What i am asking for hear is a good handload for large blackbears at close range that DOESN'T exceed the saami of 28000

Hey guys ,in looking at the speer #13 reloading manual they have loads on page 415 for there 400grain Flat-SP bullet. Is this bullet construction at those velocitys a good bear load. I have spoken with and have received e-mail from speer stating that all the .45/70 Govt lever action data is held to a max of 28000 psi.

Speers 400gr at around 1400fps inside 50 yards will kill any black bear pretty quickly and leave 2 holes as well.

Cheers
Allan

For deer I have been using WinchesterPartition ,300 @ 1850 and those factory loads are only about 18,000 psi.That would work on bear.Or a handload could boost that Nosler velocity.The PMC 350 @ 2100 would work but that's about 37,000 psi.You could load that bullet ,the 350 Hornady to 28,000.The Speer 400 would also be fine.

I've never shot a bear of any type but I did stay in a Holiday Inn one night.

A co-worker if mine and his cousin shot two bear with my handloads in his Guide Gun last year. The load was a mild one using using AA2015 and a Hornady 350gr flat point at about 1,700 fps.

Both bear were treed and fairly close, the bullets penetrated through the chest and up into the neck (2 1/2' or so?). One bear took three of them and the other only one.

You may be able to find more data on the Speer bullet over at the Marlin site if it's still up. Those fellows seemed to worship both the Hornady 350gr and the Remington 405gr bullets.

I used to shoot the 400 grain speer FN at 1750 fps ahead of a charge of IMR4895 and it was a very impressive load for lighter game. If you are talking about one of the 700 pound Pennsylvania black bears, I am afraid I have no 45-70 experience to offer.

The 300 Nosler Partition is an excellent bullet.I know of three Bison takin with it in the last year with several hogs and Black Bears.Hodgdons #27 list the 300 Sierra with 55 grains of H-4198 at 27,600 CUP and 2221 fps out of a 24 inch test barrel-150 fps for the Guide gun would give you 2071 fps with the Sierra but with the Nosler maybe 2050 fps out of a Guide Gun or ad 75 fps for the 22 inch barrel.The last Bison was takin at 2050 fps.For SAAMI pressures the 350 Hornady RN at about 1950 fps and the 400 Speer at roughly 1800FPS.Both the Hornady and Speer would be out of a 24 inch barrel according to Hodgdons #27.There is about 20+ fps difference per inch of Barrel.
Good luck....Jayco

I am loading the Remington 405 gr. over 39.0 gr. of IMR 4198 for my buddy. Very accurate in my buddy's Marlin 45-70 and not a bad recoil in my opinion. I use 400 gr. Barnes X bullets meant for the .458 Win MAG in my Ruger #1 with the same 39.0 gr. of IMR 4198.

Jayco can you tell me where you saw that the 350RN at 1950 was at saami pressures. I have loaded that bullet from 1900 -2130 in a marlin but according to Hornady the 350 RN at 1900 fps is at 40000 which is much higher then saami I have the Hornady 5th edition and there lever action loads max at 40000 i was asking about the speer 400 grain bullet because the speer lever action data is held to 28000 i plan to get the 400 grain bullet to 1800 fps and was wondering if this was enough to take on a 600 pound black bear

A 400 Speer @ 1800 fps is certainly potent enough to take on a 600 lb bear !!They use that for elk and moose too.BTW in PA the last two years the top weights were over 800 lbs , the biggest was IIRC 862 lbs !

quote:

according to Hornady the 350 RN at 1900 fps is at 40000

Hornady only says its loads for the Marlin 1895 do not exceed 40,000 CUP. They do not specify if individual loads actually achieve it.

Another possibility is the 405 grain Remington JSP seated to 2.55" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die over 52 grains of IMR3031 with Winchester brass and CCI 200 primers for about 1820 fps (22" barrel).

Yes Mete i saw an article in NY's outdoor news about the PA bear season it said over 2700 taken during a three day season of which 56 bears were over 500 pounds and the largest was taken by a 17 year old hunter and it was well over 800 pounds We have what i believe is a 600 pounder and another around 500 on our property in Arkvill NY but most are usually around the 300 mark.

I just read an article by Elmer Keith about various 45-70 loads .The 300 @ 1800 has been around as a Winchester load for 100 years and does very well on deer. The 400 @ 1800 has been used for many years successfully on larger animals such as elk.Elmer liked it a lot.If you'd like a copy of the article send me a message with your email adress.

quote:

Jayco can you tell me where you saw that the 350RN at 1950 was at saami pressures.

Hodgdons #27 gives 48.5 grains of H-4198 at 2036 fps and 32,200 CUP in a "24 inch barrel".I mearly estimated a 4,000 CUP drop from 2036 fps to 1950 fps.1950 fps would be in the ball park of 1800 fps out of the Guide Gun and 1875 out of a 22 inch barrel.With H-335 and 54 grains they give a velocity of 1903 fps and 26,000 CUP.It's close but you know how guessing goes.If you reload your out the window for warrentee anyway and I had no idea from the post which rifle the poster had.A modern 45-70 can easily take 40,000 CUP but if it is the old Trapdoor then SAAMI or lower is better.They (Hodgdons) do not give trapdoor loads for the 350 Hornady.

They do give for the 400 grain Speer with 46 grains of H-4198 a velocity of 1854 fps and 29,500 CUP(24 inch barrel) so around 1800 fps should put you at SAAMI pressures.

Just guestimated what the SAAMI velocity would be in the 350 Hornady RN.It is close but if you have a Modern 45-70 it would not matter and if you did not, I would drop it even more.

Now I can see and have to edit.Hodgdons gives a velocity with the 350 Hornady RN of 2191 fps at 39,300 CUP out of a 24 inch barrel.

Good luck.....Jayco..PS.-I'm still not used to this new forum where you can't look back at what I'm posting about to make sure I'm on the right track.

I feel the speer 400 gr is the softest of the 400 gr bullets, I think the rem 405 gr may be a little more solidly constructed. The bullet I am very impressed with in the 45/70 is woodleigh's 405 gr flat point made especially for the 45/70, it opens up and hangs together very well.

PC-Here is a picture of a Remingtom 405 grain 45-70 bullet takin from a 300# Caribou.Personally I use the 405 grain Kodiak made in Alaska for the Big Bears by Alaskans.It is one tough bullet.


Jayco

Jayco thanks for your reply ,what you said does make sence, i have sent an e-mail to hornady about the pressure levels in there 1900fps loads with there 350 bullets , but they have not yet replyed .I do think i should try those H powders as i believe they do yeild lower pressures then some of the IMR powders The rifle in question will be coming in late summer its a 45/70 Spartan double rifle. Remington states for use only at saami 28000 psi but then so were so many other rifles but there has not been any testing with this rifle yet. I think i may have sparked the interest of this rifle with the guys over at buffalo bore as they told me not to try any of there ammo until they get familiar with this rifle. Thanks again Tanoose

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
Jayco thanks for your reply ,what you said does make sence, i have sent an e-mail to hornady about the pressure levels in there 1900fps loads with there 350 bullets , but they have not yet replyed .I do think i should try those H powders as i believe they do yeild lower pressures then some of the IMR powders The rifle in question will be coming in late summer its a 45/70 Spartan double rifle. Remington states for use only at saami 28000 psi but then so were so many other rifles but there has not been any testing with this rifle yet. I think i may have sparked the interest of this rifle with the guys over at buffalo bore as they told me not to try any of there ammo until they get familiar with this rifle. Thanks again Tanoose

Tanoose-Check this out offf of Randy Garretts web page.Tony Makris off of ESPN's "Under Wild Skies" with a 45-70 Goverment at way over 200 yards..

I can't remember and I'm afraid on the way this forum is to go back or I will loose it but I think it was 293 yards or close to it.Looks like a "Double 45-70" to me.

Jayco

If the Spartan Gun Works (Baikal) double rifle can shoot the 30-06 then it likely will safely digest 40,000 CUP 45-70 loads. Sounds like another member of SAAMI being a good member in standing.

Jaycocreek,

thanks for the pics, the speer 400 gr is ofter than that as I have had them split in two pieces on 150 pound roo's.

I always wonder why more Alaskans and Yanks have not given the 405 gr woodleigh 45/70 flat point a go...........you have the bigger game for it, it is one very good bullet and the best I have used, if I head way up North for hogs with my marlin 45/70 thats the bullet I will use.

Tanoose-The Woodleigh bullet speaks for itself but the Kodiak Bullet from Alaska is also a great Bonded Core bullet.The 405 grain Kodiak.



There are a "Few" good bullets for the .450 /45-70 out there that were "Not" made for the SAAMI of 28,000 and are built for the higher velocities the new 450/45-70 just does.

Take care...Jayco

My brother is going to use the 350 gr. Hornady FN over 53 grains of IMR 3031 on our June Idaho Black Bear hunt. It shoots great in his Marlin Guide Gun to 100 Yards. Our shots should be well under 40 yards.

Thanks everyone for your replies the 350 hornady used to be the best in my Marlin and maybe i'll go back to it in the Spartan but i was wanting to use a well constructed 400 grain bullet those woodleigh and kodiak bullets look good i think i'll give them a try. What about those northfork bullets i have seen them reccommended for the big bears i wonder if they wood work well on the black bear?

The 350 grain North Fork is an excellent bullet for the .450/45-70 and it can be loaded right up there because of the bearing surface it has.Lots of good choices these days out there including the new 350 grain Swift A-Frame made just for the 450/45-70.

The old "War Horse" is only getting better with everyone jumping on the new bandwagon with excellent bullets that hold up to high velocity impact.

Jayco