Is it right or wrong for an outfitter to pull you out of camp the next morning after wounding a brown bear without giving you a chance to stay and look for it other than a couple hours after the shots? In this instance the bear was hit 2 times with a 375 and three times with a 358 norma but got in a large and dense alder patch where he was jumped up at a distance of about 20 feet but bounded to the side before another shot could be fired. He was observed to have a large wound above the front shoulder and another behind the shoulder but high. The outfitter was reached in Anchorage by sat. phone and he said "the hunt is over" and sent in the plane. He said that in his 30 years experience he believed the bear would not be recovered. The hunter (me) and guide both wanted to stay and 5 days remained on the hunt. This doesnt seem right to me but is it normal practice in Alaska? I will never come to grips with myself for not making a better shot but equal to that is my bad feelings about not being able to stay and see what could be done about putting the animal out of its misery.

I think you already know the answer here. That is just not right. For a couple reasons.

1. You wounded it, you must follow it up and make a diligent effort to put it to an end.
2. You had 5 days left, what prevented you from seeing this bear again? Even if he would have lived, you might have had another shot at him.

Tell us his name so we can never book with this guy.

I would ask for a refund, then after he denies it to you, turn him in. This is not just a crime against a person, it is a crime against wildlife.

I am sorry this happened to you.

I am guessing, but don't all states have a due dilligence clause in their hunting laws regarding the follow up and recovery of game? I think that fella that called off the hunt should be guilty of a crime, as well as having his guiding rights revoked.

Something is wrong there. I believe every wounded grizzly must be tracked. That's one thing guides hate to do, but it is the humane and legal action to take.

There is an area high-and right behind the shoulder bone that usually keeps a bear going for a long time. I don't hunt bears, but I talk to bear hunters and memorize bear's anatomy. This area is high, and just above the lungs. A bear's heart is positioned low and between the front shoulder bones when the bear is standing broadside with legs side by side. If the bullet hits ahead of the shoulder bone it will hit the brisket and the bear will keep on going, but if it hits low on the shoulder bone it could go through the heart. The heart is much smaller than the lungs, so you have to aim carefully. The lungs extend UP from the brisket to about 1/3 of the bear's chest (measured from the brisket to the top). Aim slightly low so that the bullet strikes not higher than one-third up from the hide on the chest, or just a little lower if you want. A shot through the center of the lungs will kill it soon enough.

I feel bad for you. I obviously screwed up the shot on my Alaskan black bear hunt several weeks ago and was unable to recover the bear.
However, we came back the next morning and looked for several hours before throwing up the white flag. And the outfitter had no problems with me staying for the duration of the hunt, why should he? I paid for those days just like you did for yours. I'm sure it was spelled out in your booking contract that the hunt ends when you have collected or lost your bear, but to be in such a hurry to pull you out of camp without even a next morning's follow up search?
We'd all appreciate the name of this outfitter, and I'm sure that Alaska F&G would love to hear your story as well.

I'd spend the whole five days if I could.

This does not seem reasonable to me.

I don't know jack about bear hunting, but this doesn't meet a simple ethics test.

Don

I'm wiht the other guys...That's not right. Who is this outfitter? He needs to be exposed and charges brought against him if applicable!

Was this the big bucks brown bear hunt of a lifetime?

Tragic. Give him a chance to refund your money. Then report him to ADFG. Then spread his name all over the internet. Hopefully you won't need a lawyer in order to punish the bastard.

Of course, we have heard only one side of the story here ... Any corroborating witnesses to back you up if it comes to blows? Or will it be your word against his and his employee's?

My condolances.

This is hard to believe. Let's follow up on it.

A bear hit that many times is going to be one sick bear after a couple of hrs if the was hits were soild. My question is how to you know he was hit five times if you didn't recover him. You know that he was hit most likely twice and it sounds like they could of been flesh wounds. Was there much blood in the bed you jumb him out of what color was it was there any sign of a gut shot ect. Was there much of a blood trail was the blood high or low was it spraying or driping. I have track dozens of wounded critters. Tell us more about the blood trail.
<<<I agree that he should of been followed up and delt with if at all possible. Plus you had another five days to hunt. You could of ran into this bear or another one or just enjoyed your five days of wandering around the bush.

Several things...

1- The bear should have been tracked until found, or until the situation shows it can't be found.

2- The guide you were with should have had the last word on searching for it, not the owner of the company. After all, its the guide's responsibilty to follow up on wounded game.

3- Contact AF&G, and tell them about this. I'm sure they'd be interested.

4- Ask for a refund. Or partial refund..

5- You should have stood your ground, and demanded to look for it, after all, you paid for five more days, right? You took nothing home for your trouble, now make the outfitter deal with the trouble, legal-wise, with the AF&G he deserves. ~~~Suluuq

I appreciate everyones thoughts which will be printed and mailed to the outfitter (and others).
I hope he learns something from them - I have. Here is what I would change if it were possible: First - In hindsight, I wish I would have refused to leave camp. Secondly, I wish I would have asked the outfitter before booking the hunt whether I would be able to stay to track a wounded animal.
There are a lot of details I could discuss but what I truely wanted to know was whether it was standard practice among outfitters in Alaska to take the hunter out of camp so soon.
Actually, I dont blame the outfitter. He actually is a fine person and has no doubt helped hundreds of hunters to their dream. Most important,he wasnt doing the shooting. I was. However,I think he was wrong on this matter and evidently others do also.
As those of you that have done this know, it takes a lifetime of saving for this type of hunt. My only regret is for the suffering of the bear and hope he died quickly. Alaska was beyond everything I imagined it to be and I hope every hunter who is willing to save for it has the privilege of at least one hunt in this great place.

Palmer,

How can you say that the outfitter is a fine person? You did not realize your dream for sure!

You should have stood your ground and stayed. I have learned from experiance that if you resist lies and B.S. in a firm matter the big shots back down.

And if something seems wrong at first then it usually is wrong!

I for one would not have asked a outfitter that if a animal was wounded that it would be followed up. It's a given.

If the late Col. Townsend Whelan had read this he would have done something about it. And that outfitter would be out of business if this story is true.

Hi Palmer,

What was the cause for the guide to phone the outfitter and not just make the decision to stay and sort out the situation himself? I don't think that you were fairly treated being hauled out of the described situation. As mentioned by p dog shooter, did your guide not make some judgements based on the blood found etc or did he just phone the boss. With a full day follow up and recovery of your bear being possible think of the overall satisfaction that this would have brought you as compared to the decision that was made. I don't really think that the head guide is such a nice guy. What would he think of of being yanked out of a trip to Africa if he wounded a Cape Buffalo that had a possability of being recovered.

470 Mbogo

I think your outfitter is criminal. You just don't leave a wounded animal in the bush without exhausting every effort to dispatch it! Espescially anything with teeth. If it isn't in the game laws up there it should be, and he should be charged. Question is, if you left willingly, you may be charged too.

Leaving a dangerous animal serious wounded is like leaving a hand grenade in the bush or a land mine. What is that bear going to do if some innocent and totally unaware people bungle into him?

Your outfitter just wanted to save his own ass by getting you out of there before he risked you getting hit by the bear. I can understand his not wanting to have his clients eaten...but I would think he might have AT LEAST ordered YOU to stay in camp and told his guide/hunter to get out there and FINISH the bear.

I believe most places in Africa such a practice would get the guide's license yanked in a heart beat.

I believe I might have told him, "Send the plane if you like, but until I know that bear is down and dead, I'm not leaving." Of course this is easy for me to talk big 3,000 miles away...but something isn't right here. Hope you get it sorted out.

Palmer:

What did your contract say in regard to the situation you described?

PALMER YOU SHOULD NOT BACK OFF THIS GUY, DON'T LET UP ON HIM, EVERYONE MAKES BAD SHOTS, BUT WE OWE IT TO THE ANIMAL TO DO ALL WE CAN DO TO RECOVER IT, AS FOR THE OUTFITTER HE OWES YOU

Palmer,
With all respect to you and sympathy, I will withhold my comments until I have heard both sides of this story...

Who was the outfitter? This is almost without reason and rings of a lynch mob and it could be sour grapes on your part, or a deal like Butch Searcy just went through and I will not be a part of anything I don't know both sides...He is innocent until proven guilty.

If you are correct you need to bring this man to court and settle it where it can do you some good. Demand a full refund.

The internet is not a place to settle such a serious charge as you have made. His livelyhood is at stake here, his wife and childrens welfare and his reputation, that is something none of us on these boards should take lightly when we set ourselves up as judge and jury.........

That's MHO....

Palmer,
With all respect to you and sympathy, I will withhold my comments until I have heard both sides of this story...

Who was the outfitter? This is almost without reason and rings of a lynch mob and it could be sour grapes on your part, or a deal like Butch Searcy just went through and I will not be a part of anything I don't know both sides...He is innocent until proven guilty.

If you are correct you need to bring this man to court and settle it where it can do you some good. Demand a full refund. then tell all to the world.

The internet is not a place to settle such a serious charge as you have made. His livelyhood is at stake here, his wife and childrens welfare and his reputation, that is something none of us on these boards should take lightly when we set ourselves up as judge and jury. I do think we should post the end results of these conflicts.

That's MHO....

Palmer,

A terrible story. Nothing feels worse to a hunter than wounding a wonderful animal and not recovering it. I wounded a Springbok in Africa last year and, in spite of the mere $200 trophy fee, I failed to sleep well for the remaining three days of my safari. We looked for him until dark that night and for a good part of the next day before we changed areas. Your outfitter should have been sympathetic to you and allowed you the chance to make it right especially since you essentially PAID HIM for the right to do so as you had another five days.
In my opinion, your outfitter should be dropped off in the woods by the Alaska Dept. of Wildlife and required to track down that bear himself so the noble beast won't take his revenge on some tourist or hiker. We all mess up a shot now and again no matter how hard we hope and practice not too but you have experienced the worst of all possible worlds.
Best of luck in your quest for justice!

JohnTheGreek

I think your outfitter is a jerk......

If you paid for a certain number of days, but your outfitter was all in a rush to get you out of camp early, especially in light of a wounded bear, he's ripped you off big time.

Don't let this matter slide - settle it to your satisfaction. You don't owe this cowboy anything but contempt.

AD

Ditto, Allen.

Palmer, I think perhaps YOU are too nice a fellow. Were I in your shoes and they tried that, the wounded bear would have been the second most dangerous thing in the area. But you're home now so our harping about what you should have done is a waste of time and of no help to you. If nothing else, you owe it to the fellow hunter who may, one day, book with this man, to go after him.

Grizzly Bears no matter what size almost never go down with the first shoot. More often the turn and be gone within a split second into the thick stuff before another good hit can be placed.

SOP. after the shooting has stopped. Reeload your rifle immediately, then be absolutely still, stay where you are and listen. If nothing happens within 10 minutes back off. DO NOT FOLLOW THE BLOOD TRAIL NOW.

Go back to Camp and get your trusted Dog. If you have been guidet then the Outfitter will have a good Dog and will go out and get that Griz for you but not before a minimum of 2 hours has passed otherwise even a nearly dead Grizzly will go on forever.

In the final stage if the Grizz if still alive he will wait and will rush you.Be prepared and have your safety off. You will feel like a newborn after its all over, good luck and take care.

Been there and done that many times, Carl.

Ps. Before I would comment on that Outfitter you describing I would be interested what the AK Game department had to say about this matter.

I will try to answer some of the questions to me and provide more detail.
Question - Was it a big bucks hunt of a lifetime -yes , definately.
Various comments about refunds: The outfitter phoned me about a week after I arrived home. He said he was just following up to see how I felt about the hunt. I told him I still did not feel right about his pulling me out of camp the next morning. He said he made that decision based upon his 30 years and 300 bears experience and from the fact that the bear had traveled over 3 miles from where he was first shot. I did not ask for and he did not volunteer a refund. I would have refused it if he did. He did offer a 20 percent discount on a future hunt if I were interested. I am not.
Question: how did I know he was hit 5 times? I do not know that for sure but here is how it went to the best of my memory. I tried the first shot at 200 yds in a strong cross wind. The bear was walking diagonally away. I tried a raking shot at the front shoulder. I should never have tried any shot. I suspect I hit the back rump because he immediately spun left and started running across a snow field. There were a couple of shots with no reaction from him then at my fourth shot he stopped and reared up facing us and waved his front paw a couple of times above his head. Then he dropped down and ran again but at the guides shot while I was reloading the bear reared up and waved its paw again. I think these were the two shots that hit the shoulder area. Then the guide jumped up and said "now we chase". I could not keep up with him but saw him stop and fire. The bear was obviously hit but continued up a steep snow slope - he was weaving back and forth. The guide ran under him and at the shot the bear sat down and rolled down the slope. Then he got up and ran to the left and into a big alder patch. The guide was out of bullets - he had left his pack at the orginal ambush site. The guide said we should wait for a while before going in. The packs were retreived and guns reloaded. (I mentioned before that the guide later jumped him at less than a pickup truck length but could not get a shot. Thats when he seen the wounds Fortunately,the bear didnt charge him.)
Since it was now 10 pm the guide suggested we go back to camp and continue in the morning. We reached camp after midnight. The next morning the guide called the outfitter on the satellite phone.
Question - Why did the guide call the outfitter? I dont know and didnt ask at the time. I presume he was just reporting in to the boss.
Now for the part I should have put in the first post - the rest of the story as Paul Harvey says. As the outfitters people and the guide was helping put me on the plane to Anchorage I was complaining that this was not right and the guide said to let him try to talk to the outfitter and that I should call him when I get to Anchorage. I dont know why I didnt stay at that time. Later that evening from my hotel in Anchorage I called the guide and he said the outfitter had given us permission to go back into the area and look. I said I would be back on the next flight. The next flight turned out to be the next afternoon and we went back in and to make a long story shorter, could not find the bear or any sign of him although the better part of two days were spent searching. It was very spooky in those dense alders for a novice like me. There were some dens in this area and maybe thats where he went. The snow was melting fast and where he was last seen there wasnt much anyway. We did see two other trophy bears at very close range but of course did not shoot. This second excursion cost me about $1,800 for bush plane flights plus another tip for the guide. It was the best money I spent on the whole trip.
My reason for the original question was not to crucify an outfitter that I know is legitimate but simply to find out if being pulled out of camp the next morning is normal in Alaska -perhaps to minimize the impulse to shoot another bear. It haunts me wondering if we had got on the trail the next morning would we have found him rather than trying days later. My biggest regret is not losing a trophy but the bears suffering. Did he get in a den and die a painful death or did he recover only to injure some fisherman this summer?
The main fault is not with the outfitter although I still think he was wrong on this one decision. The main fault is with my initial decision to shoot and the lack of good shooting. These animals are too valuable to mess up like that. Maybe the outfitter was right all along and the bear was not recoverable. At any rate, this is in my opinion a good outfitter and Im not out to get him in any manner nor am I interested in a refund. I am going to send him these posts and suggest he tell his potential hunters his policy on staying in camp to track wounded bears.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by palmer:
HI Palmer,
With that said your "experienced" guide should never have let you take such a poor shot knowing through experience that you would probably see more bears with a very good possibility of a better shot. Especially with 5 days left.

470 Mbogo

Palmer,
I agree. A 200 yard shot at a bear of that size in a stiff crosswind should not have been okayed by your guide. It sounds like this might have been your first trip to Alaska. Your guide is payed to get you close enough to make a clean and humane shot. 200 yards should have never been taken or okayed. It is hard to loose an animal but don't beat yourself into the ground it happens to everybody at one time or another. You should have been given the right to follow up the next morning. Anyone that hunts knows that you don't wait two days to follow a blood trail. Hope you get closure, good luck. Tony Kunch

Ray Atkinson
Good post

IMHO The guide also deserves a kick in the arse for leaving his reserve ammo behind.

I'll bet the bear fully recovers. If he was hit hard, he would have been easy to find when you went back.

Sorry to hear your dilemma. A good guide keeps his ammo on his person within easy reach not in his pack. When things go to hell in a hand basket you would be suprised how much ammo can be spent. One of his responsibilites is to back up the hunter. On bears I instruct the hunter to keep shooting until the bear is down, this is with any bear. Alot of times an insurance shot will be added after the bear is down. Sounds like you got a bum guide, not uncommon in N.America these days. MtnHtr

If the outfitter didn't want you to take a shot at another bear........that's one thing. But I would have told them that if they wanted me out of camp with five days left.......they would have to call law enforcement because I wasn't leaving for five days. In that five days I would have spent the whole time looking for any bear that resembled this one and appeared to be wounded......But that's just me! You just have to stand your ground with some people.

Dad gone, the thought of that bear will stay with you for a lifetime. Sorry to hear about your hunt. And I believe your story. Alot of these outfitters does not care much about ethics and treats the animals as products on a store shelf. But part of this lies on your shoulders. People, everywhere will rip you off if you let them. I am sure you thought of this, but should have demanded to track the bear. We all do things we regret and in retrospec wish we could change them so I am not beating you up on it. But it sound like there is still time to make a difference. I have had some of the best experiences you can ask for and a few bad with outfitters. On a Lake Erie fishing trip that I wasn't able to take with my usual charter for 10 years, one captain said he was calling the police and threaten to shoot me and everything cause I refused to pay him. So I picked up my phone, and said "let me call them for you". He had a satisfaction guaratee and I wasn't satisfied. Well the police showed up and told me to pay the man cause of course they were buddies. I explained I was ready to spend the night in jail if need be cause I believed in my principles and charging someone with a crime unjustly has hefty consiquinses these days for the police. So I called the state police to handle the matter, which didn't take kindly to the captain having a pistol talking about shooting and all. So I didn't pay the man and I didn't go to jail and I didn't get shot. Long story why the trip was a mess, but I even called the coast guard cause the ship was such in a wreck, I didn't think it was up to standards for a charter boat. He was charged with a few minor things. My point is, I was tempted several times to pay the man the money and just to forget about it and call it a lesson. But looking back it was worth my 4 hours of time and energy to make the situation right.

Ray Ad, I understand what you are saying, but anyplace is the place to say anything you want. Freedom of speech is a bitch for leaders of this Country. Besides the right to bear arms, its my favorite freedom. Even if it is bullshit.

I'm sorry to hear of stories like this for several reasons. My knee jerk reaction was also to look down at the guide and question the outfitter. BUT!, I also know that there are times when it would be best to get someone back to town!

I don't know Palmer and am not saying one way or the other about him personally. Given the end result of not finding the bear and not knowing what the guide saw it may have been a good choice to remove the customer from the situation. Possibly trailing the bear after the customer is gone. Whats to say this didn't happen between his departure and arrival back at camp? It would be interesting to hear the other side of this story. Second guessing a situation after the fact, without all the details, and hind sight being 20/20 is unfair. Depending on the situation I may not have wanted to be chasing a wounded bear and watching a customer to boot!

Is there much to the other side of the story?
Perhaps to answer this... why take the hunter away from continuing tracking this bear? And to have to pay more money to do it a day or two later?
Its the hunter's responsibility to make sure the shot is as best as it can be, at any given moment.
Its the guide's responsibility to track and find it. Or declare it can't be found, after a search is done within allowable time.
Still, I don't understand why Palmer was taken out? To save him from the situation? Perhaps. So, why send him back after taking him out, and charging him more money to do it?
In any case, has the bear been searched for, after Palmer went home, or did they give up the search entirely? ~~~Suluuq

Palmer,

In the past I had a similar bad expirience with a "guide" which almost made me give up stalking; luckily
I eventually ignored the guide and sorted the situation myself, as I should done in the first place.

I do not doubt your version of events, and to your credit you have not tried to shrug the responsibility of pulling the trigger.

I would however like to hear the guides and outfitters version. The outfitter seems to be relying on what the guide said to him during that phone call... I wonder if the guide was trying to cover his own ass?

Anyways, sorry your hunt ended in this way, and better luck on your future hunts,

Regards,

Peter

Bad luck Palmer.

Every one that hunts will make mistakes sometime. But we must be given the chance to make it right!

I hope it never happens again. It sound like you was screwed. It can't be right.

Good luck on you next hunt. Hope you get a better "guide" and outfitter next time.

Johan

[ 06-27-2002, 01:00: Message edited by: 308winchester ]

Palmer after you related the rest of the story, if all of this is factual, maybe your outfitter is not so bad. Normally, the bear must be followed up no matter what, but it sounds like your guide was exactly that, "a guide" with little experience. The outfitter at the least does not want the publicity of having someone chewed up and it appears that he did not have a lot of confidence in the guide.
Your admission of a risky shot under poor conditions (200 yds in a strong cross wind at a quartering bear) is quite brave in my opinion. It can be all our worst dream, but move on and learn from it and practice off-hand shooting where you can determine your reasonable limit. "A man must know his limitations", is not bad advice.
Your guide should never have let you take that shot under those conditions, if he was not a viable backup to you. In these cases, the poor animal and you both loose and some unsuspecting fisherman/hunter could have a pissed off brownie on their hands.
Does the outfitter owe you money? Probably, a 20% reduction on the next hunt or pay for 5 days would equal out.
Apparently, in Alaska there are great guides and then there are those who surface during the hunting season for part time work. A license is required, but not a level of training as required of a PH in Africa.

Don't give up on your dream of the brown bear!!

pm

Palmer,
Yes, it truly sounds like you had an incompetent guide who may have been lazy as well, who may have been covering his arse with bad poop to the outfitter to get himself off the hook.

Or, did the guide say you were blubbering petrified and needed a rest in Anchorage? Were you too timid or unfit to push on and finish the chore, to insist on your rights?

The somewhat evasive and apologetic way that you are revealing more details in subsequent posts makes me wonder what else there is to tell.

A 200 yard shot in a stiff wind at a moving bear is just asking for trouble. Your "guide" should definitely not have allowed it. Was he a fatso not fit for duty? Was he just trying to get out of work, to cut the hunt short, by risking a shot like that.

I would not blame you for taking a shot like that with the guide's O.K., as the excitement and unfamiliar terrain and game may have made you misjudge the situation. A really huge bear would really look close on snow and good light: deceptive.

NO, IT IS NOT USUAL PRACTICE TO PULL A HUNTER OUT OF CAMP THE NEXT DAY AFTER WOUNDING A BEAR AND FAILING TO FIND IT.

We really need to hear the other side of the story or just mourn in silence over this. More free speech is needed here, from the outfitter, to see what the weasel of a guide told him about you and the situation.

BTW, your guide was not using a 450 Marlin Guide Gun was he? If so, then you done been had for sure.

plamer

Your outfitter and you are in trouble for not following up and killing the bear.
if you check the regs.There is a wanton waste law in Alaska.
But then the guide should have tracked it.If the fish and game hears about it then all 3 of you are going to be charged.