Copy and paste this link into a browser window
and you will see why people want wolves to
be hunted! Warning extremely graphic view of
a wolf doing his thing!

http://www.steensmountain.net/wolfattack.doc

???

What?

Wolves kill deer?

This is incredible news!!

Wait 'til Brent finds out!



..... You're kidding,.....right??

Where is the quick efficient killer that you and Brent were talking about?

Hey, pretty cool. Wish I could have been so lucky as to have been there.

But you know, that guy must be a professional basketball player if those tracks are 3.5" x 4.5"

If you look around you can find equally graphic, bloody, and, for you, disturbing video of lions, hyenas, bears, and other predators taking down their prey. As I mentioned before, there was recently a fairly gruesome bear/moose calf video for example.

And, if you look around, you will find photos and video of gut shot deer, elk, etc.

Predation is a messy business.

Brent

Brent, I don't think it's so much that many of us want to shoot ALL wolves. My position is just to add them to the species to be hunted, that's all.

I like seeing wolves too. Just like bears, cougars, etc., but we can hunt them.

I don't necessarily see wolves as the "bad guys" but I do think some need to grace my living room.

Doc,
I've got no problem with that. All in good time. But the badmouthing that goes on around here is going to do nothing but slow that process down.

Alligators were once on the ESA list and they are hunted now. Wolves can be there too. But I think it is going to take a big attitude adjustment for some people first.

Wolf pelts are indeed spectacular. http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-clothing-Gorge...oat-W0QQAdIdZ8822379

Doc, you're right on the money. We manage all huntable game species, so why not the wolves also? I say keep the numbers in balance and there will be enough wolves,moose,elk etc for everyone to hunt.

the chef

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Brent, I don't think it's so much that many of us want to shoot ALL wolves. My position is just to add them to the species to be hunted, that's all.

I like seeing wolves too. Just like bears, cougars, etc., but we can hunt them.

I don't necessarily see wolves as the "bad guys" but I do think some need to grace my living room.

I agree with you Doc.

Happemed 10 minutes from my house here in the U.P. of Michigan. We have definetley seen a huge increase in wolf number up her in the past 5 years. Im just hoping that they will start a season in the next 5 years or so.

Eat it while it is still alive! Real killers they are. Who cares about a wolf pelt, delist, predators outside of the park,gut shoot, and let them run off and die slowly, just like the deer and moose!

Don't most predators kill their prey? The wolf could have killed that doe in less that 30 seconds if it had grabbed it's throat. One characteristic
that wolves have is they are sadistic. The wolf
showed trotted off. If it ran across another deer,
the scene would be repeated again. Wolves need to
be delisted and hunted just like all the other predators.

To reiterate, they need to be controlled, they need to be hunted. Ask the deer hunters in california about cougars.

DGK

Hmmmmm, more data, will brent and iv dispute this information also? 8 calves per 100 cows~ hang your elk rifle up!

Wolves' presence reduces elk pregnancy rates, study finds
By MIKE STARK
Of The Gazette Staff

Wolves don't just eat elk, they change elk behavior and breeding, according to a new study.

Elk herds that are regularly targeted by wolf packs produced fewer pregnancies and calves than those where wolves aren't present, the study said.

Female elk tend to do more to get away from hungry wolves - and are usually more successful than bulls. But there's an indirect price.

"Most people assume that low numbers of calves were due to direct predation. The paper says in large part it's because of the effect on pregnancy rates," said Scott Creel, ecology professor at Montana State University, who led the study. The findings were published in today's edition of Science, a leading scientific journal.

The reintroduction of wolves to the Yellowstone ecosystem in 1995 and 1996 set off years of studies as scientists tried to understand how the return of a top-tier predator affects everything from moose and willows to beavers, insects and songbirds.

Much research has been done on the complex predator-prey relationship of wolves and elk. But until now, no one had looked at how wolves might affect pregnancy rates.

For their study, Creel and others examined elk scat from five wintering elk herds from 2002 to 2006. The herds were from Gallatin Canyon, Dome Mountain, Blacktail Plateau and Wall Creek in the Yellowstone ecosystem and Garnet Mountain, about 120 miles to the northwest.

In particular, researchers were looking for progesterone, a hormone that increases during pregnancy.

When wolves are present, elk tend to move around more, eat in different places and change how they cluster in groups. With those elk, researchers found lower rates of progesterone and, as expected, fewer calves born the following year.

"Elk in the absence of wolves go about their business in one way, they go about the task of feeding themselves, then you put wolves on the landscape and now they have two priorities to trade off one another," Creel said. "They have a behavioral response to wolves. They carry costs."

The ratio of calves to cows, considered an important gauge of an elk herd's overall health, was lower in areas where wolves were busier.

In the Gallatin Canyon herd, there were just eight calves per 100 cows.

Generally, 30 calves per 100 cows is considered a solid ratio to sustain a herd.

The results appear to mesh with an earlier study that looked at how elk calves died on Yellowstone's Northern Range.

The project was launched in 2003, after a drop in the number of elk counted during annual surveys in that area. Between 1994 and 2004, the elk count fell from 19,035 to 8,335. This winter's count, conducted on Dec. 30, found 6,738 elk.

Creel's study sheds light on other reasons fewer calves are documented in areas with wolves, he said.

"A lot of pieces of the puzzle clicked together here," Creel said.

The findings could help wildlife managers better understand and predict elk population by using elk-to-wolf ratios and using progesterone levels to estimate how many calves there will be the following year, Creel said.

Let's face it, some wolves need to be killed here in the US and soon. Call it management, control, whatever. But it is my opinion that it is our own self interests that drive us to this.

I want to hunt wolves because, quite frankly, they are competing with me for elk, moose, deer. If studies (quality studies) are demonstrating changes in breeding patterns, fawn and calf rates, etc., then that will certainly have an impact on those of us who save money for a hunt for elk or moose or deer.

I'm all for keeping wolves around to an extent. Sure, they've been around for thousands of years eating elk, or whatever, but humans have now populated much of their habitat, so it isn't the same now as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago. There's just not the same amount of land out there for all of them AND US.

It sad but true.

I don't think it is unreasonable to kill a third of the wolf population in the more populated areas, even half. These things are nothing but wild dogs and they breed and repopulate just fine.

Interesting...couple of observations.

Trailblazer, if you actually think this is a wolf, you're wrong. Those tracks are not big enough to be made from a wolf. Not even close. The critter in the photos isn't anywhere big enough, or of the correct proportions either. Around these parts we call 'em dogs.

From the manner by which the "dog like" animal is attacking this deer, it reminds me of a domestic dog. They have the gear but not the ability to quickly kill prey. Maybe this is one of those bullshit "wolf hybrids" everyone thinks is cool to own.

I've seen coyotes eat the hind end out of a bull elk that was still alive on the National Elk Refuge. What is your point? No shock factor here.

Some of the wolf propoganda posted on this forum is absolutely bullshit, based upon uneducated opinions and emotion. This cut and paste approach with a bunch of fuzzy pictures is a great example.

MG

It is a wolf. Search the net on the attack, confirmed as a wolf. Did you ever see the programs on discovery about the same manner of attack and kill. The program a few years back about wolf attacks on bison in canada. Torn to bits, flesh hanging, partially eaten, chased into a river, before the bison cow finally died.

I think the attack and kill took all day!

If the animal in the photos is the same one that left that track, it isn't a wolf. I've seen enough real wolf tracks to know the difference.

MG

Wolf Track

This is what a REAL wolf track should look like....not that border collie track in that BS word document.

MG

Madgoat, you must be an expert. You can tell all that from a picture? I am impressed.

Looks like a wolf doing what wolves have been doing for a long, long time. Not pretty but then much of nature isn't pretty.
You folks that attribute human qualities, ie sadism, etc, to wolves or other wild animals have spent too much time watching the Disney channel.
I am neutral in this argument but you folks trying to depict the wolf as a "noble" animal are wrong. Just as the ones whining because they have to actually get out of their SUV's to kill an elk are equally as wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Madgoat, you must be an expert. You can tell all that from a picture? I am impressed.

I'm sure you must see a lot of wolves in Delaware Redhawk....

MG

Why is it, because I currently live in Delaware and therefor I don't know anything? Is that the best you can come up with.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Looks like a wolf doing what wolves have been doing for a long, long time. Not pretty but then much of nature isn't pretty.
You folks that attribute human qualities, ie sadism, etc, to wolves or other wild animals have spent too much time watching the Disney channel..

I agree. I don't know enough about the facts to make an informed opinion on the merits of hunting them, but it seems pretty clear that there are both some folks and game populations in some places suffering as a result of their population expansion. But again, I stress I don't know enough about the facts to speak on anything but a personal, outside view. If it becomes legal to hunt them, I'd consider doing so as an aside, but probably wouldn't dedicate a hunt to them specifically. But I think it'd be a damned shame to go ahead and exterminate them, as some here have suggested. Frankly, I think their skills as hunters are very impressive, and in the few places I have hunted where they were present, liked the idea that they were about. And they hadn't wiped out the deer, or the moose populations, either.

But then again, I'm not a farmer losing dough to them, or a resident who has had a dog killed by them, or...

Kamo, I think there are more like you and I than there are not.
Speaking for myself only, I'm pretty turned off by the drooler's posts such as: "let's gut shoot 'em and let 'em suffer before they die." Highly ethical sprortsman that. Wonder how he treats the occassional elk he scratches down.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Why is it, because I currently live in Delaware and therefor I don't know anything? Is that the best you can come up with.

Well then it should be easy for you to tell that the track pictured in www.steensmountain.net/wolfattack.doc was made by someone's yellow lab, and not a wolf.

If you've looked at enough wolf tracks, you would agree right???

MG

Do animals actually have emotions that are attributed to humans? Empathy, sadness, lonliness, affection, hatred of another animal?
Do they have these feelings or is this something
Walt Disney fed us?

Well, to be honest, I went back and looked at the link again, and I think it is conceivable that the predator might be a large coyote. I simply typed in "grey wolf" and "coyote" on google images and the one in question doesn't look like it's legs are long enough to be a wolf, unless it's just a young one.

Maybe it's a big yote and the doe is smaller than we think.

I can't tell, but the more I look at it, I'm leaning towards yote.

It is a young wolf, or possibly summer or late fall.

And yes if I can hunt them I will gut shoot them, let them run off and die. Much the same as the wolf treats the big game animals it attacks. Let them suffer. If, "IF", big word, we will ever be able to hunt them to just "try" and control numbers, they will be predators here. No different than a coyote. I respect the coyote more, and no longer shoot them. But the wolf, fire away!!!!!

I don't see the Wolf as different than any other species that we manage these days...except, like the coyote...their numbers without govt. hunters from the air...are difficult to manage.

Any of the states could/can run a program to manage the Wolf numbers....and they should...and get the Fed. out of the picture.

The states SHOULD simply monitor the numbers, and allow Wolf hunting the same as they do cougar, bear etc.

This is not rocket science nor is the Wolf anything special......regular game management/hunting will be of great help in controlling their numbers appropiately.

Paul

If any of you on either side of the issue want to elevate your knowledge on wolves and what they will do and how to control them,get a copy of the book Alaska,s Wolf Man the story of Frank Glaser by Jim Rearden.This is a must read book I read my copy in just over 24 hours and it is not a small book.There is a lot of ignorance posted here by folks on both sides of this issue.If you want the truth get off your ass and read this book.w/regards

The Wolves of Alaska
A Fact-Based Saga by Jim Rearden

Softcover. 335 pages. 6"x9"x1". Published by Pictorial Histories Publishing Co.,Inc. Copyright 2002. ISBN: 1-57510-099-1

(From the back cover of the book) Alaska has announced that wolves are to be killed on the Tanana Flats, near Fairbanks, to allow a moose population to rebuild. A pretty Boston school teacher, representing an animal rights organization, arrives to "save" Alaska's wolves. As she becomes involved, her initial antagonistic relationship with a wolf biologist slowly changes as she learns about wolves and Alaska.

Jim Rearden is Alaska's most popular outdoors journalist. He holds two degrees in wildlife management and was Professor of Wildlife Management at the University of Alaska Fairbanks 1950-54. As a member of the Alaska Board of Game 1975-82 he helped develop the Tanana Flats wolf control program. He details with historical accuracy the controversy that irrupted when the 1975 program was announced.

Counter pointing the modern controversy, Rearden includes exciting segments of his best-selling Alaska's Wolf Man book, the story of Frank Glaser, Alaska's first full time government wolf hunter who hunted wolves in the Territory of Alaska 1915-1955.

Sounds like a good book. I'll check out Amazon for a copy. -TONY

I don't have much use for wolves.... To relocate them was insane!!! Wolves kill just to kill, and that's a fact!!! They will pull down a pregnant cow moose, pull the unborn calf out of her and eat what they want of it. Then go off after something else, leaveing the cow to die a painfull death!!

Personally, when it comes to wolves, i use the SSS method to deal with them..

DM

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
Personally, when it comes to wolves, i use the SSS method to deal with them..

DM

Oh really? Like often?

Another big mouth.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
I don't have much use for wolves.... To relocate them was insane!!! Wolves kill just to kill, and that's a fact!!! They will pull down a pregnant cow moose, pull the unborn calf out of her and eat what they want of it. Then go off after something else, leaveing the cow to die a painfull death!!

Personally, when it comes to wolves, i use the SSS method to deal with them..

DM

Admitting to a "Federal crime with a firearm" in what the law considers A PUBLIC PLACE.

Brilliant.

You realize the NRA's position is that you should be indicted, tried and should face severe penalties for committing a crime with a firearm.

I say again,.....BRILLIANT work!

IV

So the wolves kill Bambi?

Cats are cruel as well, when playing with and slowly killing a songbird or lizard they caught. We control feral cats in the woods, they have contrary to our real wild cats no rigth to be there. Wolves have always been around and I would like to see and hunt them over here.

Traffic is, by the way, a much larger game killer than predators, at least in most areas.

quote:

Oh really? Like often?

Another big mouth.

25 years of liveing in the bush with them will do that to you...

DM