I was really scratching my head about which forum to put this one into. I figured this was as good as any.

I've been looking at gunsafes but I haven't really seen one that does everything I think it should. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to build a concrete block room in the basement. I could easily lay up a room say 4'x6' out of concrete blocks, pour a concrete ceiling over it and install good door on it. Would I be correct in thinking that it would be more firesave with a 6" thick block wall than a 3" thick slab like those found in safes? Would it be better to leave the block hollow or fill it with granular insulation like vermeculite?

What would be a good door? My thoughts are a steel firedoor out of a commercial building. It wouldn't be too hard to put 2 or 3 damned good deadbolts into the door-should be quite secure.

Any thoughts?

The chef

Rebar the concrete walls and ceiling and buy a vault door from Liberty, etc. Alot of the safe companies sell six foot + tall vault doors with inside emergency exit hardware. Also make sure that you put a removable plug for ventilation just in case also.

Good idea and I've put a lot of thought and planning in this as well, couple things to keep in mind:
Fill the voids in the block with concrete or grout if you don't anyone can break in to your safe room with nothing so much as a hammer, they also make a re-inforcing mesh that lays on the block grouted into the grout line between blocks that boosts the walls overall strength considerably. A good commercial fire rated door and jamb would be okay but I could break into that in under a minute with a hack saw and a screw driver add a good deadbolt and you would slow me down for an additional 3 minutes, instead look for a company that makes a regular gun safe door and frame that you cement in to your concrete block room. For the ceiling you can get pre cast concrete panels from any concrete pre cast companies but be sure to buy them only as big as you and a buddy can handle, cover the exterior concrete ( or block) of your room with sheetrock 5/8" thick for added fire proofing. Make sure you add lighting and outlets preferably in conduit inside, that and some built in gun racks and you are set!
Good Luck

PS: the safe door company I checked with was out of Utah, maybe Salt Lake. They offered free delivery in 48 states.

Some more thoughts. I was thinking about putting a metal pan on the ceiling to hold the concrete when I poured it. The ceiling would be rebared and tied into the walls with rebar. That would make it stronger than hell. It will be almost to the basement ceiling and that in itself makes it hard to get at to break through the vault ceiling. The thoughts about an emergency escape on the door and ventilation are good. It's kind of sad I din't think of that one myself-it's just like a walk in cooler is set up.

If I rebar and fill the blocks with concrete or mortar how will it affect the "fire proofness?" Would it make more sense to make a double wall of the 4" thick blocks rather than a single thickness of the 6" ones" That way there would be one layer of filled blocks with an airspace between it and the interior hollow blocks?

thanks for the ideas

Actually a solid wall would be best but, I can't imagine actually placing the cement in an existing basement.

I'd just use the regular CBs and use the reinforcing wire that is made for the joints as suggested. Yes, you need to fill the voids in the blocks with regular concrete and you need reinforcing in them as well. There also is a problem of how to get the reinforcement rods in the holes because you are building it from slab to slab, you can either use shorter rods and add them as you build the wall or you could use steel braided cable from the bottom to the top in each hole. The wall and ceiling are not that difficult, the problem is the door.

I would do one of two things for the door, I would call a safe company and order a vault door as suggested or I'd have one built locally. 3 layers of 5/8" fire rock sandwiched inbetween two flat pieces of 1/4" steel and a frame with tamper proof hinges like those found on most gun safes. I saw one homemade safe that had a normal pad lock inside of a small steel box where nothing but your hand would fit in to unlock the pad-lock therefore it couldn't be cut.

I'd also trim out the exterior of the entrance door-way of the block wall with angle iron. Weld tabs on the angle iron that go into the mortar joints so you can install the iron while building the wall and the tabs will securely hold the iron. You can weld your cutsom door to the iron. The door would need to lap over the angle iron with a lip and you could apply a fireproof seal between the overlap and the angle iron door frame.

There's all kind of ways to skin a cat....


Good Luck

Reloader

When you lay your blocks up install two #5 bars in each cell and every 4' lay two horizontal bars, one one each side of your vertical bars. You could add more as more is better. I mean maybe every two feet lay in you horizontals.You will have to notch your next course of blocks but that is easy to do. Just knock a chunck out with your masons hammer. Every four feet stop and make a pour with hi-strength grout and fill each cell in the blocks. Debolt safe and door company in Ohio sell a vault door and frame for such an application. Set the frame and make sure it is plumb and square so when you set the door all is good. In a couple of the cells I would run some rigid conduit for your electrical. In the ceiling you could use pan decking but make sure you buck out an area for a ventilation fan. Make sure you run conduit for this. Debold has a vault door that uses a four number combination which I think is better than the standard three number as common theaves think all are three number. I've done all this before and when finished I built a false wall around the vault to hide things. The only thing to look out for is that you use enough steel to prevent someone from slipping through if they break your block. Cast in place concrete is better than block but more expensive and harder to set up. Steel is the key. Ventilation is criticle. Vent down low (via buck out with a small grill) vent fan up hi. Good luck and you will have a nice area that you will feel safe with. Estimated cost is around $25.00 to $30.00 a square foot. Electrical and ventilation extra.

I have a friend that built a vault and he was astounded at the price he had to pay for a vault door. You'd better check on vault door prices before you spend/waste a bunch of planning time.

Seems that he paid $2200 for just the door and I can't remember what the shipping was but it was a shock too.

I went for a premium safe and a high dollar alarm system plus a few personal touches including remote storage of rifle bolts so if someone actually does penetrate my defenses and gets into my safe he gets rifles with no bolts. <evil sneer>

Plus... Get good insurance and quit worrying about it. Several friends of mine worry all the time about having their guns stolen and my answer to them is simply.... "It ain't worth it... Get a life."

Note: The NRA gun insurance has absolutely no requirement that you "register" your guns with them like many insurance companies have. You only have to furnish serial numbers and proof you had them AFTER the loss.

Life is too short to worry all the time about having your guns stolen.

$bob$

OH... And one more thing... If you DO end up having a burglary and they are targeting your guns then, from what I'm told, 95% of the time the burglars found out about your collection from your BIG MOUTH directly or indirectly!!!

Resist the temptation to brag about your collection to ANYBODY!!! Especially your neighbors!

Local insurance agents are notorious big mouths and FFL dealers are bad too. You can bet your kids are bragging at school that their daddy has a BUNCH of really cool guns.

Heck... I've had guys at gun stores tell me, a perfect stranger, about old "so and so" that buys a LOT of guns...

I'd like to have a dollar for every time I've heard someone tell me... "Old so and so has a bunch of guns"... Amazing... Are they advertizing or what?

If you think people can be told about your guns and trusted to keep their mouth shut, then you're dead wrong. It's a juicy piece of gossip that people just can't possibly resist telling. Eventually it will likely get to the wrong people and your collection will get targeted.

I had 11 long guns stolen in 1986 and know the pain and anger and I swore it wouldn't happen to me again and yes it was my BIG MOUTH that likely caused it... <sigh>

OH yeah... Get rid of the guns you aren't using or don't need... They're just dead weight and you lessen your exposure when you sell them and you end up being able to fit them all in one safe.

$bob$

A good vault can house a lot more than just your guns. Don't be afraid to accomplish something you want.

I considered going the vault route when building my new house, but ultimately rejected it as excessive and inconvenient for my purposes and goals, and ended up simply building the (main) safe into the structure. I also have smaller safe(s) located in inconspicuous places to hedge my bets and make a burglar's job more difficult. However, you my reach a different conclusion due to your personal circumstances, so go for the vault if you like. The vault also makes an excellent storm shelter.

I would suggest finishing both the exterior and interior vault walls with sheetrock (drywall). This not only adds significant fireproofing, it is also relatively inexpensive and improves the appearance. If you'll place a simple exterior-type metal entrance door over the vault door, this will disguise the vault as "just another room", plus it will require a few minutes of extra work on the part of the would-be burglar in order for him to find that he has only gained access to a vault door and the hard work is still in front of him. The more discouragement the better.

One more suggestion: After all of this, the cost of medium-duty safe is very little in addition. Buy a safe and place it INSIDE your vault in a concrete shell. Use it for your most prized guns -- the ones with sentimental or other value than cannot be replaced. Leave your Remington 700s and Rugers on racks in the vault for the burglars and insurance company to worry with. A burglar will have a hard time resisting taking the easy stuff to spend another half-hour breaking into the safe to go for what he thinks might be the bigger prize. And if he does, there's all the more chance he will be detected and foiled.

One more piece of advice. Everyone has a few guns that are relatively inexpensive and unimportant to your collection. Place those in some place that a potential burglar is certain to find FIRST, perhaps even in one of the cheap sheetmetal gun cabinets available from Walmart, etc. An unsophisticated burglar will think he has found your "stash" and will happily make off with your Sears .22, your Mossberg bolt action shotgun, a Chinese SKS, a Turkish Mauser, and your beloved RG .38 revolver. Be sure to put a bunch of odds and ends of ammunition with the "bait" guns, none of which fits any of the guns present. Add some fake bond certificates in the amount of several tens of thousands of dollars that you can purchase off of the internet. This will screw him up even more.