kudu,
I never read Outdoor Life, but when I read your post, I ran out and bought a copy. I thought "finally!!!, some real facts about wolf affects on game." I thought "Zumbo will tell it true and right." I've been looking for proof of wolves reducing elk herds for a couple of years now, and cannot find such proof. For instance, I thought Idaho (for instance) sells as many elk tags as they ever have.
Well, aside from the sensational introdutory photo, Zumbo DID tell it pretty much straight. Trouble is, I sure didn't read what you read! I guess we sometimes read (and hear) what we want to read (and hear). Its a human trait.
The only thing I can find in the entire article about effects on game is that he feels that he has seen fewer elk calves and fewer mooose than in the past. I sure didn't read that wolves have "devastated" anything. I read that he thought he saw fewer calves and moose, but the professionals he talked to reminded him of the drought and other possibilities. He sure showed me no proof that it is a wolf-caused effect. There were three speculative sentences there.
I agree with most of what he said and disagree with most of the posters here , generally, about wolves. But if someone can steer me towards data that will change my mind, great, I'm not an unmovable object. I am willing to learn. Just have not seen the proof yet.

Just a reminder to some who use the word "decimate." It means to reduce by 10%.

Wow,quite a post
Maybe Africa should get rid of all preditory game,or us in the Yukon should kill all our wolves and grizzlies.I also hate it when moose and caribou numbers fall because the wolf population increases,but it's nature,what are they supposed to eat.Maybe we have a slightly different out look up in canada,when I'm out moose hunting in late fall sitting around a campfire and you here the wolves howl you know your truly in nature,and there's a bigger piture than just us.I respect everyone's opinion I just hope it doesn't get to out of hand,I for one wouldn't want to live in the north if there wasn't grizzlies and wolves.

Ya griz you do have a slightly different out look. First off,you still have some true wilderness(untouched land) left in canada,america doesn't. I still haven't been able to see how hearing some phucking wolf howling in National forest,somehow signifies wild. Pristine wilderness is a joke,as soon as a human steps into the field,there isn't anything pristine left. If hearing a wolf howl in the wild makes you want to jerk off,then get a walkman and a recording of some wolf and listen to that sh!t



A good read about the current wolf problem,is this months issue of wyoming wildlife and the free newspaper that they publish. Some pretty interesting studies and conclusions with hard evidence to back it up. One interesting fact,is the conflict between grizzlies and wolves,which gets little press. Bears routinely run wolves off of kills and often go straight from hibernation to wolf kills. The result is,bears actually force wolves to kill more game just so they can actually get a small amount to eat. Bears may be the only species that will increase while the wolf is present.

When I lived in Montana I saw areas around Glacier National Park where the predators, wolves, mountain lion, coyotes and grizzles, had eaten everything. They were changing territories as there was nothing left for them to eat, thus the great migtation of wolves throught Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. On one occassion a Montana Fish,Wildlife and Parks biologist stated they had found mountain lions that had starved to death. At one time in the early 90's you could drive the North Fork road and watch deer feeding during the winter. Now you will not even see any tracks in the snow.

I like the idea of wolves but I do think the should not be considered endangered. There was a recent program on Discovery Channel where one of the "experts" stated that time has come that the wolf should be hunted for both control and so they will learn to fear man. He went on to say that many of the encounters man has been having with the wolf is because they do not fear man.

If you are a rancher in Wyoming and Montana and have your livelihood endangered by your calves being killed, it is a little hard to feel pleased about the reintroduction of wolves. Most will tell you they were killed off for a reason before and that reason hasn't changed.

In rural western America the voters wishes from populated areas often impact gravely the people who must live in the areas that the policies affect.

Steve

If all the animals are gone up around Glacier Park then how come the had the BEST hunting success they have had in over 50 YEARS? The wolves han't killed all the game off just yet, but I don't think we should wait for them to either.

A good friend of mine has been hunting lions since the first of Dec. He said that he sees wolf tracks every day he's out... And he covers a lot of ground, probably 4 drainages before it gets light out. He said he has seen very few elk tracks and sees at least one wolf track in each drainage. This is quite alarming, the wolves are dispersing from their packs in alarming numbers and soon these lone wolves will create new packs. When will it end... When we start poisining and shooting em... Shoot first and ask questions... well never, just walk the other way

Everywhere, coyotes are considered a nuisance. They are an unprotected species everywhere I know of. They eat sheep and family pets, and are prospering despite constant hunting pressure.

So if coyotes are such a nuisance, why does anyone figure wolves are a good idea?

"So if coyotes are such a nuisance, why does anyone figure wolves are a good idea? "

'Cause they eat coyotes????

Brent

Wolves eat few coyotes,what they do manage to do to coyotes. Is make coyotes form packs,in which case the coyotes become more destructive. There were several biologist reports back in the 1980's in yellowstone,confirming the occurance of coyotes traveling in packs and taking down elk. The theory then,was that maybe there were wolves already present(because coyotes often form packs when around wolves),or coyotes were simply adapting themselves to take on larger prey.

I think the SSS plan is the way to go. An electronic call and an AR perhaps?

Just to be clear- I don't live in a "wolf area" & don't know a great deal about this issue. The above post was a tongue-in-cheek reaction to all of the wolf talk- I'm really not advocating that anyone violate game laws. In short- do not take literally! I'm sure that both sides of this issue have a point. If it hasn't been done already I'd suggest that the ranchers, guides, etc. band together through their respective organizations and put political pressure on those who matter to help on this issue. My 2 pennies.

I've noticed that here in B.C., where there is a healthy population of wolves, coyote sightings are alot fewer(along with moose and elk). In areas with no wolves, coyotes are an infestation.

RMK

I remember the bioligists claiming the opposite. The lack of wolves have had the yotes pack up and hunt bigger prey.

[quote But damn-it don't try to tell me that there were no wolves in Yellowstone in the 80's! I seen 'em!

---

Well, if ya seen 'em, ya seen 'em. I guess I better qualify that with "besides THE POSSIBILITY of a few strays, there were no wolves in...." I wonder why the govment had to introduce them?

I also have to back off my statements about the Zumbo article a bit too. I went back and tried to read the article from a "I hate wolves" point of view. I had missed two things on the first read. He states that wolves "can ravage game populations" (this is from memory, so forgive if not exact quotation). When I first read it, I agreed that they CAN ravage.... Doesn't mean they usually or always do. On the second, I think Zumbo may believe that they DO RAVAGE....... Also, on the second read, I noticed that a caption under a photo said something like "The author doesn't understand why biologist dismiss the likelyhood of wolves devastating game pops...) On the first read, I dismissed the caption because, of course that was an interpretation by the editor, not a quote from Zumbo. Some may think those are Zumbo's words. I laughed out loud when I read his statement that wolves don't use smell to hunt. Come on!!! Well, I guess it could be partially true in wide open areas and big game. I don't know. They sure use their nose when hunting anything around here. Ever seen a wolf hunt mice?
Anyway, my experience with wolves is around Northern Minnesota. Deer, moose, snowshoe hare, rodents, etc. are the prey and the landscape is thickly forested. Elk and wide-open landscape could be a whole other world.
Just trying to learn.
Also, just to clear one thing up. I could give a rat's a$$ if wolves occur "out west." That's up to the folks who live there. I like 'em in my back yard. That's up to the folks who live here.

I just heard on the local radio that 14 sheep were killed by wolves on two ranches 12 miles south of Livingston and that ladies and gents is way out of the park about 50 miles or more.w/regards

I love the drought excuse. Here in Wyoming we are in the 5th or 6th year of a state wide drought. All the wolf lovers blame the reduction in elk numbers on this drought. It isn't the wolves eating the elk it is the drought. interesting stat, south central Wy has record numbers of elk as well as high cow to calf ratios, like 25 to 30 calves per 100 cows. And in Northwest Wy.(wolf areas) the ratio is under 10 calves per 100 cows. Now why wouldn't the same drought affect all of the elk instead of just the elk of North west wy???? Becuase that is the excuse they use. They know they screwed up and will never admit it.

Grizz, you have to understand the wolves of the west were intorduced with no control, an unlimited food supply, and no natural enemies. Your wolves can be shot and trapped, held in check to a certain degree. The wolves of the yellowstone ecosystem are uninhibited. Now try that in the Yukon or Alaska and see what happens.

There is good article in the Wyoming Wildlife newspaper this month. Some very good documented stats. One article tells of the documented fact that wolves never inhabited yellowstone in any numbers that were seen by man. Some early users of the park and early explorers mention no wolves at all. I have never advocated killing all of them that have been illegaly intorduced into Wy. just some control. If they come out of the park then they are fair game. In the park, all you warm and fuzzy types can see them all you want.

We had a naturally recurring wolf population prior to the release of the Canadian wolves. Documented on video in Wyoming by the Urbikits in the early 90's. The USF&W didn't want to hear this and made the public statement that "There are no wolves in Wy" That allowed them to proceed with the reintroduction plan. Until Jerry Kyser of Worland shot a wolf outside of the park. The USF&W couldn't charge him becuase they said NO WOLVES in Wy.

Thanks Kudu, I for the life of me couldn't remember Jerry Kyser's name.

Boreal I never mentioned anything about coyotes packing up and fighting wolves. I simply stated that coyotes have shown some tendency to run in packs within yellowstone.

The deal with Jerry Keyser,was pretty neat. Carhartt even had him as a poster child for their clothing. Nearly every store in my area selling their products,had a full size poster of Jerry and a wolf pelt.

The casper paper,ran an article the other day on a series of wolf shootings in wyoming. One of the gps collars,was found at the dam on buffalo bill resevoir. Fish and Game stated they don't believe the wolf tried to swim across and drowned. You just can't put anything over on these Motherfvckers can you.

The footage of wolves in yellowstone,before the official release in 96,made it onto local news channels. The footage was of a black canine that biologists confirmed as a wolf,eating on a buffalo.

One of the many crazy things about the reintroduction of wolves into wyoming. Is the fact that many local old timers were running anti wolf bumper stickers,back in the early 1980's. These same people claimed there were still some scattered wolves around. All of which was pretty well documented in the late 80's and the early 90's.

I'm not big on any conspiracy theories. But I know for a fact,that during the 1980's,there was a pretty large following of people who were keeping wolf crosses as pets. Alot of problems were coming up,over these pets having to much wolf in them. I believe the rules at the time,in wyoming and possibly elsewhere,was that these pets could only have 65% or less wolf blood in them. Most were crossed with malmute or shepherd. The problem is,breeders were being caught with dogs that were damn near pure wolf. These dogs were supposed to be destroyed when found. The problem is,how many were found.

A friend of mine,hunted alaska back in the early 1980's and ended up killing a Black colored wolf,that he had life sized. He then decided he wanted a wolf pet. Field and Stream and various publications,had all types of ads for wolf crosses,back then. This guy ended up buying a wolf pup,out of minnesota,that he ended up driving out and picking up. The guy he bought it from wouldn't ship them,because the blood lines were above legal levels. This pup eventually grew up to look just like the life size wolf mount my friend had. The "dog" lived for around 12 years. I spent alot of time around it. The SOB was sneaky,but a total pussy when it came to discipline,he'd stalk you and then do an all out run on you and veer to the side at the last second. Those that hadn't seen the dog do this before would sh!t their pants the first time he ran up on them. The dog never hurt anybody,but he looked just like the sh!t you see on discovery channel. My friend has a good sized piece of property with a small apple orchard,next to his yard. He put in a burial style electric fence,with the matching dog collar. He'd always had tons of whitetails in his orchard,until the dog showed up. I watched this dog kill one deer that came into the yard. There isn't any doubt that this "dog" could have survived on its own and ate well.

Well boreal, from what I've read by biologists that believe in this type of thing. Competition between the two canine species,makes coyotes adapt by grouping up. Wether for protection just like prey species group up. Or for the ability to take down large game. Elk were being documented as prey for coyotes and it wasn't sick elk either.



I also know a couple of guys that pretty much do nothing but predator hunting and have commented that never seen so many coyotes in packs over the past couple years. They'd see coyotes paired up in two's for mating,but now they're seeing groups of three's and fours and after killing them,they aren't parents and offspring.

Yes a greenie or warm and fuzzy guy but, Boreal I would NEVER call you a limp-wristed nancy-boy! LOL! God I love that one!