Hello fellas!

I made a mistake of purchasing a varmint rifle from Rock River Arms and they cannot deliver the rifle in a reasonable time frams. See the Military bulletin board for my post.

However, I am in the process of getting my money back and wish to buy a big game rifle. I live in Ohio and have very little experience with over 30 caliber rifles. Outside of a few 22RF and several shotguns/slug guns I don't even own a centerfire rifle. My brother owns a 30-06 and I have shot it several times.

To make it short, I'm going to be a one rifle hunter, at least for the next 5 years or so if not longer. New baby, building a house, etc. I have desided on a Winchester Classic in the stainless/synthetic version. I plan on hunting elk, bear, hopefully moose and some African plains game (some time off) with this particular rifle. I have also chosen the 375 H&H and the 338 Win Mag as the two calibers of shoice for this type of game. The ammunition will most likely be factory made. From what I have found in the ballastics tables, there is very little difference in these two calibers out to 300 yards. Beyond that the 338 begins to shine.

I have heard from several people that the 375 has recoil like a big shove and the recoil from the 338 is very sharp. I am a rather recoil sensative person to be totally honest with everyone and am looking at putting a Venturi Compensator http://www.bp-tec.com on the rifle.

What is your recommendation? Please, only comment on the 338 or 375 if you have shot or own one. Thanks!

jcsabolt-2,

Let's see if I understand your question. Your never owned a CF rifle, you're "recoil sensitive", and you want to start with a 338 winny or 375 H&H?

Yes, I've owned 338's and currently own 3- 375's, but I believe, with all due respect, you should start with something smaller.

Think 270, 7mm-08, 280 rem, 308, 30-06, not 338 or 375, especially if you do not reload.

You can do a world of huntin' with these smaller calibers. When you are ready you can graduate to 338's and 375's.

Any of the above calibers would make good trade- in material when your skill level says you are ready to move up.

You must learn to walk, before you can run.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but sound advice none the less.

Regards,

Bob

[ 08-28-2002, 20:17: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Shadow,

Thanks for the reply. While I do not own a centfire rifle I do hunt with a slug gun quite a bit. Compared to my brothers 30-06 with 180gr bullets, the slug guns recoil is at least at the same level if not more so from my experience shooting it. A deer slug (1 oz. = 480gr and 1.25 oz. = 600gr) packs a whollop on game and on the shooter.

However, I understand your point completely. Rifles I would like to have would be chambered in 223 Rem, 243 Win, 7mm-08, 30-06 and 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H. I own a TC Encore 44 Mag which I could purchase a rifle barrel for under $300.

I own and shoot both. Both are Win pre-64 M70's. I would wonder if deer and similar smallish game is also going to be hunted with the same gun? Are you only going to use factory ammo, or are you planning down the road to reload? I would personally recomend getting into reloading with either of these calibers, but especially for the 375. The "good" ammo gets a little pricey, and the cost savings can add more practice time. Reloading gives you more versatility in your hunting applications.

There is little difference on paper between the two calibers. I have noticed that the 375 leaves a better impression on elk than the 338, but we are splitting hairs here. Both are potent elk medicine, and quick one shot kills are quite common and expected. I think either one would serve as a good rifle for any of the game you listed, even plainsgame. The recoil of the 338 is a little "quicker" in my rifle, compaired to the 375. I think with practice, either could be shot well without a muzzle break by nearly anyone. I personally hate muzzle breaks and don't want to hunt with them. My brother is a little recoil shy, and mostly shoots 30-06, but he prefers my 375 to my 338 as far as recoil goes, it could also be that the cartridge is "cooler" to him. The 375 will move you back farther, but at a slower rate. The 300 gr's will kick a little more than the 260-270 gr's.

Post back with more questions.

jcsabolt-2,

To me, unless you have specific use for the 375 as in Africa, I think it is much more of gun enthuiast's caliber than the 338.

For American use and for a non gun enthusiast, which is what you appear to be, I think the 338 is more practical.

You could look on the 338 Winchester as the top end of the "practicals" and the 375 H&H is the starting point to the more exotic calibers.

In M70 Stainless, the 338 will weigh less, cost less and factory ammunition will be cheaper, more available and come in a great variety.

Scope mounts will be more widely available and in a wider variety. The M70 375 does not take standard M70 mounts whereas the 338 is just like the 30/06.

Mike

jcsabolt-2,

Yes, a 12 ga slug kicks quite a bit. And if you can handle it well, then a 338 or 375 is not out of reach. However, you can and probably have fired milder 2 3/4" loads target or dove and quail loads from your shotguns before you fired up 3" mag slugs.

Well you cannot do that with a 338 or 375 factory loads, they are all "full house". Can you learn to handle the kick, yes you can, maybe.

My experiece is that about 10% of all shooters will flich with anything that goes "bang", 10% can fire anything, .577 Nitro's, 378 Weatherby's, whatever. And the rest of us 80% can learn to shoot hard kickers with practice. Reloading helps because the 338 or 375 can be loaded down until you can handle it.

Yes, you can handle a 12 ga slug, but how many do you fire from a bench when sighting in? 10 rounds maybe 20? By practice with a 375 or 338 I mean a minimum of 250 rounds from the bench, sitting, prone, off hand, kneeling, et al. BEFORE you ever go hunting with it.

If you cannot answer that question, set your sights a little lower, please.

You and your quarry will enjoy the experience more.

Regards,

Bob

BigBore,

I may hunt deer size game with this rifle, but it would not be my first choice.

As for reloading...I kind of do, kind of don't reload. I bought a starter kit from RCBS in 1993 for my Ruger P90 in 45 ACP. It just took way too long to load ammunition. I'd love to have a Dillon 550B or 650 progressive press! However, I think in this case the rifle will have to come first.

What differences, if any, do you see in the cartridges performance and ballastics in the 300-400 yard range. I realize this is getting out there. I probably wouldn't take a shot beyond 300, but if there was a bull of a life time in that 300-400 yard range I'd be awfully tempted to take it.

Also forgot to mention I'd probably scope it with a Leupold 1.5-6X or 2-7X VXII or used VXIII.

[ 08-28-2002, 20:43: Message edited by: jcsabolt-2 ]

One of the reloading manuals I have Lyman 47? mentions that they consider the 338 as one of the most versatile and alround calibers you can have - they mention that if you can learn to get past the 30-06 recoil factor then it would make a fine rifle - I have one and usually shoot a 270(160 gr) at the range along with the 338. There is more recoil and its noticeable but its really up to you - if you are recoil sensitive - then you have a challenge to overcome and the game you shoot deserves your best.

jcsabolt-2,

You seem like someone who wants to learn. The limiting factor when shooting greater than 300 yds. is the loose nut behind the trigger (you) not the rifle or cartridge per say.

Will a 338 or 375 kill game past 300 yds. Is a bulls butt beef? Can you, with your load, in your rifle kill past 300 yds?

Don't know, and neither do you, yet.

Don't know why I what to do this, but I'll make you an offer.

I have a Weatherby MKV Weathermark Alaskan in 375 H&H for sale for $600. (see classifieds). It weighs about 8 1/2 lbs with scope, it has a factory McMillian Classicmark II fiberglass stock, dull nickle action and barrel, leupold QR bases and rings.

Send me a FFL, with a check for the shipping, I will mount a scope (steel tubed Weaver 2.5x)on it for you.

Shoot it for 30 days. Then either send me the rifle back or a check for the works.

Your out postage and ammo at worst. But you will find out whether a 375 is right for you.

Let me know. Just click on my e-mail adress.

Bob

I like the .308. It will take care of anything you are talking about with the right load. It's best point is the availability of cheap practice ammo. Remington's UMC ammo, for instance, is as accurate as any but the best match ammo. And military surplus ammo can be had far cheaper than factory ammo.
If money is a factor, skip the variable and go with a straight 4X scope like a Leupold.
I've shot both the .375, and the .338 in several forms. I've got a very accurate slug gun. I've got some very accurate custom rifles. I afford what I want. Take all my big game rifles away and leave me a choice of one, and it will be my M70 Featherweight in .308. It wears a 4X Leo. E

I don't think a big magnum rifle is the ideal starter rifle. Too big and heavy, kicks too much and the ammo is expensive, even for reloaders. Better to get a 30-06 and practice, practice, practice.

jcsa,

Well my longest shot with the 338 has been ~350 yards at a running elk, shooting a 175 gr barnes X bullet (handload), knocked her off her feet and she slid to a stop stone dead. Bullet exited, as have all my 338's and 375's. Most of my shots are much closer, under 200 yards. I had practiced a lot with that rifle/load in the months before season and was confident I could hit her or I wouldn't have taken the shot. It's sighted with a 200 yard zero. I have shot several deer with the same load, but found them needlessly destructive on meat (X bullets). Maybe in the smaller calibers the X isn't as destructive? I now prefer Nosler partitions for my medium bores. For the 338 I prefer the 225's myself, although I have used the 210's as well. Both shoot good out of my rifle. In the 375 I normally shoot the 260's, however for big bears I would shoot the 300's.

I guess if I NEW ahead of time the shot might be long (over 300+), I would carry the 338 that day instead of the 375. I usually take both to elk camp and would carry either with confidence. The scope on my 338 is a 3.5-10 X 50 Nikon Monarch, so it is more of a longer range tool than the 3 X 9 Leupold currently on my 375.

I would reconsider the ammo/reloading situation. Go to your local gunstore and look at the cost and availibility of factory ammo for both. You will see a significant cost for the "premium" ammo for both, with the 375 H & H being even costlier, and that's if they even have some in stock (or any selection other than ONE loading). To be able to hit game reliably past 300 yards takes LOTS of practice, from field positions and not a bench, no matter how flat shooting the cartridge is. You will burn a lot of cash practicing enough to get that level of accuracy. It will take 100's of rounds of practice and that gets expensive. I also practice with the exact same load that I hunt with. That is the main reason I reload, that and frustration over not having the load I want readily availible for the game I am persuing. Reloading gives you added versatility.

I know these guys are giving you a bad time about your cartridge choice, but their advise is not necessarily bad. The bigger guns are "cool", and are very decisive on game, but a 270 or 30-06 would do everything you list, too. Just wanted to mention that, even though I also prefer the larger "medium" bores myself.

Shadow,

Hey buddy, can I "rent" your 375, too? I don't need the scope, but send the bases and rings.

I could sure put some rounds through it in 30 days! Is there a cleaning deposit?

Sorry, couldn't resist being a wiseguy. Great of you to make the offer to him, though.

You have got a lot of good info. to mull over so let me add my 2 cents worth.

I have shot the 338 here in AK extensively for 20 years with nothing but stellar results. I've taken deer, sheep, caribou and moose plus a bunch of African game up through eland with it.

I have used the 210 NP for smaller big game up to moose. This bullet shoots almost as flat as the 300 Win. with 200's but creates a larger wound channel. The 250 NP is great for the big stuff and has almost the thump of the 375 but with a flatter trajectory.

I think the 338 would be your better choice for you. I also am a lover of the grand old 375 H&H but I think it is better left for the biggest North American animals and Africa rather than an all around caliber for deer etc.

jcsabolt-2

After all the good posts I still have to add my 2c - and that is that Shadow said it all in his first post.

I have shot the 375 H&H (using 300 gr) It is more of a shove than a sharp kick and I have probably fired a 375 H&H (I have owned 3 of them)near 3000 rounds or so. Almost all shooting was off hand with bench used for sighting in only. Like you I didn't reload and used it for hunting only. I have no experience with the 338 Win. whatsoever but I've been reading these forums for months now and there is no doubt that the 338 Win. must be one fine cartridge judging from all the comment I've read.

It's the recoil factor that urges me to recommend calibers in the same range as Shadow's post. Although comfortable to shoot, I found that my shooting with the 375 H&H deteriorated after about 20 rounds per practice session. Think about that. (BTW, I am not particularly sensitive to recoil) Add in the cost factor and I have to go with Shadow's recommendations.

Having said all this I now have to confess that I held back something. I can't speak for the 338 Win.,but shooting a 375 H&H is just plain fun! (You notice I mentioned I have owned 3 375 H&H's - I only made one trip to Africa. )

I must sound like a shill for Shadow but he's making a great offer. You may not like the caliber - and , on the other hand, be warned. The big calibers can be habit forming!

jcsabolt-2

I haven't read through all the sage advice of the other posters and i see a lot of .375H7H recommendations. So here's my suggestion. If You are a reloader I would get a .300 Win Mag and you can effectively load that cartridge to .308, 30-06, and .300 levels depending on what you want/need. Making it 3 rifles in one and with the available bullet selections you can cover a tremendous array of game. the next rifle I would give serious thought to would be the 7MM Rem Mag. it is very versatile, availbe and will do most if not all of North America just fine. Lastly and maybe most interestingly I would look seriously at the .338 Win mag. not as ammo friendly as the others but certainly enough gun for NA. this would be my choice for you if you don't reload, but the 7MM amkes a compeling arguement. Best wishes.

Bigbore,

Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll start start my own "rent to own a 375" program.

I'll make it easy for them to buy too. I think I'll call it the 50-50-50 program.

You know $50. down, $50. a month, for 50 years.

Shoot, if I thought of this sooner, I coulda retired sooner.

Bob

Shadow

Sign me up as a customer. Have to admit though I'm not sure I can handle your terms. $50 down and $50 a month is OK. It's the 50 years I'm not sure about.

I feel you are probably better served with a 30/06 at this point in time if you do not have a centerfire yet. Then down the track you could team it up with a .375 H&H or .338. It's up to you though.

Big game hunting...two rifles, 308 Winchester & 338 Winchester Magnum. One rifle, 338 Winchester Magnum. 338 Win Mag produces more recoil, lots more recoil.

I just went through all this with a close friend who bought his first- one & only rifle. He wanted a Weatherby until he priced the ammo. Then he wanted a Weatherby in 30.06 because they were pretty- he wanted a pretty walnut stock. We told him if he was going to buy the Weatherby then buy it in a Weatherby cartridge- that ended the Weatherby discussion. BTW he won't be reloading. We decided on the 30.06 because of the versatility- ammo in a 7-Eleven in an emergency. We looked at Rem700BDLs, Browning A-Bolts. In the end he found a great deal on a SteyrMannlicher ProHunter in 30.06 for $650. He put a Zeiss 3-9x36 scope on it- $500. He had Briley, here in Houston, put a muzzle brake on it- $250, and had the pad changed out to a Pachmyer Decelerator- $75. He's in the rifle for $1475. We took it to the range and it shoots .75 groups with Remingtom 150grn CoreLokts- $11 box. We're done.
If he goes Elk or Bear or Hog huntin he can always pick up a box of 180s- check his zero and he's done.
PS> He just married into a serious south Texas family with a big ranch in south Texas Ahhh
damn the luck....

jcsabolt-2

I recently went through the .338/.375 decision making process. I went with the .338. There are more rifles and ammunition available, both at a lower price. I don't reload, so availability of ammo was important to me. They will both kill a large animal with a well placed shot, and as I've read so many times, just how much deader than dead is dead?

Unlike you, I do own a .223 for practice and a .270 for smaller game. I also have shot them enough to feel proficient out to 350 yards. All three rifles are the same make and model with the same scope and rings. There is very little difference to me amongst the three of them until the rifle goes off. Just a thought as you go about acquiring rifles in the future. The .223 is a pleasure to shoot and very affordable.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Theres .7" diff in a 338-250 and a 375-300 at 200 yards.
Get the 375, load it down with 235s for small stuff, and have a blast. Load it up with 300's for nasties. AND you can take it to africa, with either load, and shoot all the game legally.

375, all the way, between 338 and 375. Besides, you'll have something that just about NO ONE around you will ever have, can do EVERY thing a 338 can, and you can find factory ammo from alaska to zimbawe, in a legal DGR caliber.

As for you being recoil sensitive/run before you can walk... that's bull corn... get the 375 and load it light... and take at least SOME heavy duty bad boy brusiers with you to the range. Shoot offhand, and you'll be outshooting all your friends in 2 months.

It's nostalgia, africa, alaska, and, loaded with high speed lite bullets, a super duper american deer/sheep/pig gun
jeffe

I own and shoot both calibers. Either one is capable of handleing most hunting situations. However, both have considerable recoil. The recoil is not a problem once you get used to it but to do that you will probably have to shoot a lot. With either one if you don't reload you had better be rich. Both have just enough recoil to make them very difficult for the inexperienced or casual shooter to master. If you are not careful they will cause you to develop a flinch that will then make it difficult to shoot anything well. My advice is to start with a smaler caliber and work up if you don't reload. If you reload you can load either caliber down considerably and then work up.

I think I missed something:

You live in Ohio, can only afford one rifle, but you want to hunt Elk, Bear, Moose, and later African game? I was born in Oxford, and as I recall the Elk, Moose population was slim even then.

Seriously, when you can afford THOUSANDS OF $$$ for these out of state hunts, the additional expense of a cannon to do it with is going to be small change.

Please, please PLEASE!!! go with the suggestions of most of the others and get something moderate like a 30-06, or a .308 or 7-08. You'll have more fun, shoot better and slay deer and black bear with ease. BTW, those .30 cal. bullets don't exactly bounce off Elk.

Just remember, a new rifle will cost you 6-$800 while your first Elk hunt will probably be $5000, and your first Safari will probably double or triple that number.

Sorry to not answer the question that you asked, but as so many of the others are suggesting, IMHO you are pretty far off base here.

Respectfully...JimF

I agree with Jim F's comments above. I don't think a rifle can even be used for deer hunting in Ohio and you ordered a varmint rifle and now want a .338 or .375!

For hunting in the USA the .270 Winchester is about the minimum cartridge that will be entirely satisfactory. Other choices that the vast majority of hunters buy are the 30/06 and the .308 Win.

Very few people hunt elk and the above cartridges will work just fine anyway. They will work as varmint cartridges also as you want a varmint rifle also.

(SORRY, DUPLICATE!! NO IDEA HOW I DID THIS.... BALANCE DELETED)

[ 08-30-2002, 01:38: Message edited by: JimF ]

That "try it for 30 days" offer is a very good idea and a very gracious offer. You really can't loose. I think the 375 sounds waaaay kewl. Maybe you'll fall in love.....maybe you'll decide that a 30/06 can/will/has taken all the game you listed(probably more often than the other 2 combined). That would be a fun 30 days!

Thank you for all of the replys. I'm going to give the 375 H&H a try for 30 days and see how I like it. I'll be sure to warm up with my brothers '06 and my slug gun first.

I'll give you all a little report when I am finished. Thanks again!

Stick in my two cents
The guys are right start small. The 30-06, or 308 will do all you need for now. You are really only dreaming of Africa. If you get to the point you can afford to go, you will have saved enough money to get a new gun. (The savings in factory amo alone could buy a new gun if you do any serious shooting, and you should).
Added benefit you will then own two!

[ 08-30-2002, 16:32: Message edited by: John Y Cannuck ]