After reading several issues of SCI, Grand Slam, and Eastman's, I noticed that 3/4 of the folks whose hunts are previewed either were on an outfitted hunt or were on a game farm.

What I think is funny, that these guys are all sitting around beating their chests about what asskicking hunters they are, but if you take away the outfitter and game farm all you get is a rich prick who can shoot a rifle 100 yards or so. Who should get the credit then on these hunts?? Shouldn't the game farm that raises the 450 point SCI bull get the credit for raising such a beautiful animal, or the outfitter who spent who knows how many hours in the bush watching that big whitetail buck??

Heck, even the Eastman's who promote "public land trophy hunts" can't even kill a big critter without paying a SHITLOAD for access on some private ranch. Give me a break!

Do you guys feel that the outfitter or game rancher should be in the book, or the dork who pulled the trigger??

MG

The dork that pulled the trigger. I'm not rich, but I can afford to hunt, and a lot of people think I'm a prick.

By the way, almost all hunts in Africa, for example are "outfitted" hunts, and in Texas most of the best hunting is on privately owned land.

I can't think of a real easy way to answer this question. Some "hunts" aren't a whole lot different from shooting livestock, some outfitted hunts are a hell of a lot of work, some private land hunts where no money changes hands at all are as easy as shooting mourning doves out of your bird feeder.

If some "rich prick" wants to get off shooting a farm-raised elk, that's his business. It doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I don't hang out with those dudes and I sure as hell won't be hunting with them any time soon.

RXM

There is no simple answer to this question. There are outfitted hunts of all different sizes and colors. Shooting a 450 B&C elk in a 100 acre fenced pasture is very different than a sheep hunt in alaska where a client must walk/climb for miles and miles, face the ever changing weather and spend many fruitless days in the camp before even spotting a legal size sheep. In my opinion the hunter in that case is worthy of all the credit.

Most exotic species all around the world are hunted on outfitted trips and if they are taken ethically, inside the bounds of local laws then hunter should be proud of his/her acheivement.

I agree with the previous people...

Some public land "free" hunts are real easy.

Up here in Maine hunting moose is a joke for the most part. Almost all moose are shot on or from a road. I have often said that if you were a moose in Maine or Canada and stayed 100 yards away from a road (loging or otherwise) and didn't get hit by a train you are guarnteed to die of old age!!! The only hard thing about a moose hunt is drawing the tag. If I ever draw I will do it with my bow just to put a little hunt in it. HOWEVER... try and get a good whitetail up here in northern Maine, you have to either be very lucky or realy know how to hunt.

Some paid or guided hunts are TOUGH !!!
Just because you pay big money don't mean that your hunt is easy ot guaranteed.

Not that I will ever do it but Bongo hunting costs about $1000 a day for at least 14 days and is anything but a sure thing.

I don't care to shoot animals on farms. However, I don't care if anyone else does. I just don't call it hunting. I have seen Bison "hunts" in CA where I could of walked up to the animal and killed it with a hammer. I have seen "plainsgame" hunts on ranches in Texas where Kudu are eating out of motorized feeders 80 yards from airconditioned blinds. If that is what you want to spend your money and time on who am I to stop you?

I think hunting is where you are matching your skills and intelegence against an animals instincts on the animals HOME TURF !!! Not a fenced in enclosure. Once the animal is fenced in it is killing not hunting no matter how "hard" you bull shit yourself in to thinking the "hunt" is. IMHO

I think it is too bad that the hunting industry has been forced to employ and promote such marketing tactics as B&C scores. Don't get me wrong, I would be just as proud as anyone if I killed a B&C scoring game animal, I just think that so much of hunting ads and articles are failing to focus on the positive values that hunting instills in youth, the time with family and friends etc. and nearly every article you read has to revolve around the "Trophy buck or bull"

I am sure many of you have heard a 10, 11 or 12 year old talk for weeks before their first deer season how they are not going to use their doe tag, that they are going to wait for a big buck and then seen the pride on their face when he or she takes 3 gut shots to bring down that first doe they see before 8 Am on opening day. So much for the best laid plans......

IV

quote:

Don't get me wrong, I would be just as proud as anyone if I killed a B&C scoring game animal, I just think that so much of hunting ads and articles are failing to focus on the positive values that hunting instills in youth, the time with family and friends etc. and nearly every article you read has to revolve around the "Trophy buck or bull"

Well said.

Madgoat, sounds like you have some sort of inferiority complex about people who earn a decent wage and choose to spend some of those hard earned dollars on their passion. The generalization of all hunters who go on an outfitted hunts as being rich pricks and dorks is pure bullshit. Same as saying that all hunters that hunt on their own are leather lunged ancestors of Daniel Boone and Natty Bumpo. Also BS. I've seen slobs that fall into both catagories as have I seen terrific hunters who fall into both. Most hunters I know who go on outfitted hunts on occasion also hunt on their own. I've been on outfitted hunts where I busted my ass and came home empty handed but happy and I've hunted on my own where things worked out too easy and I was somewhat let down even if I filled my tag. It's a big wide world of opportunity out there. You should do what you enjoy and what falls within your budget and stop worrying so much about what someone else may enjoy or can afford.

Jeff

Why's it that rich guys are pricks when they can afford a pricy hunt, but guys that can't are usually hard working salt-of-the-earth kind of people?

Genuinely curious.

I agree that there are no simple, universal answers to this issue.

First of all, I'm going to agree with Ski that trophy hunting in and of itself is greatly overrated compared to hunting with your family and because you simply ENJOY hunting. That's where it's really at for me -- I hunt for the experience and enjoyment of it first, foremost, and always. If hunting becomes some paper-chase, then for me it'll be time to quit.

I'm also going to agree with Madgoat that some trophy hunters are rich, selfish, spoiled characters who only want to attain yet another SCI "Level of Achievement" award, and some of them will lie, cheat, buy, bribe, break laws, and even steal to make that happen. I was in a camp one time with one of these characters, and this wimp whined for days over the fact that an animal he took on that hunt was about a half-inch short of Boone & Crocket. The sad part was, the animal he took was a very, very fine trophy just the same and furnished wonderful meat that we all enjoyed, and the hunt we were on was a fabulous experience no matter what. But this clown kept on whining, and I finally told him that I thought he was nothing but a spoiled brat who didn't deserve the animal he took, and that is was time for him to grow up and shut his mouth. This was as close as I've ever been to really wanting to kick the dogcrap out of someone in a hunting camp, and needless to say, he didn't speak to me for the balance of the trip, nor I him! I doubt he's changed, but man, I still get enraged just thinking about his pi$$-poor attitude to this day. Money doesn't buy respect and credibility -- it never has, and it never will........

I've been on both sides of the coin. I've outfitted my own mule deer, blacktail deer, elk, and pronghorn hunts for most of my adult life, and I've also been on scores of guided hunts in a number of states and foreign countries.

Many of the guided trips have been extremely tough, especially for sheep, grizzly, blackbear, goats, moose, and elk, and on some of these hunt I've worked harder than the guide has. And sometimes I didn't score either, and without bitching I rightfully paid the bill for the hunt anyaway -- which can be a bitter pill, believe me.

Many of the African safaris haven't been easy, either, and by the time you've spent 12-14 hours a day -- every day -- for three solid weeks glassing, hiking, and bouncing around trackless deep-bush in a Landcruiser, sleeping in blinds and spike camps on occassion, you're ready for a break........

Hunting is what you make it, no matter what.

AD

What's so difficult to understand? - there are too damn many people and less-and-less natural habitat for wildlife. This means the "wild" animals are getting restricted more-and-more to private land, game farms, or off-limits federal preserves.

What's the future of hunting in North America? - just look at Europe. Hunting is becoming a rich man's sport - if you want to call it a sport. Thankfully, some states have protected difficult-to-draw hunts that remain open to the average citizen, although the waiting periods are long.

I do think the guy who hires an outfitter to pack 30 miles into the wilderness to harvest the bull or sheep of his dreams deserves credit for his achievements. He obviously put forth some form of effort, physical hardship, and made it through a tough hunt.

On the other hand...
Many of these so called "trophy hunters" are just out to satisfy their ego. They'll pay whatever it takes to kill that trophy animal, whether it is running behind a tall fence or even tied up to a tree. They have no regard for laws, regulations, or hunter ethics. It is these types of hunters, who then brag about their achievements in magazines like SCI who make all hunters look bad. Then SCI will gives them different levels of "achievement". What the heck??
I'm sorry if I have offended some of you on this forum...but I believe that some of you here fit into this catergory and thus become so offended. You don't hunt because you enjoy the chase, spending time in the woods, or the bounty of a successful hunt...you just like to kill things with large racks by whatever means possible. You're the reason why game farms are everywhere and Texas looks like a freaking zoo.
Then some of you don't give a shit if a guy does hunt on a game farm. You may not call it hunting, but that portion of the public that doens't hunt or fish does. They lump these buttheads in with the rest of us, and give all hunters black eyes.

I guess I am lucky, having spent all my life living and hunting in a state where a guy can still pursue "wild" game animals, that we don't have to buy from someone.

MG

Personally what I'd love to see and it would be tough to do and tough to police (if one cared to). But I'd love to see the bokk have different category's.

unguided private land
unguided public

guided private
guided public

high fenced

Just a thought

MD

By the way, the sheep in my profile pic was taken on a private high fenced ranch in Texas, a small spread of 11,000 acres. There were four of us hunting and the owner allows experienced hunters to stalk. I glassed the herd from the hills in the background about 1/2 mile away and used a river bed that runs to the right of the picture to get to about 110 yards for the shot on the last morning of a four day hunt. Now it's not the same as sheep hunting in Alaska or the Rockies, but I can't quite spring the time, and don't want to spend the money, required to hunt there. Never the less, I'm a happy butthead with my sheep.

quote:

What I think is funny, that these guys are all sitting around beating their chests about what asskicking hunters they are, but if you take away the outfitter and game farm all you get is a rich prick who can shoot a rifle 100 yards or so. Who should get the credit then on these hunts?? Shouldn't the game farm that raises the 450 point SCI bull get the credit for raising such a beautiful animal, or the outfitter who spent who knows how many hours in the bush watching that big whitetail buck??

Heck, even the Eastman's who promote "public land trophy hunts" can't even kill a big critter without paying a SHITLOAD for access on some private ranch. Give me a break!

Do you guys feel that the outfitter or game rancher should be in the book, or the dork who pulled the trigger??
MG

A sour grapes post if I have ever seen one. If you can't afford to go and do this stuff, don't act like a clueless dork and criticize those that can. Most of us who got to the point where we can do this stuff have different priorities than the average bear. We save our money to spend on what is important to us. In my case, that happens to be hunting trips to faraway places, not a new pick-em-up truck or a fancy house in the best neighborhood.

I am not a rich guy, but I have been on more than a few of these guided hunts. I like to go. I would wager that hunting mountain goats in BC or Dall Sheep in Alaska is more physically demanding than poking deer in whatever state you wish after spotting them from your four-wheel-drive. I've been to Wyoming, and I love your high country, especially the Bridger-Teton Wilderness. After a ten-day horseback elk hunt there a couple of years ago, I felt like I had been rode hard and put away wet too darned many times. I worked like hell for an elk, but didn't get one that trip. Going on an outfitted hunt is not a guarantee that you will get one.

Try it sometime when you can afford it.

All I'm saying, is that (even while watching these hunting shows on TV) these hunter dudes are taking all the credit, for something they had little participation in. Tell me pat, do you have the experience to pack yourself in for a week on horseback and kill a sheep in the back country? You get these outfitters who scout their asses off, pack non horse savy folks and all their crap into the wilderness, puts up with their whining for a week, then the client gets to the moment of truth and actually does something for a couple of seconds and the hunter gets all the glory. Could the guy who then "gets his name in the book" have actually done something like this on his own? Maybe, for most flatlanders who decide that they want to be a real hunter one week out of the year...not a chance. It just seems that most folks are so self centered in their desire to have the most "awards" or entries in the book they have missed the true meaning of hunting.

Why does greed play such a large role in the hunting society? Why do folks put such a "worthy" or not status on wildlife. If I hear one more "I would have shot him but his G2's were a little bit short and his main beams weren't long enough...blah, blah, blah" it just makes me sick. Folks should be thankful for the opportunity, and take the $$ out of hunting.

IMO, it is what is ruining the sport.

MG

how's about we just have a book the way it is set up BUT without the shooters names?

MD

How bout we just burn the record books. I hunt 60+ days a year, am a trophy hunter and rarely shoot an animal, I can't afford any guided hunts. I keep my trophies in my gun/reloading room and very few people even know I have them. It's about hunting and personal achievement for me. Nothing to brag about and I don't put my heads in any record book. Record books just spoil it and if I found myself hunting for recognition of what I was lucky enough to kill, then it's time for me to find some other passtime.

woops, double posted

As a former outfitter and guide I would like to state that:

An asshole is an asshole.
Money doesn't change a thing. Their ability to pack in 30 miles with a 60 pound pack or they own their own livestock or hire someone else to do the packing doesn't change a thing. The fact that they never hire someone to help them find their game or pack it out doesn't change a thing either.

Some of the nicest people I ever met were folks I guided. I also had a few jerks of the first caliber, but not many. And some of the biggest jerks were not the guys with the best rifle or goodies that money could buy, so don't try to pull that "all the rich guys are assholes" crap on me. I can only recall one client with "money" who was totally intolerable, I sent him home after 3 days with a refund on a 10 day trip, the "poor" jerks go the same deal, like I said, an asshole is an asshole.

I have also met some gold-plated morons who like to brag that they've never hired a guide and anyone who does is a (fill in whatever insulting term you feel fits). My impression of some of these people is that they were whinny asses that didn't make much money because they were, (Not in any particular order):
To lazy to work hard in school and get a good job.
Pissed of at the world because of some notion that "the world somehow owes them a living" or whatever.
Miss-managed their financial resorces so that they piss away what they do make on booze, gambling, or just buying crap to make themselves feel better.
Completely ignorant about what a guided trip actually involves from both the client and guide side of the equation.

Horrible things do go on in Texas, and just about anywhere else by the way where some asshole is willing to lie, cheat and bribe their way into whatever it is that they think is worth sacrificing their morals, reputation and personal integrety to possess. This is life. This is the way the world is, unfortunately. So grow up.

I don't know if I am a "real hunter" or just one of Montana's a$$holes. Others may be the judge of that. Montana, there are a$$holes on both sides of the guide/client thingy. I have hunted with a whole bunch of guides and outfitters that I would sit around a campfire with anytime. Of all the guides I have been with, I only considered two of them to be jerks I would never hunt with again. Most guides are quality people who do the job because they love it. Some are in it for the money, but I'm not sure I ever met one of those.

I like to go hunting. I spend every minute I am able to spend in the woods here at home, scouting before hunting season, hunting during the season, and doing inventory after the season. I also go on several guided hunting trips each year. Fortunately, the Good Lord has seen fit to let me make enough money to afford to do it, and also to give me a wife who lets me do it.

At one time, I might have gone out west into unfamilar country and tried to do an elk hunt on my own without the services of an expert guide and an outfitter, but not anymore. I am pushing medicare age with a D-9 Cat, and just can't do all of those things I might have been able to do way back then. Should I give it up and not go because someone thinks I might not be a "real hunter" if I do it this way? Not on your life, friends. I'm having way too much fun to care what anyone else thinks.

I leave this coming Wednesday for a grizzly hunt in British Columbia. First off, I wouldn't be allowed to do it on myself without a guide in BC. That is the law. I'm going. If I get a griz, I will be proud of it and will have thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I will give credit to the guide for his contributions when I write the story, just as I always do. Some outdoor writers don't. That is their problem. Will the fact that a guide spotted the grizzly first make the trip less enjoyable? Not in the least.

If you think I should throw out all my accumulated guns and trophies, and perhaps get rid of my hunting equipment, don't hold your breath. It is going to be a few more years yet. At least I hope so, God willing.

Patrkyhntr,

I was speaking from my point of view and just refering to my experience with clients.

If you want to talk outfitters and guides I could give you examples of assholes that would make the worst client seem tame. And just as with clients I could give you examples of the nicest, most honest people you could ever meet. That is the truth of the human condition, people span the range of good and evil in every activity you can think of.

Point taken, Montana. I took no offense to your post and was only posting from one client's point of view. I intended no offense toward you. Perhaps we might hunt together sometime.

You should read Big Buck Magazine if the one's mentioned make you shake your head. Almost all the hawgs in that magazine are father son type weekend hunts or taken in the back 10. most of the bucks are taken in the western provinces but a few from western and mid southern US.

Pretty humble strories and lots of pics of real trophies.

Well I've never seen Big Buck Magazine but I'll take your word for its content and I'm happy that it exists. The positive does exist for those who want to find it.

Madgoat,
My grandmother used to say that if you look in black holes all the time you're bound to find a few snakes.

Too many hunters worry about getting credit, medals, and record book recognition. I do not care to hunt with people that are that pre-occupied with their own importance.

I guess that explains why I like to hunt alone, don't join industry organizations, and prefer not to spend much time at gun shows listening to fringe-idiots expound on their screwed up politics.

Luckily there are still guys like me who just enjoy the hunt. I like being around those hunters, but we are certainly a minority.

I have no issues going on guided hunts. That is my reward for 35 years of hard work.

Being rich isn't about the number of zeros in your bank account, it is about the life you lead. I know a number of men with large bank accounts, who are certainly poor human beings. We all know these types. What is usually most impressive about these assholes is how they generally seem to have everything except an endless fuel for their insatiable egos, and they invariably crash and burn in spectacular fashion. I love watching that part.

If the animal is raised by someone, and not wild, and then a "guide" takes the "hunter" straight to where they know the animal will be...

It's not hunting, it's harvesting.

If the animal is wild, and the guide has worked his ass off to find the animal for somebody else to shoot, then he should get the credit for the "hunt". All the client should get credit for is making a decent shot to kill the animal.

All of you have valid points. As a guide, I've found that there are all kinds of "hunters". Some guys want to be spoon fed and babied and other like it where the rougher the hunt the more they enjoy it. I prefer the later and have little patience for the former. I dont run a resort, I guide hunts. Sometimes you are going to have to get wet, cold, hot etc.
I believe in good food and comfortable lodging but I'm not there to wet nurse some guy that expects every animal he see's to be a trophy.
Sometimes I do guide on ranches with high fences but these are normally 5000+ acres and the deer or exotics on them are everybit as wild as anywhere else.
On the other hand, I know some very big name ranches that will turn an animal out of a trailer shortly before the hunter arrives. I'm not naming names but I promise, if you've been around hunting long you've heard of them. Thats the underside of the business. The up side is the guy that wants to hunt, will listen to his guide and brings his kid along with him.
I've guided hunters from all walks of life, the common man and the very rich. There have been A-holes on both ends of the spectrum, it's not just the rich guys. Some of the rich guys are the ones that like to rough it. I say don't generalize and hate on guys that can afford to go on big hunts. If you could afford it, you would do the same thing.

quote:

You should read Big Buck Magazine if the one's mentioned make you shake your head. Almost all the hawgs in that magazine are father son type weekend hunts or taken in the back 10. most of the bucks are taken in the western provinces but a few from western and mid southern US.

Pretty humble strories and lots of pics of real trophies.

This is a good magazine. I used to live across the street from the Eastman guru, talk about a a self centered individual! I had a copy of the Big Buck mag and it had a number to call for a subscription. I called it on a saturday to get signed up, expecting a voice mail or some automated connection, well, the owner, editor, answerd the phone, from his home, took my order and was the most polite, cordial, fellow that I have ever met, that is involved in the hunting business. I subscribed and still do. When I told him I was from Wyoming he asked me about Eastmans, and I told him , "I live across the street from this guy, in 9 years he has never once even said hello" in a 5 minute phone conversation you have said more than this guy has said in 9 years" "your not in the same category" "your magazine is a cut above". He laughed and thanked me eh!

Wow! Did this little thread start an unraveling of the coat. Gentlemen, all good points. I have been blessed with a great place to live where wildlife is abundunt and hunting opportunity is almost boundless. If I want to do my own hunt I can and I can hire a guide. There is public land and very tightly controlled private access to public land, private land open to public hunting and private land closed except to a select few. Is this a great country, or what? I wish, naively though it may be, that I could take a pack, rifle and my faithful native right hand man and hunt across African on my own. Ain't never going to happen again. As I tell my students in Hunter Education, this is not a game and no one is keeping score except yourself. Ethics are determined by the individual and contiually shaped by peer pressure of society AKA obsession with "book" animals. AND much of this is market driven. It wasn't until about 15+ years ago that every sumbuck with a horse trailer in Montana decided to become and outfitter. As an urban country all you have to do is watch the Outdoor Life channel and realize there is a very real need and a real service provided by outfitters. When I was a kid all the dads took us hunting in the family sedan, not the 4WD diesel humdinger with the Polaris/Honda four wheeler in the back. Ranchers here in Montana have quickly come to realize that rich pricks will pay a lot to kill most anything with fur on it, from prairie dogs to elk. AND it pays better than cows or sheep. Outfitted or not, record book or not, bow hunter or rifle, the individual will drive this ultimate choo choo. The source of the light at the end of the tracks will ultimately be determined by the majority. I think I'll go shoot some something.

quote:

Ranchers here in Montana have quickly come to realize that rich pricks will pay a lot to kill most anything with fur on it, from prairie dogs to elk

Thank God for rich pricks. All the poor pricks I know would like to be rich. They are just too damn lazy or too fricking dumb to do anything about their situation in life. Rich pricks make the world go round. Ever work for a poor prick?

Agreed, a prick is a prick. At least a rich one can give you a job and enhance the local economy.

What about those people (rich or not) who don't live where the game is? Like myself, for example. If I wanted to hunt elk, it would be a much better hunt and use of my time to hire a guide/outfitter. There's no way I could expect to just drive into the mountains and know where to go, etc. Sure, some of the credit should go to the guide. On a guided hunt, I think of it as a team effort.

I'm not a book hunter - anything that I take home with me is a personal trophy, whether it's a squirrel, deer, etc. Same with fishing. I'm just as happy with a basket of crappies as with some huge walleye, and the crappies even taste better.

For the record books, I'd be in favor of noting the guide along with the hunter:
score; hunter name; guided by

Sometimes I like to cook, sometimes I like to go out to eat. I enjoy myself either way. I'm sure there are people out there who are better cooks than I am and I know there are people who go to fancy resturants more than I do. Instead of holding it against them I prefer to try and become a better cook and work to be able to go out.

Jeff