150 is a reasonable standard to set. Are you talking net 150? Look at the website of a lifelong friend of mine at www.borderbucks.com, NW Missouri and SW Iowa is pretty good. A lot of years, we'll kill 4-5 150's, biggest last year was 188 gross. My nephew is 18, has killed four from 153 to 188 gross, including a 170 net typical.

madgoat wrote:

quote:

trained chimp can kill a 150 inch buck behind a high fence.

Well, I guess you have a few generations to go before you evolve to that level...

In all seriousness, not all fenced operations are alike. There's a 42,000+ acre spread in southwest Texas that comes to mind. From typical brush country that's laden with rattlesnakes and cactus to deep canyons and rimrocks that spill off into the Rio Grande, this, quite simply, is rough country and not for the uninitiated.

You could hunt for days and NEVER see a fence. And without the help of some fancy GPS unit or cell phone (or the rescue efforts of the ranch owner), you probably wouldn't find your way back out, either.


But would it be you or the trained chimp purchasing the hunting license for an excursion here???

There's a story I've posted before so I won't get into the details of that. But for a brief recap: a hunter coming to Texas had written a few unflattering remarks about high fences, but unbeknowst to him, the folks running the ranch got wind of this.

So to have a little fun and to educate this non-resident smart-aleck, they decided to have a little fun and put him in one of the rougher areas of the ranch. Of course, this was just a high-fenced operation -- and ANYONE could find their way out, right???

Without going into details, let's just say the "hunter" was very, very glad to be "rescued" from the ranch that even a trained chimp could kill a deer on...

EDITED: Aw, heck, I might as well include the details here. I laugh every time I think of it:

A couple of years ago, a "writer" had booked an unguided hunt with a ranch in the southwest portion of the state. I was given this information in confidence, so I won't mention any names. But as this happened a couple of years ago, I don't think it can hurt to share the basic details of the debacle. So here it goes...

This is rough and rugged country -- unforgiving at times -- where cactus and catclaw carve up the unknowing, where rattlers can turn a dream hunt into a nightmare and where water is always in short supply. But his client asked no questions about the terrain, wanted no guiding assistance and was non-chalant about the entire affair.

The ranch manager had read his work before and knew that he had taken a couple of cheap shots at high-fenced operations in the past (this ranch was high-fenced and just over 20,000 acres). So he decided to have a little fun with him. Just after daybreak, he dropped off the writer near the center of the ranch near a bluff overlooking some promising hunting areas -- albeit in the most rugged and remote part of the ranch. He said "I'll pick you up at the gate 30 minutes after sunset. But if you get lost, just get to the fence and follow it back."

To make a long story short, the "writer" was not at the designated pickup point. Within minutes, the ranch headquarters phone rang, and a deseprate voice on the other end admitted he was hopelessly lost since around 3 p.m. and could not find his way to the gate OR EVEN TO THE FENCE!

I am not certain, but I do believe this "writer" visits AR on occasion, and if he wants to chime in, I'd like to know if his opinion of high-fenced ranches has changed. And for the record, he didn't bag anything while hunting alone; on the 4th day, with the added services of a guide, he did manage to tag a decent buck.

There is just something wrong with "ranchers" who put eartags in whitetails behind a high fence and claim you're "hunting" them.

Ear tags belong in livestock, plain and simple. You want to hunt livestock, I guess that is your deal. Why not just go pick up the cut and wrapped meat along with your shoulder mount.

MG

None of the high-fenced operations I've been to have ever had ear tags in their deer. Doing so would have been virtually impossible as they are as wild as any other deer on the continent.

Don't confuse high-fenced ranches with game farms that have cropped up in parts of the west and midwest. A 40000 acre ranch and a 100 acre farm are not one and the same -- no matter if they use the same fencing system.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
None of the high-fenced operations I've been to have ever had ear tags in their deer. Doing so would have been virtually impossible as they are as wild as any other deer on the continent.

Don't confuse high-fenced ranches with game farms that have cropped up in parts of the west and midwest. A 40000 acre ranch and a 100 acre farm are not one and the same -- no matter if they use the same fencing system.

The only ear-tagged deer I have seen were low-fenced, having been netted and tagged during studies on the Faith Ranch. The moved across the low fence to a Briscoe ranch where I saw them. Hundreds of thousands of acres to roam and could go from Mexico to Oklahoma if they wanted.

Buffalo County, Wisconsin, all time record with 62 B&C entries, tied with St. Louis County, Minnesota which is 10 times the size of Buffalo County, WI. Buffalo County, WI has more recent B&C and P&Y entries than any other county in the country.

http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_whitetail.asp?area=bgRecords

http://www.boone-crockett.org/images/bcwhitetail_1280.jpg

http://www.buffalocountyoutfitters.com/qdm/remingtonmag/images/qdmmap_big.jpg

http://www.buffalocountyoutfitters.com/qdm/qdm.html

Charles Helm,
I am hunting on a 1700 acre pasture out of 30,000 low fence acres on one of the Briscoe ranches around Concan Tx. Two seasons ago I saw a whitetail doe that had yellow ear tags about two inches in diameter. I didn't shoot her and told the others in the group not to shoot her either. Saw her once last year. I've been wondering what the tags were all about
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Charles Helm,
I am hunting on a 1700 acre pasture out of 30,000 low fence acres on one of the Briscoe ranches around Concan Tx. Two seasons ago I saw a whitetail doe that had yellow ear tags about two inches in diameter. I didn't shoot her and told the others in the group not to shoot her either. Saw her once last year. I've been wondering what the tags were all about
GWB

I can't say on that ranch. Stuart Stedman of the Faith (Dimmit/Webb Counties) used to do a lot of work with whitetail researchers where they darted or netted bucks and tagged them for study. To my knowledge, once tagged they were released. At the time the Faith was not high fenced or at least not fully. It may be fully high-fenced now and they may have pens or research deer, I simply do not know, but the tagged ones I saw were free roaming and had moved next door.

I thought about shooting an old buck with tags in each ear, but I wasn't sure the taxidermist would leave them in , and we moved to a different pasture on the last day of that hunt and I did not see him again.

There is a better way to summarize the high fence arguement. My comparisons to a laboratory in the above post is a very good analogy.

Lets look at this because I'm somewhat of a math geek.
w= time
X= harvest or cull
y= protein/ diet
z= area to roam

So a combination thereof looks like the following:

(w)(x)(y)(z)= genetic make-up

Time (w) is a constant. Its the same for everyone. The longer the time the more genetics can be improved upon.

Improving X and Y can be done by anyone high fence or not. This is the basics of Quality Deer Management which is something I think is good for hunting.

In a non-fenced in area, z cannot be controlled. Its the unknown. It also is effected by an outside variable which is human pressure. Lets face it, big wily bucks go nocternal or move away from their pressured areas when humans pressure them.

However, if you control Z, you control all the things that control genetics in deer. Its no longer controlled by mother nature, its controled by you. To boot, the restrictions you place on deer movement allow for deer to grow accustom over time (w) to human activity.

You have total control. You have now placed the wild in your own personal test tube with full control over the desired results.

Sorry, Sky, but I can't follow your logic. There are 3 variables than affect trophy quality: age, nutrition, and genetics.
And it is much easier to have an influence on age and nutrition, than genetics.

Time, protein/diet, and area to roam do not affect genetics. I ain't followin' you... help me out!!

SkyJacker wrote: [quote]You have total control. You have now placed the wild in your own personal test tube with full control over the desired results....To boot, the restrictions you place on deer movement allow for deer to grow accustom over time (w) to human activity."

Here's another with little or no understanding of what happens on a LARGE high-fenced ranch.

You have no "total control."

Hell, you have NO control when you're talking about 40,000, 60,000 or 100,000+ acres, as are many ranches here in Texas.

In an operation such as that, the fence is of little consequence when it comes to the "wildness" of the deer.

Most of the deer in a 40,000 acre enclosure will never even encounter the fence in their entire lifetime.

As to becoming accustomed to human activity, again, you have no clue when it comes to the larger ranches. The majority of the deer on a 40,000 acre ranch will NEVER encounter a human, either.

You know, a couple decades or more ago, the Texas Parks & Wildlife conducted a simple experiment by placing a number of deer on a TINY 40-acre enclosure (yep, that would be a canned hunt in my books).

Several unarmed hunters were allowed to roam the place and document what they saw over a period of several days.

Think about it. 40 acres. Multiple hunters. And several days to roam the enclosure. They HAD to see all the deer, right???

WRONG.

I no longer remember the exact figure, but something upwards of 90 percent of the deer were NEVER seen.

So how do you think this would play out over 40,000 acres of rough, rugged wildlife habitat?

I rest my case...

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Sorry, Sky, but I can't follow your logic. There are 3 variables than affect trophy quality: age, nutrition, and genetics.
And it is much easier to have an influence on age and nutrition, than genetics.

Time, protein/diet, and area to roam do not affect genetics. I ain't followin' you... help me out!!

Well, you and I are closer than you probably think. You are correct, but I was thinking in terms of human influences. Harvest or Cull as I describe it, would be our attempt to control the age (as you point out) of the deer we harvest. In trophy management, you cull out the older deer that haven't produced racks. And you let the younger deer develop. So the harvest and how we harvest has the direct effect on genetics over time.

Nutrition, we both agree on ie. protein/diet.

I probably made it too complicated. But here it goes again:
By implementing a trophy management philosophy your attempting to influence the best genetics by harvesting animals at their peak production and culling out those that don't produce. By planting food plots, feeders, etc. etc. you are trying to influence the deers nutrional diet to be the best quality it can be to grow a rack. Then when you throw a fence around an area of land, you control the animals in that area.
So over the constant variable of time, you can in effect grow the biggest deer and over time they grow more and more accustomed to human influences.

And Bobby, my example was really just that, an example. Forgive me if I have come across where I am trying to label all fence operations under the same heading. I'm not. Obviously in a high acre 30,000 plus ranch, you're definitely sacrificing a lot of your control over the deer. But fence that 30,000 acres in for over 100 years and manage it for trophy quality, and you start catching up with the ranch that is only 4000 acres under intense control for a shorter period of time.

My example is for a controlled environment, and obviously its pretty tough to have absolute control over 30,000 acres. But again, over a longer period of time, you start to catch up.

And I would like to see the actual facts of that Texas Game and Wildlife experiment. Because I really don't place a lot of validity in the experiment that you described. Other than if you pressure deer, they will avoid you. Did all those hunters sit still with scent lok clothing in tree stands instead of walking around? Given a high powered rifle, and told to shoot anything they see, how many deer in that 40 acres would be dead? Probably over 75%.

Here's just another thought to all of you who think high fenced hunting is "shooting fish in a barrel". Many of you say "it doesn't matter how big the barrel is, it's still a barrel, blah, blah, blah, etc.....". So, I guess every animal you've ever hunted was a "canned" hunt, right? The animals you have hunted were obviously "trapped" and couldn't escape, since they were restricted to their perspective continents. And to go even farther, even if they could swim across the oceans, they would still be "canned" because they don't have the ability to escape this "canned" hunting operation we like to call Earth. That deer you shot last season couldn't strap on a jet pack and zoom off to Mars, could he? So.......he was "canned" as well. Remember.....the size of the "barrel" doesn't matter, right?
GIVE ME A FRIGGIN' BREAK PEOPLE!! USE YOUR DAMN BRAINS!! PLEEEEEEEAAAAASE!!

Eland, that's a great example. Lets use the most absurd logic to rationalize high fences.

Again, I don't have a problem with high fences for a 30,0000 acre + enclosure. I may decide to hunt one one day. But I haven't yet hunted one but that's my personal choice and the satisfactory I take from a hunting experience. Right now, it just doesn't float my boat.

10,000 acre enclosures are vast but I feel even less likely to hunt one of those. 2000 acre and lower.... I think that is ridiculous and I would laugh in the face of anyone who ever hunted one who thought they actually hunted.

SkyJacker,

Ok, hopefully you realize that I was exagerating just a tad, and that is not exactly my logic. However, it is very obvious that you have not been to many (if any) high fenced properties. 2,000 acres is still a very large piece of land. It also depends on what you are hunting and what kind of terrain/cover exists inside the property. Most Whitetail Deer spend their entire lives on quite a bit less than 2,000 acres. Another reason YOU ARE WRONG is that when animals, such as Whitetail, are restricted to a certain area, they learn the area far better than any human could. You can't paint all high fenced ranches with the same ignorant brush, because it's just that, ignorant.

I have hunted on several high fenced ranches here in Texas. I will list their sizes along with the animals I hunted:

1,800 acres - Axis, Blackbuck, Hogs
600 acres - American Bison (admittedly, not a difficult hunt, but it was strictly for meat, not the experience)
800 acres (bowhunting only) - Whitetail, Hogs, various exotics (I was not successful)
1,000 acres - Eland (successful after 6 full days of hunting)
6,000 acres - Hogs (not successful)

So......you are welcome to "laugh in my face" as you put it, since I am not a real hunter according to your misinformed opinion.

I have visited around a dozen other high fenced properties that I didn't hunt on. One of these was only 200 acres. They had a herd of approx. 30-40 Axis on this ranch and we drove all over the place for several hours and NEVER saw a single Axis. There are 3 reasons for this:

1. The property was approx. 85-90% wooded.
2. The animals were NOT conditioned to humans.
3. Axis are naturally "flighty" animals that are virturally impossible to domesticate.

So.......it's a variety of factors that dictate the difficulty of a hunt on a high fenced property.

Another ranch I just visited a few weeks ago in South Texas was 500 acres high fenced. There are only Whitetail on this ranch and there are approximately 100 deer on the place. These were some of the most elusive critters I've ever seen. The ranch has been high fenced for 10 years and the deer have learned the place WAY better than the owner. I have hunted many free-range places where it would be much easier to kill a deer than on this place. There are two bucks on the ranch they have been trying to kill for the past 2 years, but haven't been able to. They see them in velvet during the summer, but once the season starts, they disappear. One is 7.5 years old and the other is 8.5 years old. (*Just for you guys like me who love big Whitetail racks, they have sheds from the buck who is now 8.5 The sheds are from when he was 6.5 He was a typical 8 pointer with a 10 inch kicker on his right G-2 and scored around 175"!! He had 15" G-2's and 12" G-3's with bases over 7 inches and mass like you wouldn't believe!! INCREDIBLE deer!!)

Anyways........back to the topic. It's obvious that some of you here on AR will never give this topic a chance, because you are simply too narrow-minded. It is not a black and white subject. There's a LOT of gray.

I guess if you're too stupid to see what damage wildlife farms, game farms, fenced preserves or what ever you want to call a bunch of farm animals being hunted called, can do to free ranging wildlife you're too ignorant to be a hunter in my book. Just type in the words "game farms" and "disease" at the same time on Google and prepare to get a real education on the subject.

Go back to shooting farm animals....I could give two shits how big an enclosure. It makes no difference to me...if you're trading wildlife stock between other game ranches or growing it like livestock...then call a spade a spade....nothing more than farm animals with antlers.

And anyone who has to talk about a deer's antlers in terms of G1, G2's and the like needs to get a fucking life.

MG

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:
: Just type in the words "game farms" and "disease" at the same time on Google and prepare to get a real education on the subject.

And anyone who has to talk about a deer's antlers in terms of G1, G2's and the like needs to get a fucking life.

MG

OK, Madgoat, I did what you suggested. Googled game farms and disease.

Ist response:

"Game Farms are large, privately owned, fenced in tracts of land where "wildlife"-usually elk or deer-are raised, fed, and bred. There can be many reasons to do this, such as providing images for photography or zoos, but by far, the main reason is to allow clients to shoot the animals under the guise that they are "hunting."
The ecological risks of game farms are huge. The most apparent problem is that game farms unnaturally concentrate animals, allowing for disease to spread among the herd. The risk is then that these animals wiill escape and spread disease to wild animals. Currently brucellosis is endemic among elk concentrated on feedgrounds in Wyoming; Chronic Wasting Disease, now common among deer and elk in Colorado, is moving towards the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. These diseases threaten game farm animals and wild populations."

The "problem" described seems to be that game farms "unnecessariy concentrate animals allowing disease to spread".

I live in south Texas and am familiar with a lot of high fence operations. But I am not familiar with the term "game farm". I asked earlier in the thread for the definition. Kensco replied that asking for definitions just derails the discussion and show a weakness in one's arguemnt. But it seems to me that until we define what we are talking about we can argue til the cows come home, and will ony talk past each other. The high fence operations I am familiar with DO NOT CONCENTRATE ANIMALS. In fact the primary purpose of the fence is to keep the population density DOWN.
Keeping the population down not only helps the health of the deer, it improves the condition of the pasture for all wildlife.

Back to Google results: The next several results all related to mad cow diseases potentially spreading to deer/elk. Interestingly, they were all in Wisconsin, Indiana, etc. Texas, supposed the most evil state, has yet to have its first case.

I completely agree with you, and others, that some shooting (not hunting) operations (guaranteed kill of giant "trophys" at high prices are disgusting). But to lump all ranches which have a high fence together and call them "game farms", is just ludicrous.

One more time:

1)There are lots of reasons for a high fence.

2)A high fence does not consistute a "GAME FARM".(where wildlife is concentrated) High fences are often used to keep game OUT!

3)The number of acres, the type of terrain, amount of cover, population density of game, exposure to humans, and a number of other variables impact the difficulty of a hunt. To say that a trained chimp can kill a deer inside a high fence, NO MATTER THE SIZE OF THE ENCLOSURE OR THE TERRAIN/COVER just has no validity.

4)FWIW I speak in terms of G1'S and G2'S. And I have a fine life, thank you (and amazingly have even learned to express myself in public without using profanity).

Again, I admire your convictions, but sure wish you would open your mind, just a little.

quote:

4)FWIW I speak in terms of G1'S and G2'S. And I have a fine life, thank you (and amazingly have even learned to express myself in public without using profanity).

Of course you do. Why? Because hunting to you is just a big dick contest...getting antlers to display to all your hunting buddies is all it is about. Who cares about the actual animal? Who cares how I get these big antlers, just as long as I do. In comes the game farm to provide you with what you want....pay to play.

Then what are high fence operations? Do they farm wildlife? Yes. Do they sell their wildlife to the highest bidder? Yes. Do they trade critters back and forth between farms? Yes. Do they try to improve the genetics by introducing genes from other stock behind fences? Sure do. Are there usually a bunch of non native critters running around? Heck ya. It's called livestock...I'll stick with my term "game farm".

It all makes perfect sense to me. I'm just glad that we've got enough sense here in WY to outlaw game farms within our state. We prefer to keep our wildlife free. You can ask any wildlife biologist worth his salt, and they'll tell you game farms are one of the worst things to ever happen to wildlife in this country.

MG

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:


4)FWIW I speak in terms of G1'S and G2'S. And I have a fine life, thank you (and amazingly have even learned to express myself in public without using profanity).

Of course you do. Why? Because hunting to you is just a big dick contest...getting antlers to display to all your hunting buddies is all it is about.

INTERESTING THAT YOU HAVE REACHED A CONCLUSION ABOUT ME PERSONALLY WITHOUT EVER MEETING ME...DON'T SEE ANY LOGIC BUT I SEE A PATTERN:

Then what are high fence operations? Do they farm wildlife? Yes.
NO THEY DON'T

Do they sell their wildlife to the highest bidder?
NO THEY DON'T

Do they trade critters back and forth between farms? Yes.
NO THEY DON'T

Do they try to improve the genetics by introducing genes from other stock behind fences? Sure do.
NO THEY DON'T

Are there usually a bunch of non native critters running around? Heck ya.
NO THERE AREN'T

It all makes perfect sense to me.
BASED ON WRONG ASSUMPTIONS

I'm just glad that we've got enough sense here in WY to outlaw game farms within our state. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN OUTSIDE WY??

You can ask any wildlife biologist worth his salt, and they'll tell you game farms are one of the worst things to ever happen to wildlife in this country.
I WORK WITH THEM ALL THEM TIME...DEPENDS ON HOW ONE DEFINES GAME FARM. IF THEY ARE DOING THE THINGS YOU DESCRIBE ABOVE, I, AND THEY WILL AGREE WITH YOU, BUT OFTEN, THEY AREN'T.

Just for you Olarmy, a little education on game farms, high fences and the like.

Why don't we need high fences? A few examples for all the sceptics as to why high fences spell disaster...

Alberta's Fun with game farms

More Alberta

Good Read on High Fence Livestock, er I mean Wildlife

NEW YORK
New York – The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) confirmed the states first cases of CWD in two wild deer in April. The first positive result was found in a yearling white-tailed deer that was collected as part of an intensive testing program in an area near two game farms due to the confirmation of CWD on each farm only weeks before. Since that time, three more deer were confirmed CWD positive on one of the farms. Both game farms have since been depopulated and samples were taken for testing. The second wild deer, a 3-year-old white-tailed doe, was confirmed on May 4, located within a mile of the location where the initial, first result was detected.
Six game farms associated with the two infected facilities that may have sold to or received animals from the infected game farms are under quarantine and surveillance. DEC moved quickly to enact emergency regulations that curtailed the movement and handling of deer and animals parts within a containment area in Oneida County. A prohibition against the collection, sale, possession or transport of deer or elk urine taken from any animals in the area has also been enacted. Officials have also taken samples from deer in adjacent Hamilton County with results pending.
The first discovery of a game farm CWD infected animal in New York came after the animal had been butchered and consumed at a Sportsmen’s Feast sponsored by a local fire department. The fire department had received the animal as a donation for the feast from one of the two game farms. Tissue samples were collected from the animal and submitted for testing but the results were not received before the animal was served up at the barbecue. Public officials are now trying to find and contact all feast attendees who may have consumed the venison.

TENNESSEE
A 1991 ban on private ownership of white-tailed deer in Tennessee was upheld on May 3, 2005 for the third time in the state Court of Appeals in Nashville. The state allows animals to be held only by zoos, temporary exhibitors and rehabilitation facilities, not private game farms. The court ruled that the law gives the state the authority to protect native, wild animals from such threats as chronic wasting disease (CWD) which has frequently been confirmed on private game farms or where privately owned game are held captive in concentration. The challengers said the law unfairly restricts interstate commerce, the buying and selling of game or game body parts.

MONTANA
Montana biologists warned us
about game farms 10 years ago

A decade ago, Montana wildlife officials became alarmed at was then the up-and-coming trend of raising elk within fences.

They had little regulatory authority to restrict game farms, except to attach fairly minimal requirements to the required state license. And they had more dire predictions than hard science to back their foreboding.

Their fears have come true in Colorado, not Montana, but that's small comfort, given the distribution of potentially infected elk among game farmers and the apparent spread of the disease in the wild.

Back then, Montana biologists were more extensive than the same warnings now going around belatedly in Colorado. They said confining ungulate herds would almost certainly incubate and spread disease, and they also worried that escaped exotics could dilute the gene pool of wild species.

Their fears were exacerbated by the often-petulant attitudes of some of the key figures in the blossoming game farm industry, including a Darby-area operator who quickly chalked up a series of infractions.

As did David Stalling, as he writes above, I first saw captive elk on that Darby game farm, as part of dozens of stories I wrote for the region's newspaper. Montana officials cited Colorado as the example of where they didn't want Montana to go. I interviewed and quoted Valerius Geist at length.

Then, the disease of concern was tuberculosis, and Montana biologist warned that Alberta had recently exterminated thousands of elk because of an outbreak on game farms there.

The health threat to humans was publicly downplayed, both there and here, although more than one state biologist cocked an eyebrow in skepticism.

The more immediate concern was the release of introduced species, particularly red deer, the European elk, into the wild, where they could breed with Montana's wild herd in an undetermined and indeterminate genetic experiment.

And not long after the controversy began, an Oregon lab confirmed red deer genes in a Montana elk taken by a hunter, though the source and the upshot was never ascertained.

As the state Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks stepped up pressure on game farms to build double fences and try to cut down the number of inevitable escapes, game farm owners responded by finding more sympathetic supervisors.

They convinced state officials to shift oversight and licensing of game farms to the Department of Agriculture, where captive elk were deemed alternative livestock and considered another source of ranch revenue, instead of the Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks, where they were considered a threat to the species and the hunting industry.

More Montana

TEXAS

Monitoring Scientific Deer Breeders
Since his transfer to the rural county, located approximately 50 miles south of Fort Worth, Game Warden Mike Sibila has dealt heavily with the Texas Scientific Deer Breeder Program, which issues permits for the commercial breeding and selling of white-tailed and mule deer. Across the state, approximately 150 breeders hold state permits, some of which are located in Bosque County. The breeders may sell their deer to non-permitted buyers, who are allowed to relocate the animals onto their land.

“Per capita, we have more high fences than anywhere else in the state, so we have a lot of scientific breeders here,†Sibila says. “But the big problem is monitoring. We need to be able to track these deer so we can prevent the spread of chronic wasting disease.â€

Another problem: Some breeders fraudulently sell, buy, drug and transport wild deer within the auspices of the state program. Covert investigations by Sibila and other law officials have led to several arrests in the high-dollar industry. Convicted violators have paid fines totaling more than $106,000.

ELSEWHERE...
CWD also has been found in farmed elk or deer herds in Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Montana, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Canadian provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Tuberculosis anyone?

Ontario game farm woes

If you cannot see that these types of operations pose a SERIOUS threat to native wildlife, the greed must be blinding.

MG

quote:

If you cannot see that these types of operations pose a SERIOUS threat to native wildlife, the greed must be blinding.

MG: I don't disagree with you that what you call "games farms" are bad. I love hunting and wildlife and natural beauty as much as you or anyone else.

My point, and my only point, which I don't seem to be able to get across, or you don't seem to want to hear, is that just because a ranch has a high fence, doesn't mean that all the things you (and I) don't like are happening behind the fence.

In most of Texas the most deleterious situation for wildlife (deer) is over-population...too many deer! Many ranchers have erected high fences, not to start "game farms" but to preserve and enhance the status of the wildlife, and thereby return all the flora and fauna to its more nature state. This is having a positive effect on native wildlife, not negative, as you assume.

And, yes, of course, some folks ARE doing the things that bother you. But not all!!

High fences are a TOOL. They can be used for good or for bad. Just like guns are a tool. To assume that all high fences are bad is the same rationale that the anti's use to argue that all guns are bad.

BTW: "the greed must be blinding" No greed involved...I don't make money this way.

olarmy,

It is obvious that Madgoat is incapable of opening his alleged "mind". So.......perhaps we should just ignore him. However, first I have a remark for him:

Madgoat,

Maybe you're the one who needs an education on the subject. First of all, since you live in a state that outlaws high fences, I doubt you actually have any experience with them. In the world I live in, it is generally agreed upon that one should have experience in a certain subject before being allowed to give advise and/or consult someone on said subject. Second, one of your "sources" keeps bitching about CWD......CWD has been around ever since game has been around. It is only now becoming more obvious to humans because of our successful conservation efforts, which have raised total deer and elk populations in most areas of the country, making CWD "more prevalent". Thirdly, everyone always talks about Texas being the worst place for "canned hunting", so therefore Texas should be covered in CWD, right? WRONG!! There still has not been a single case of CWD in the state. Fourthly, you said "You can ask any wildlife biologist worth his salt, and they'll tell you game farms are one of the worst things to ever happen to wildlife in this country." According to your definition, any high fenced operation would fall under "game farms". Apparently, you aren't aware that Texas Parks & Wildlife actually has an entire division of its management efforts dedicated to high fenced properties. Are you familiar with the MLDP (Managed Lands Deer Permit) system? Apparently not. FYI, there are 3 levels: MLD level 1, MLD level 2, and MLD level 3. Level 3 is usually used for high fenced properties. Maybe you should do a little more research. I'm just curious......how does your foot taste?

mad goat how do you feel about people building a fence around their private property if they dont care to sell deer or exotics.or even sell or lease the opertunity to hunt there.

to anyone how many of the acres that you hunt do you own.

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Level 3 is only used for high fenced properties.

Not true. My ranch is level 3 and it not high fenced.

I have hunted high fence ranches and there is not a dimes worth of difference. The difference is whether bait is used and if the property is managed or not. Deer will act the same whether high fenced or not.

The bottom line is that some people don't consider it a hunt unless you freeze your ass off and don't shower for a week while climbing the highest mountain around and it has to be public land. Then you have to pack your game on your back for at least ten miles. That's how a "real" man hunts.

Then there are the psuedo hunters like me. My idea of roughing it would be watching black and white tv. I like my hunting lodge with central air and heat, a hot shower, dish tv, and internet access. It's great to get up in the morning and saddle up the old hunting vehicle and sling some corn. Ride around till you find the deer you want and take the shot. Back right up to where they drop and load'em up. Take the carcass back to the lodge and latch on to the animal with an electric winch on the skinning rack. Clean the animal and shove them in the walk-in-cooler. Yep, I may not be a "real" hunter but I enjoy every minute of it. I hunt for my own reasons not to please other people.

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Originally posted by Reloader:
I've killed over a hundred of the little buggers and my fair share of nice bucks in the 110-140 range but, The areas I hunt just don't offer a reasonable chance at a 150+ buck.

I'm booked with Elk and Mulie hunts for the next 3 years but after that there are two hunts I plan on taking. One(My Dream Hunt) a nice Bull Moose and Second, a 150+ BC whitetail. To some that may not be very large of a buck, to me, it's a monster.

I want to go on a hunt where many bucks will be seen, spot and stalk or stand hunting, and 150+ bucks are the norm.

Canada?

South Texas?

Mid West?

I don't really care to hunt in a small high fence operation and don't care to pay over 5k.


I'm heading to Iowa this year for the 1st SG season and there will definitely be bucks of that caliber in the area but, we will not be hunting on any kind of managed land or large ranch.

Thanks,

Reloader

M16,

My mistake, I edited my post. I have a good friend that is the TPWD Wildlife Biologist for DeWitt and Goliad Counties. I was down visiting him a few weeks ago and he told me that they only use MLD level 3 on high fenced properties. I was just taking his word for it. Maybe he meant to say that all of his level 3 properties just happened to be high fenced. I'm not sure. Sorry for the confusion.

Eland slayer, maybe you need to spend less time playing video games and more reading up on CWD. Do you even know what it is an acronym for?

I just find it disgusting, that folks can take public property (wildlife), fence it in like cattle, and claim that they are actually doing "wildlife management".

Seems closer to the fast food industry to me...place your order, get your buck quick (since maybe Texans don't have what it takes to kill mature animals in the real world) and get out so you can go back to your meaningless lives.

MG

Back on topic...I still say Texas

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Originally posted by Madgoat:
Eland slayer, maybe you need to spend less time playing video games and more reading up on CWD. Do you even know what it is an acronym for?

I just find it disgusting, that folks can take public property (wildlife), fence it in like cattle, and claim that they are actually doing "wildlife management".

Seems closer to the fast food industry to me...place your order, get your buck quick (since maybe Texans don't have what it takes to kill mature animals in the real world) and get out so you can go back to your meaningless lives.

MG

Well.......considering I don't even own a video game system, it would be hard for me to spend less time playing video games. I don't play video games at all. Yes, I know what CWD stands for (Chronic Wasting Disease). Please enlighten me as to what I should be reading up on in the world of CWD.

You have made it UNBELIEVABLY clear that it is impossible for you to have a civilized and open minded discussion on this subject. So.......I think I'll just quit for now. You are more than welcome to your opinion, but it is just that, an OPINION, not fact.

I haven't seen any mention of Kansas or Oklahoma. My son, brother, and I hunt in NW Oklahoma, and the potential for "big" deer is a definite possibility on our place. My brother killed a 152" deer in 2005, and I killed a 178" deer in 2004.

Jeff,

GORGEOUS buck!! Great mass!! Congrats

Super deer Jeff! And in shirt sleeves! Thanks for sharing! I hope MG don't see that fence in the back ground!

Jeff-

That's a superb buck. I'm sure it has a place of prominence on your wall...

madgoat-

Tell me, have you ever hunted pronghorn on private property? Well, if so, you've hunted a fenced-in animal. I've watched 'lopes work fencelines for HOURS looking for a place to go under or through. They RARELY will jump a fence -- even when pressured. To that end, I guess that makes them just as fenced-in as any deer behind an 8-ft. fence.

High fenced ranches bite. How ironic is the argument when the "score" being referred to is from a "Fair Chase" organization. Can there really be a 150 B&C buck raised behind a high fence? Livestock is exactly what most deer, elk, and exotics are which live behind a high fence.

As for the question, I know little about it, but would go to Canada. I have been part on 4 bucks killed in Kansas which scored over 165.

Here Eland, what the...

quote:

CWD has been around ever since game has been around. It is only now becoming more obvious to humans because of our successful conservation efforts, which have raised total deer and elk populations in most areas of the country, making CWD "more prevalent".

Uh, WTF? Here is a little history of CWD for ya.

Sadly MC, it seems anymore "score" is more important than "fair chase".

MG

I don't see any resolution to this high fence arguement that seems to crop up again and again. From a theoritical standpoint I can see both sides of the issue. From a practical standpoint I see absolutely no difference in the rancher in Texas with a 150,000 acre high fence operation charging $4,500 to come on his land hunt a publically-owned deer, and the rancher in Montana or Wyoming with a 20,000 acre low-fence ranch, who charges hunters $4,500 to come on his land and hunt a publically-owned deer. Either way the hunter has spent $4,500 to hunt a publically-owned deer. Tom Purdom

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Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
SkyJacker,

Ok, hopefully you realize that I was exagerating just a tad, and that is not exactly my logic. However, it is very obvious that you have not been to many (if any) high fenced properties. 2,000 acres is still a very large piece of land. It also depends on what you are hunting and what kind of terrain/cover exists inside the property. Most Whitetail Deer spend their entire lives on quite a bit less than 2,000 acres. Another reason YOU ARE WRONG is that when animals, such as Whitetail, are restricted to a certain area, they learn the area far better than any human could. You can't paint all high fenced ranches with the same ignorant brush, because it's just that, ignorant.

No its not ignorant. That's just how I grew up. I grew up hunting along coastal Georgia in vast swamps and pine plantations that spanned 1000's of acres with no fences. Have you ever hunted in the Georgia Swamps? There is so much cover the chance of you being able to shoot a big buck is small because you have to set up RIGHT ON TOP of him. And that as we all know is very tough.

After having hunted some of the toughest conditions my entire life for the smallest of rewards, I started taking trips out West so I could have a chance at the bigger deer. I've never been able to sight pattern deer as using binoculars to scout deer movement is unheard of in heavy wooded swamps.

To boot the largest scoring deer in the County I hunt scored 125 B&C. The deer here weigh on average for a buck around 130-140 lbs. That's just the way it is. I've gone out to Kansas/Oklahoma the last 3 years, and every year I have seen more deer in one hunt than I see in an entire season in Georgia.

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I have hunted on several high fenced ranches here in Texas. I will list their sizes along with the animals I hunted:

1,800 acres - Axis, Blackbuck, Hogs
600 acres - American Bison (admittedly, not a difficult hunt, but it was strictly for meat, not the experience)
800 acres (bowhunting only) - Whitetail, Hogs, various exotics (I was not successful)
1,000 acres - Eland (successful after 6 full days of hunting)
6,000 acres - Hogs (not successful)

So......you are welcome to "laugh in my face" as you put it, since I am not a real hunter according to your misinformed opinion.

I won't laught in your face. But I don't think much of what you did even if you did have no success on some of those farms. You have yet to tell me how my opinion is misinformed other than to rationalize high fence areas are "tougher than you think". Tough by whose measuring stick? I think game ranches make people lazy and are a blight on what hunting is about.

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I have visited around a dozen other high fenced properties that I didn't hunt on. One of these was only 200 acres. They had a herd of approx. 30-40 Axis on this ranch and we drove all over the place for several hours and NEVER saw a single Axis. There are 3 reasons for this:

1. The property was approx. 85-90% wooded.
2. The animals were NOT conditioned to humans.
3. Axis are naturally "flighty" animals that are virturally impossible to domesticate.

So.......it's a variety of factors that dictate the difficulty of a hunt on a high fenced property.

Well, sit in a stand for 6 hours and see how many you can see.

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Another ranch I just visited a few weeks ago in South Texas was 500 acres high fenced. There are only Whitetail on this ranch and there are approximately 100 deer on the place. These were some of the most elusive critters I've ever seen. The ranch has been high fenced for 10 years and the deer have learned the place WAY better than the owner. I have hunted many free-range places where it would be much easier to kill a deer than on this place. There are two bucks on the ranch they have been trying to kill for the past 2 years, but haven't been able to. They see them in velvet during the summer, but once the season starts, they disappear. One is 7.5 years old and the other is 8.5 years old. (*Just for you guys like me who love big Whitetail racks, they have sheds from the buck who is now 8.5 The sheds are from when he was 6.5 He was a typical 8 pointer with a 10 inch kicker on his right G-2 and scored around 175"!! He had 15" G-2's and 12" G-3's with bases over 7 inches and mass like you wouldn't believe!! INCREDIBLE deer!!)

You can do a lot when you have that much influence over genetics.

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Anyways........back to the topic. It's obvious that some of you here on AR will never give this topic a chance, because you are simply too narrow-minded. It is not a black and white subject. There's a LOT of gray.

No, I probably won't ever give it a chance. I don't ever want to dilute the integrity and the importance of what hunting is all about. At least for me.

Eland, I am sure you are a very decent and reputable person and we would probably shoot the sh*t for hours on end over a cold bud, a campfire, and some good music. I don't like questioning other hunters talents, and I want you to know that I am not questioning your talent. What I am questioning is your choice in hunting high fences. And that is all.

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Originally posted by CRUSHER:
mad goat how do you feel about people building a fence around their private property if they dont care to sell deer or exotics.or even sell or lease the opertunity to hunt there.

I think that's great. Most people don't choose to build a 12' high fence around their property. My neighbor built a fence in his yard. It was 3.5' high. Last I checked, a deer could jump over it.