to practice this safety factor no matter what. Sad. Please stay in the east, not in the west. We don't cotton to the the non-safty approach. I won't come to the east. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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Some of you boys have verified beyond a doubt now that you don't get the point and are not going to practice this safety factor no matter what. Sad. Please stay in the east, not in the west. We don't cotton to the the non-safty approach. I won't come to the east.
I am from Alberta which is in the west and we seldom wear much blaze orange since it is not required in Alberta or B.C..Alberta used to have the blaze orange requirement but did away with it several years ago.The number of accidental shootings did not increase as a result. |
| | | Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002 |
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| Arts:I for one take offense to comments like that. As I said in earlier posts I would comply if they make It law.However I reserve the right to dress myself. It sounds like you are worried that you may need to look before you shoot like the hunters back east. Education and common sense make hunting safe, not what you wear. Bruce |
| | | Posts: 427 | Location: Ticonderoga NY | Registered: 19 March 2004 |
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| We must wear red west in moose/deer/bear hunts..its in the law RED... ok but if I wear orange (alarmcolor)which I have had sometimes,and seen often,nobody is coming to me with any complaints.Main thing is that the color is close to red,reddich and that y are clearly wisible.  If ewerybody notices that its hes own ass in dangerzone,offcourse there are some who dont care,who trusts to other hunters sight and judgement of game idefication.There have happened terrible accidents here also,in average about one / year  ..that is too m uch.So.."lets be wisible out there" Elias |
| | | Posts: 45 | Location: Finland | Registered: 09 February 2004 |
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| Here in Alabama there is an orange requirement but it's not ornerous. DEER hunters using GUNS have to wear 144 sq. Inches of the stuff above the waist OR an orange hat. If hunting from an elevated stand or in a shooting house, no orange is required.
I have an orange cargo vest that I wear to from a stand. Once on the stand, I take it off.
I don't really like wearing the stuff but I do, especially when moving. Here's a short story that tells why I wear it:
One of my hunting buds was hunting a brushy clearcut when he saw a patch of white moving through the briars. He looked through his scope and finally made out that the white he saw was the little V of his brother's tee shirt showing at the neck. Could have been a tragic accident. |
| | | Posts: 345 | Location: Dauphin Island, Alabama, USA | Registered: 01 July 2002 |
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| Pa is 250 inches front back and 125 on the head. MD is hat only. It is bullshit because, In a perfect world I should be able to put on a deer skin coat and an antler hat ,sneak through the woods and not get shot. I have never seen a whitetail deer stand 6 foot tall and walk on its hind legs. We get more guys shot in Spring turkey season running gobblers. Guys shooting the sound. Both States have good Hunter safety courses. My old man used to bust me in the head if it went up my ass when hunting, only took a couple across the head to learn real quick (like 15 minutes into the first trip). Maybe we need that training instead of more orange |
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| I gave the example of my uncle almost shooting a guy in camo. My point then was that as you are shooting at a huge buck, who is going to bother looking past the buck for someone in camo? You are less likely to get shot if you are seen. |
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| Alberta used to have the blaze orange requirement but did away with it several years ago.The number of accidental shootings did not increase as a result.Can anyone that is in favor of mandatory blaze orange explain this?Perhaps blaze orange does not make as big a difference as some people think.Either that or one would have to assume that albertans are safer hunters. |
| | | Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002 |
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I gave the example of my uncle almost shooting a guy in camo. My point then was that as you are shooting at a huge buck, who is going to bother looking past the buck for someone in camo? You are less likely to get shot if you are seen.
KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND!!! Is that not drilled into your memory? It should be drilled into the memory of anyone who uses a firearm at any time, for any reason. I do most of my hunting in New Hampshire where orange is not a requirement and I seldom wear it because, quite frankly, I feel like a target when wearing blaze orange.
People who shoot at sound aren't preferential to color, even blaze orange. |
| | | Posts: 730 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: 15 January 2003 |
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KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND
That is exactly my point. If you read my first post, the buck actually ran between my uncle and the guy in camo. With the right camo, a hunter can disappear into the country. When I have a huge buck in sight, I am not going to take the time to search every bush and tree looking for some fool in camo, and I bet you wouldn't either.
My point is that you are less likely to get shot if you are seen. |
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| You are 100% right, but these guys aren't going to be swayed by logic. They'd rather take chances. They are going to fight it no matter how much additional safety it provides. The whole damn idea is to be seen. You can be very sure of what's beyond your target and not see people in the bush that you likely would see if wearing some orange.
Stubble--I think the relatively low hunter concentration in AB is perhaps a factor. Of course hunting is big in AB, but relative to most areas in the states, it is rather low in hunter concentration, based on my admittedly limited experiences there. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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| I have been shot at while hunting. I wasn't wearing camo or Blaze. The last 3 guys around here who got shot where wearing camo. I wouldn't wear camo while rifle hunting deer or elk, I like my guts inside my chest. Blaze is also nice to help keep track of the other hunters in your party, when hunting big country. I don't think blaze is a problem, its movement that gets you caught. But the libratarian in me says "I don't want the state telling me or anyone else what to wair." My 12 year old daughter gets to hunt this year, she will be wairing blaze and so will I. If you don't want orange that should be your decision. |
| | | Posts: 135 | Location: Southern Oregon | Registered: 16 December 2003 |
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| Arts - you are correct - we are going to fight it. There is no law that prevents YOU from wearing orange - so if you feel better about it, then wear it. I don't need anyone forcing me to wear it if I choose to 'take the chance'.
If we're talking about returning home in the same condition you left in, there are several much more important steps one could take to ensure a safe return - like:
1. Stop smoking,
2. Lose weight,
3. Get in shape,
4. Wear a seatbelt,
5. Don't drink and drive,
6. Don't fall asleep at the wheel on the way to/from hunt,
7. Wear a safety strap in a treestand,
8. Unload guns before climbing into/out of stands,
etc., etc., etc.
What it all comes down to is that every choice you make is weighing chances. Blaze orange is a choice I'd like to make for myself. |
| | | Posts: 706 | Location: near Albany, NY | Registered: 06 December 2002 |
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| You certianly have the right to legally wear what you want, and I won't argue against that right. What does bother me is that you are putting 100% of your safety in the hands of other hunters without doing a thing to protect yourself. If you trust me more than I do (Scary thought eh  ) then so be it. I hope all of your hunting trips are safe. |
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If your hunting and almost shoot another hunter because he is in Camo's,Well,,Take another look around and think how fun and great the experience is and you don't really need the meat.I just don't buy it that someone is not totally aware of his surroundings and another hunter is in danger because he is in Camo.....
Jayco.
I wouldn't suggest for a second that it is forgivable to shoot AT someone because he's in camouflage. My problem is that the guy in camo could be behind a legitimate target, but has deliberately MADE HIMSELF INVISIBLE by wearing full camouflage. As a previous poster said, nobody can absolutely verify that every square foot of woods around him doesn't contain someone deliberately hiding from view.
As I stated before, I have some misgivings about making it a law, but after 36 years of hunting, I can't understand why anyone would choose not to wear at least a blaze orange cap during rifle season. |
| | | Posts: 276 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: 16 December 2003 |
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I have been shot at while hunting. I wasn't wearing camo or Blaze. The last 3 guys around here who got shot where wearing camo. I wouldn't wear camo while rifle hunting deer or elk, I like my guts inside my chest. Blaze is also nice to help keep track of the other hunters in your party, when hunting big country. I don't think blaze is a problem, its movement that gets you caught. But the libratarian in me says "I don't want the state telling me or anyone else what to wair." My 12 year old daughter gets to hunt this year, she will be wairing blaze and so will I. If you don't want orange that should be your decision.
My only problem with all that is, I feel safe wearing my blaze orange. Now if I shoot a deer and the bullet passes through the deer and kill a guy dressed in full camo that I did not see, I will be the bad guy in that situation. Me personally I look for other hunters that come into my hunting area and I look for blaze orange because it is a law here in Delaware THANK GOD! There is a place for camo IMO, like duck hunting, bow hunting but not during rifle season. Just my opinion. |
| | | Posts: 3142 | Location: Magnolia Delaware | Registered: 15 May 2004 |
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| And it's a damn good, logical opinion that you have, Redhawk! |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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It's amazing to me how many try to justify that the bullet is no longer their responsibility once it leaves the barrel.
Know your target and what's beyond - if you can't remember this simple rule, please get yourself to a hunter ed course soon.
I did not see one person try to justify or shun there responsibility once the bullet leaves the barrel. But if a hunter is in full camo and sitting next to a tree and blends right in, who is at fault? In your eyes it is the shooters. (I think not)If you paid attention in your hunters safety course, it is everyone's responsibility. I for one would NEVER go hunting without safety orange during firearm season.
Have you ever really gone hunting and seen someone in full camo? Almost impossible to see them when you know where they are at. I have had hunters walk within 5 feet of me and not even see me while bowhunting. Could you imagine if a deer ran between us during rifle season and we were 100 yards apart and I had camo on.  |
| | | Posts: 3142 | Location: Magnolia Delaware | Registered: 15 May 2004 |
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| And how many hunters in camo have you NOT seen--ones that were there? Can't answer, of course, because they weren't seen. Keep in mind, the idea behind the camo is to hide from animals that have a hell of a lot better vision than we humans, so if we're succeeding any at that endeavor, how many humans are we successfully hiding from?
It makes absolutely no sense at all to fight the idea of hunter orange (in populated areas) and the very fact that some here refuse to do it points out why, unfortunately, it must be a law instead of something voluntary. Obviously, and some here verify the fact, some people won't comply if it is voluntary, and they are the problem. Were it not for that mindset, it wouldn't have to be a law. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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| Thats right Art in populated areas. I live in the Adrondack Mt. I Can walk across the road and walk for twenty miles before I hit another road.People have been hunting safe here for years.Without orange!!!! |
| | | Posts: 427 | Location: Ticonderoga NY | Registered: 19 March 2004 |
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| Judas priest, that sure isn't what I meant by unpopulated! By unpopulated I mean where there aren't a lot of folks, like the Alaska bush or northern Canada, not the east coast of the USA. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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