I am booked for my first western hunt. It is a horseback elk hunt in southwestern Montana. I need a pair of binoculars and have decided they are going to be a roof prism model in either 8x42 or 10x42. Which magnification would the western hunters recommend? Keep in mind that this elk hunt is my first western hunt with possibly a second hunt planned for antelope and mule deer.

[ 06-02-2002, 04:47: Message edited by: CraigP ]

I think for elk hunting in southwest Montana you'd be better off with the 8x42's. You may be hunting in timber quite a bit and 10x may be a little too much, and they're harder to hold steady.

Two votes for the 8X.

Tim

I use 10x40's and prefer the extra magnification as it helps judge animals better and helps pick out animals better at long distances.

[ 06-15-2002, 01:51: Message edited by: centerpunch ]

Craig--Funny you should ask, as I have of recent become pretty annoyed at the direction binocular makers have gone, only to realize that they sell what people want, whether or not the choice is logical, to wit: The only time I think anyone will ever need a 10X bino is if they are trying to put horns on cows or small bulls, or if they are trying to break Boone & Crockett records and spend a lot of time comparing. A good bull shows up fine at 1/2 mile with 7X--and is easier to find do to increased field of view and depth of field. That said, after my second pair of Nikon 7x50's quit working, I could not locally find any decent quality glasses in 7X. Ended up with Burris 8x40's, but feel a bit hamstrung for the aforementioned reasons. I've also tried 10X's and was disappointed . 8's are you best choice, in my opinion.

I think a lot of consideration should be given to HOW you plan to hunt. I had been using some big 7x bino's and thought they were fine, then I was trying to judge horns at a distance and the 7x was of little use. I bought some 10x42's and used them on a backpacking trip for Mule deer and they were just the ticket! I would have to say if you are hunting off horseback or from a short distance to the road the weight of a spotting scope is worth its effectiveness. If walking in an open country hunt I think the 10x is great for spot and stalk type hunting. They will let you judge if you even want to invest the time of a stalk in an animal that may be smaller than it looks. When hunting in a heavily timbered area I find I don't use my glasses as much and at times don't even take them. It's that much less weight around my neck. I wouldn't mind a pair of mid sized 7x or 8x for timber if they have a fast focus.

I guess all this rambling is simply an attempt to put into words what I have experienced. I may change my mind again, but for now I am one of "those guys" who like the 10x as a alternative to packing in a spotting scope and wearing compacts around the neck.

Craig, everyone has different thoughts on binoculars and all binoculars are a compromise weighted towards one bias or another.

There is no "perfect" binocular for every situation. Out on the plains you would think that 10x would be perfect... problem is, except for early morning, mirage becomes a real problem. Any bino with a 42-50mm objective is going to be bulky and heavy. Since the actual advantages of their extra light gathering ability is debatable, I'm biased towards smaller, lighter bino's.

More important than magnification is glass/coating QUALITY. The "best" quality glass "resolves" detail better than the cheaper stuff... that's the name of the game... resolving detail.

I use a pair of Swaro 7x30's... 7 power is, to me, "ideal" in a lightweight, easy carrying binocular. The only thing that would make them better is if they were 7x35 (the best ocular/objective ever conceived). Unfortunately, most binoculars are designed for birder's who are seeking Warbler's high in tree tops in darkly lit forrests... not slogging through blow-downs on a steep mountain slope at 8,000 feet in the Absaroka's weighed down with a rifle and backpack while chasing elk.

Chuck mentioned the 7x's ability to judge a bull at 1/2 mile... he's on the right track. Two years ago in the early morning I was in a high alpine meadow glassing 1 MILE across a steep valley to a ridge broken with meadows and trees. I spotted three bulls in a tiny meadow going to bed. From 1 mile with my Swaro's I could easily see which was the best of the three bulls. It took me 3.5 hours and a "death march" to put myself in position to shoot the biggest bull in his bed... a 6 pt that went 313 B&C.

As my experience illustrates, the 7x30's had plenty of magnification and the Swaro's ability to "resolve" detail are second to none!

If I were buying binoculars tomorrow I'd get either the Swarovski 7 or 8x30's or the Leica 8x32's... if Leica made their BN's in 7x32 that'd be what I'd get, period! These binocular companies are pretty smart. They're appealing to the average person's "bigger is better" and "more is better" thinking. They have a margianlly higher cost in building a pair of 10x42's over 7x35's, yet are able to charge substantially more for them... cash flow my friend!

Sometimes more is not more!

My bias,

Brad

PS... don't skimp on glass... "find" the money and buy the best you can.

[ 06-02-2002, 20:00: Message edited by: Brad ]

Kuplmont:

I live in SW Montana but that fact does not make me a more informed chap regarding bin's than some one living in elewhere. More to the point is the fact that I have had the good fortune to hunt all of the western states, the western provinces of Canada(including the Yukon and the NW terrorties), Mexico for sheep, Turkey for ibex, and six trips to Africa.

Many of these hunts relied heavly on the use of glasses and I have tried all sizes and all the best brands. The best glasses are the German but the best value are the Nikon and Pentax. May I suggest that you not buy the lighter size. They just do not do the job for extended use.

One should pay more attention the the second number of a glass since it relates to the light gathering ability of the glass. The first number relates to the magnification and the 7 or 8 power will do the job nicely unless you are going to be a full time sheep guide, then go up to the 12.

I current use a Leica 8 X 50. They are a litte heavery than I would choose but the get the best light gathering glass(which I deem to be the most feature of a glass)one has to have a litte more weight.

I think a lot of hunters choose the higher magnification because they do not have the experience to spot game under field conditions, hence they get more "power" to hepl them out. Big mistake in my view since experience will allow one to find game in all condition with a 7 or 8 power.

Go with the 10X. I found as I grew older, I liked the extra magnification.

Also I found that if I had a 7x or 8x binocular, and a higher power scope, I used the scope, and the binoculars just hung around my neck, unless I was glassing a lot of country or looking at a two-legged critter.

Since the advent of rangefinders, I find the binocular to be my least important piece of optics. (I haven't bought a rangefinder, but I enjoy playing with my guide's. I like my guide to have a nice spotting scope to, saves me having to buy one of them.)

Oh now I see! Big heavy 7x or 8x binos are the best for all hunting if you have experience.

When you have little or no experience can you only spot game not in the field?

I guess this is a point that I'm amazed at, as most sheep and mountain goat guides carry spotting scopes, and to say someone doesn't have enough experience to spot game they'll choose higher power is cracked! Higher magnification makes the field of view smaller but if you know where and how to glass it's a mute point. I have pretty darn good eye-sight and yet really don't like the big glass.
When backpacking weight is a premium. The smaller size are a compromize in light gathering but by far handier. A Truly big trophy like an Elk is pretty easy to see at half a mile. Pronghorn at a half mile are pretty easy to misjudge.
I do agree the Pentax weather proof 8x is a good bet, but I still think recommending big glasses as a first pair for western US is not as versitile as a 8x or 10x midsize.
The coatings, exit pupil size , and clarity are the same considerations that go into selecting a scope. What type of scope do you like best and what power is most useful? may be a good question before a recommendation.
After giving this "what should I get?" question a bit more thought I would say If you aren't used to glassing then the 10x may be harder to use. If you've been using 7 or 8x and don't get lost as to where you're looking with them then 10x may be what you want if the lower power ones don't seem like enough.
The 42mm objective will pass plenty of light! If you can't see with that much then you shouldn't be thinking about shooting either!
I am using some 10x42 but would probably been pleased with 8x42's. I just happen to have gotten a good deal and let the money weigh in on the decision. I don't have regrets and wonder if I'd have gotten 8x's would I be satisfied or still wanting the bit higher magnification?

I happen to own two 8X, one 9X and one 10X binocular.
I bought an 8X42 Leica the last time, not a 10X. Why ? The 8X will be just smidge sharper an image due to it's larger exit pupil. It also works better in low light situations for the same reason. And they are easier to hold/less tiring to the eyes for that reason as well.
I live and hunt in the west. In fact, I'm a desert hunter. And I mean the low, warm, driest deserts you'll find anywhere in North America. I have finally decided I need the utmost image clarity, not magnification.
Whatever you do, buy a top name brand. Leica and Zeiss are it. Swaro's record for staying fog free isn't what I like, so I don't consider them. I do understand, or have been told, their problems have been fixed, but I fail to see what they offer over the others.
I know several who use the Pentax DCF WP's. They love them.
I understand that both Leica and the above Pentax models are certified waterproofed under the japanese standards for this. I don't recall that any others are.
And don't get any compact models. If they don't have at least a 4 mm exit pupil, skip them. The small, lighter binos are so hard to use, they are useless for hunting. E

A few years back I settled on a pair of Cabela's 10 X 20 compacts. You couldn't take them off my cold dead neck or out of my shirt pocket. I got tired of having a heavier pair making my neck sore, banging into everything and being a general pain when I had to get down and crawl. I can carry the pair I have in either my shirt pocket or stuff them inside my jacket and zip up. I like them just fine and they don't cost an arm and a leg. (Around a hundred bucks.) When my first pair got stolen, I didn't hesitate to buy the exact pair as a replacement. They are something I got comfortable with and wouldn't want to replace, sort of like an old dog or a good wife.

I have a pair of 10x42 and 8x30 and one is as good as the other as far as I'm concerned...I use them both and have never been able to make up my mind which is best. Kinda like the 270 and 30-06, lots of debate but it really makes not one bit of difference....

I looked long and hard before I bit the bullet and spent a grand on new glasses. I ended up with Swarovski SLC 7 X 42. I tried all sizes, shapes, and power and I found 10X and up caused me to get a headache with extended use because the power magnified movement, even my breathing caused a jumped in my view.
I've used my 7X42's in Wyoming, Montana, Oklahoma and Northern Quebec and found clearity much more important than power.
If I ever have to replace my SLC (and I don't think it'll happen) I would look at the new Swarvoski's in 8.75X

Craig, I have been looking over your post and the responses and you have a wealth of information being offered here. These guys have tried lots of stuff and have offered good information.

Upon a little thought I wondered if living in PA you might not use binoculars as much as those that live in open country. If that is the case I would not jump onto any 10 power glasses right off the bat. They are great when needed, but are not for people who have not used binoculars quite a bit already.

Personally, I have migrated from Bushnell, to Pentax, to Leupold, to Swarovski, and I can tell you good glass is worth every penny you spend on it. I sold a perfectly good pair of Leupold 10 power binoculars after I bought my Swarovski 7 X 30 pair.

I feel absolutely helpless without a good pair of binoculars when hunting these days. I love my Swarovski 7 X 30's and would not trade them for much of anything. Having said that, my dad has a pair of 8 X 30's that are also great. AND, he owns a pair of the new 10 X 42 Swarovski EL's that are abolutely amazing, even if they are VERY expensive and a little on the heavy side.

So, my advice is to stay with the 7 or 8 power glass for now and buy the very best you can afford.

Good Luck on your hunt.

R F

I vote for 10x42s. I use my Leicas a lot. Out west for elk and antelope, in the midwest for whitetails, and everywhere for everything from dickie birds to butterflies to misc. plants. 10 bys are really great, esp if you have to deal with regs like brow tines longer than 6" or whatever.

I've compared 8x32s and 10x42 Leicas side by side in Africa and for general viewing, it was hard to choose between them, but for picking nits on things where it makes a BIG difference, I like my 10s. And I like them in the timber too. I know exactly whether that twig is a twig or tine.

But for sure, 8x Leicas are better than 10x binos of lesser quality. Done those side by side comparsions too.

Brent

Little nate:

The view from Montana is that after one removes the Fruits and Nuts from California only the Flakes are left!

Please identify yourself--Fruit, Nut or Flake.

Woody,
I am a Nut! Gun Nut, Hunting Nut, Shooting Nut, ect. You get the idea.
Interesting how much you assume about others! Being from Montana you are obviously an expert on many subjects. We all should probably seek your wisdom on all things and give away all our worthless possesions.
I am so sorry I didn't consult with you before offering my point of view. (at 10x)

Lots of good information here and most of these guys have actually hunted out west, so it must be right! LOL
I wouldn't feel out of place with either a good pair of 8X or 10X and I prefer my 10X most of the time. I can see into the woods just fine without binoculars, so I carry them with me most of the time for looking across canyons or meadows or to make out a detail that might or might not be a game animal. Sometimes that means 10X to me, especially if it is in the brush or edge of the trees at any real distance.
One thing I wouldn't waste my money on is 50MM objectives on any binocular. The extra weight and size is just not needed for 99% of hunting situations, and if you are lugging those things around all day chances are you're going to find yourself leaving them in camp or in the truck after awhile.
Go to a good store that stocks some of the good glass and find what is comfortable to you- but buy the good stuff first. I find that the biggest difference in the best glass is how the ergonomics of the binoculars fit my hands. The Swarovskis seem to fit my hands best, but the Leicas are also very good. IMHO, the Zeiss have the best glass but they don't fit my hands well.
Try the 8X and the 10X side by side and see which one works for you. I think you'll find there really isn't that much difference in them if the glass is really good. Detail is everything when it comes to binoculars and both sizes will resolve better than most hunters' eyes in the Zeiss, Swarovski, Leicas, Minox, Kahles, and a few others.
If you are on a budget check out the Minox and the Kahles. These binoculars are manufactured by Leica and Swarovski respectively, and have very good glass for about 60% of the cost. I talked to several people who know glass very well and their description is 95% of the performance for 60% of the cost (describing the Minox and Kahles).
Well, you should have plenty of options now- go spend some money! Check out the SWFA.com sample list for some great prices- Sheister

Shiester, The reason I like 7x50's, which were in fact a pain to carry (learned to stick them down my shirt to stop the incessant bouncing on my chest) has to do with my style of hunting and maybe no one elses. If I have to hunt during "regular season" I do not quit hunting during the middle of hot and sunny days. I know where to look for bedded animals in the parts of oregon I hunt, and need the improved depth of field and field of view to do this sucessfuly--I do not need power. What I do is select appropriate clearcut units with 6' or so reprod, and search for most of the middle of the day beneath these small trees. There have been days where people I might run into have seen 6 or 7 deer, while I have seen 20 or 30. They don't spend a lot of time glassing, though. My best friend has an affinity for keeping his earnings in his wallet, instead of good equipment. He is unable to see most of the deer I find, with his Bushnell glasses--they simply won,t pick out the detail, or "look" into dark, shady places on sunny days. Either way, good binoculars have become very important to my hunting, particularily since I took up traditional muzzleloader hunting and thus have no scope. This is how it works for me, your experience may or may not vary. Chuck

I use a pair of Rubber armored Zeiss 8x30's. I cannot imaging a better binocular to carry and use. My .02
Doug M.

I prefer 7x42's or 8x42's Both achive that desirable exit pupil number of 5.

I used to think bigger was better until I bought a pair of Nikon 7x35's. Much easier to carry, great glass, no shaking, plenty powerful enough and affordable.

An old rule of thumb is you need to be able to see better than your adversary, so if the pronghorn can see minute movement at 1 mile, maybe you should too. Scanning technics are quite a bit more important than the optics anyway. I personally carry a compact 10x(long distance) and a compact 4x(dusk and scanning) when walking they fit in my pockets and I never worry about them. Nothing like a pair of bino's between the cheek and the stock! When in a static position I again have a high power set of binos and a wide angle pair.

Tom, I think pronghorn's vision is overrated. Most "authorities" say they don't have "binocular vision" at all... plain-old 1x like you and me. The difference, apparently, with their eyes is the ability to "resolve" detail.

Pronghorn are strange. I've had bucks walk right up to within 100 yards of me during the rut, pissing into the ground, stomping a making that odd "wheezing" sound they make! They're also too curious for their own good! The other day I was at "my range"... there's always a lot of antelope around. I was fine-tuning some 300 WSM loads, and up walks a very shootable buck to check out all the noise! He decided he didn't like the looks of me and trotted off to around 350 yards where he stopped. I got a good rest and dry-fired on him several times before he'd had enough!

BA

I am very impressed with the Leica 8 X 50
A bit more expensive than Swarovski but also a bit wider field of view and a bit more clarity.

I might be wrong, but I think Leica are releasing a 8-12x42 glass. Sounds like a good solution if the field of view in the 8x is on par with their fixed model, and to get a closer look - just switch to 12x, even if the magnification is a bit harder to hold steady.
I have not yet seen them tested by the birder at betterviewdesired.com

Maybe they will compete with Swarowski�s EL.
Anyway, it could be wise to hold on to one�s cash for a little while.

All the best

//Jens

[ 06-09-2002, 01:30: Message edited by: Jens ]

Several years ago I bought a pair of binocs which were better than I could afford. Since then, I have never regretted it..... well.... until I looked through my buddie's Swarovskies!!!

Anyhow, my 10x42s seem to work great for me as most of my hunting is done in very open country. Your best bet is to see what other guys are using and compair them in the field. That's where you'll see real differences you can't imagine in a store.

Oh, and if you need further justification for good binos: Always remember... you can't kill what you can't find!

You guys might want to check out the price on Leica (and maybe others) binoculars here:
Cambridge World Camera (click below)

web page

I was SHOCKED at the prices.

7x42 BN- $624
8x42 BN- $654
10X42 BN- $674

They have the black and green for the SAME price.

They have range finders as well.

LRF 800- $310

----------------------------

Buying my 8X42s tomorrow.

Take care!

[ 07-10-2002, 22:07: Message edited by: Kenati ]

HI

I prefer 10X42. I think it's easier to judge trophy size at longer range. I hunt in fairly open terrain most of the time.

/ JOHAN

[ 08-14-2002, 21:45: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

The fervent opining on 10 vs 8 adn 30 vs 42 got me laughing, and thinking. To me the quality of view is critically important. But even more important is size and weight since the value is around the neck, not in the truck. I carried the little 10by20s until the fogging drove me crazy. then got a good pair of Pentax waterproofs, and they are there when I need them. light and easy, clear and quick to focus. All the talk about power is good, but the true value is will it fit in the pack, will it fog up when I take it to view, and will it fit into the pocket so it doesnt swing around too much on a climb.

So how

Sheister and Ray, I am with you and the "it won't make much difference group. I got to use one of the new Leupold P-1's in 10X50 on my trip to Africa. It weighed 24 ounces. It was very sharp. My PH liked it so much it became part of his tip. I also just bought a 8X30 SLC Sworovski from a neighbor of Rays in Boise. Havent arrived yet but I am anxious. I have been using an old east german Zeiss 10X42 pair that with all it's faults still serves me well. I use a rifle barrel or a walking stick place between the barrels of the binos to steady them whether they be 8 power or 10. I use the binos in the trees looking for animal parts. These arent just for open country 1/2 mile viewing. You can often spot animals in the heavy cover with binos and both will powers will work.

Jamister,
If you put a 1-1/2" webbing strap on your binocs and sling them under your left arm pit and over your right shoulder, they wouldn't be flopping around and they won't strain your neck, not even the big ones...its the only way to go...Not my idea, got it from all the African PH's, tried it and stayed with it since.

Well I just bought the Swarovski 8.5 by 42 EL's. The 8.5 is better than my old 10 power Leupolds. The 10 by 42 Leupolds are 10 years old.And the difference is unreal.So much more clear,the power of 8.5 is great. I look across my quarter,1/2 mile and it is good for me.I can tell if its the good buck or the little guys.

I used a safari 8X30 pair from Zeiss, and loved them. I now bought 8X20 and 8,5X42 from swaro, and use them for separate use. For driven hunts, the 8X20 are fine. For everything else, the 8,5X42 come along. EVERYONE who has looked thru the thing want the same. They are truly awesome. A bit hefty yet...
olivier

CraigP my first good pair of binos were Swarovski 7X42. They are great. Then I got a pair of 8X30 Swarovski, wife used the 7X42. After she tried the 8X30 she had to have a pair. I do not think the 7X42 have been out of the house since. The 8X30 are light enough to wear ALL the time, walking, on horseback, or just driving around sight seeing. They give up very little in performance to bigger glasses, and you ALWAYS have them around your neck. Once 4 of us sat on the side of the mountain and "looked" through 3 different Swarovski binos, 10X40, 8X30, and 7X42. We all thought the 8X30's were the best for the "hunter". If the animals are a long way off there is always time for the spotting scope, If they are within shooting range you will have no problem making up your mind with the 8X30. I wear mine HIGH on my chest with the thin strap they came with, that way I can get them to my eyes with very little movement, and they do not bang against any of my other gear. I have the eyepiece covers on them and took the objective covers off. In the rain they stay clear and handy outside my rain gear, they are water proof.

You can't be far wrong with either 8x or 10x. I have a pair of 10x50 Bushnell that are made for folks with eyeglasses and I like 'em a lot. They're heavy but so what? I like the high power and eyepieces.

You guys got me geared up, I been using the same old binocs, 10x42 Leupolds, and old 8x30 Stieners for eons..they have served me well but its time to move on to bigger and better things so I am going to treat myself to either a set of:

Ziess Classic green rubber armoured 8x30 (really neat looking) $639.95

Leica 10x42 BN Hunting green, probably the best of the lot???? $719.95

Leica 10x42 BA, may be a bit smaller????? $674.95

Swaroski 10x40 or 8x40 classics traditional type armoured coated and they run about $600. Very neat old timey binocs with todays lenses.

It is bloody hard to decide and somewhat confusing
I am leaning towards the 8x30 green rubber armoured Ziess 8x30 as they are old classic, very small indeed and handy all around binocs...but what would I be giving up to the others???

Ray!
I understand you prefer reliable riflescopes,then i must tell you; the Zeiss 8x30 Classic is not guaranteed waterproof.If you prefer a 8x30 bino take a look at Swarovski 8x30SLC.

Myself i have a Swarovski 7x42(gum armed) classic from 1990.I have not had i single problem with it.And i have dropped it to the ground many times,still it works perfect.Since 1990 the optics have been improved a lot.Field of view is only 114m/1000m(342ft/1000yds/6.5degrees),10x40/ 324ft and that is the only drawback i can think of.Compared to Zeiss,Leica and other Swarovski models these classic models are "cheap" to buy,but not "cheap quality".