Does anyone have any FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE w/ Lone Wolf Stocks. There are a mass of Fiberglass stocks made today. I was noticing that Lone Wolf stocks are one of the lightest, and are still less money than Brown and some of the others. I sure would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

Take a look at my site below, it has a photo of a Lone Wolf thumbhole on a single shot benchrest action in 6mm BR. It's the flame paint job on the rifles page. Also, I installed one of the Lone Wolf lightweights on a M700 30-06 last year. If you want more info on the light weight, go to www.24hourcampfire.com, Forums, Big Game Room, and ask AFP about the stock. I assembled the rifle for him last year.

Overall, the Lone Wolf stocks are good quality, but you need to install pillars and do a good bedding job. Like any other composite stock, it took a bedding job and a set of pillars and a fair amount of work to get the light weight right. McMillans are easier on the novice and require less work.

You will find that even with the kevlar and carbon fiber, the lightweight stocks are somewhat flexible, especially in the forend.

------------------
Currently in Exile on the Beautiful Olympic Peninsula of Washington State.

My Warden sometimes allows me to respond to email. NEW Address is rifles@earthlink.net

***********Jail Flash*******
Web site under construction: http://home.earthlink.net/~rifles/

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 01-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 01-31-2002).]

I've used lightweights on two rifles a Sako 75 in 270 and a left handed Mod 70 in 338 last year. I had them pillar bed both actions as I was going to have them do the paint as well.

Both shoot under a half inch with factory ammo. The stocks are quite nice and technically better than the other stocks mentioned. I will use them again for lightweight guns.

Frank N has had some bad experience with them with regard to their bedding and might be able to add to this.

Beartrack,

I ordered a stock from Lonewolf , the company in Columbia Falls, MT back in 1998 for a Sako. It was supposed to be a Weatherby Mk5 clone and a delivery date was set several weeks ahead. They were made well aware that I needed this stock for an RSA hunt to commence in four months.

Months passed and it was supposed to be done on a certain date.Not done, paint still wet. So another week later I called and GOT DIRECTIONS TO THEIR FACTORY (a garage adjacent to their home) with the agreement I would pick up the stock in a few days. So they are well aware I am on the way! I drive several hours to the factory and my stock is not yet completed, though they were aware I was to drive out and pick it up!

A few weeks later it arrives via UPS. The stock is so big and clubby that I can't believe it! Its huge, not at all similar dimensions to the stock I was shown in their catalog OR described by the owner. Their special bedding job consists of four , 1/4" bolt washers, the cheap kind you buy at a Ranch supply store for a buck a pound, glued in at top and bottom of the stock at the tang and forward action screw!!!!!

To say that this didn't shoot well is an understatement. After several calls and having my Smith fool with it, I gave up and the stock is sitting in my garage. That particular stock was junk. An education to stick with Brown, McMillan, etc for my glass stocks.

NOW........LoneWolf may have changed hands or vastly improved in four years but the folks I dealt with were crooks.

FN

[This message has been edited by Frank Nowakowski (edited 01-31-2002).]

Frank, yikes what I nightmare! Your story makes me especially angry as I think back on some of the burns I've had to suffer......

That stock needs a one-way ticket back to the the man who created it, and he needs to provide you with a refund.

Allen

Ouch! Sounds like you got stung pretty hard. Did the gent in the "garage" go by the name of Bob?

JR,

I do not remember who the guy was. I have another buddy who received a few of their early stocks 1998-2000 era and they are junk. What they are producing now I have no idea?

FN

I think Bob and his wife have worked very hard over the years to build their business. I've had four or five Lone Wolf stocks over the years. I got my first one in about 1996---when they were still making stocks in Bob Culbertsen's condominium in San Diego. They moved to Montana 'bout '97, if I recall.

Bob is extremely temperamental---easy to piss off. As an example: I once ordered a stock for a small Sako. He did not have one in stock. I needed it right away so told him not to worry, "I'll just pick one up from Brown since I need it right now." I meant no offense. To that point, we had spoken dozens of times over the years. I had put alot of money in his pocket and referred some business his way. After that comment, he basically refused to sell me anymore product from that day forward.

At the time I had an order pending for some of his bedding compound. I called about it several times. He simply refused to send it. All of this because I had the temerity to mention even the possibility of buying someone else's stock when he did not have in stock what I needed at the moment. I had no idea he was so insecure. I learned.

Lone Wolf's Summit stock is a decent product. It weighs about 13-15 oz. without pad, but in my opinion it is not rugged/stiff enough. What I mean is this: they use a monocoque ("stressed skin") design and which involves gluing together four or five pre-fabricated component parts which have an outer and inner shell, but little or no fill material between the outer stock shell and inner wall (i.e., no epoxy fill and no foam fill---just air between the shells). The problem is that they apparently do not post-cure the epoxy matrix with high enough heat or any heat at all. (Or else they do not use an adequately high temp epoxy matrix.) The result is if you
put the Summit stock in the back window of your car (or in your oven at say 120-130 degrees) it will go very soft. Because it is essentially hollow, with little or no inert material between the outer stock shell and inner wall to resist the effect of the heat softened epoxy, the stock becomes very pliable and loses too much of its rigidity---more so than say, Brown's light weight stock. So, the stock has a rather unrestricted opportunity to warp and move under heat. I don't think this problem is as prevalent on their heavier stocks because they do use some inert fill material (foam, whatever). Also, the dimensions of their stocks seem a little more bulky than others. Don't seem to have the fine lines of say Brown, of Rimrock.

A good bedding job, especially for the length of the action area and in the barrel channel seems to help with the heat warpage problem, but the lightness thing is taken to the point of compromising the final product somewhat, at least in the Summit model (in my opinion).

Some of the accuracy crowd swear by Lone Wolf's carbon fiber bedding system. Other's say it is a gimmick.

Bottom line: I would buy again if I really, really needed the weight savings. But then again, I would modify the stock with some carbon fiber---which would cancel out some of the weight savings. And I would be darn sure not to piss off Bob!!

My .02 worth.

Jordan

Yeah, it's Bob... I talked to him several times on the phone. To say he was rude and un-helpful would be an understatement. His wife was quite nice and obviously works hard to overcome her husband's pathetic personal skills. After my phone experiences and testimonies like Frank's I'm looking in another direction.

BA

I have to say, THE number one thing that annoyed me with Lone Wolf was allowing me to drive the four hours to their shop KNOWING that the stock wasn't finished. I called and had to ask directions. They KNEW I was coming.
HS Precision, Brown, Mc Millan, etc are so much easier to deal with.

FN

Wow: what a lot of Bob bashing and from the sounds of it, just a little stretching of the real story. I have known Bob and his wife Jill for many years and I have been to the "little garage" where they manufacture their products. I would hesistate to call a new 80x60x20 building a "little" garage but it is pretty big here in our part of MOntana. It is a nice, roomy, modern facility with clean air, bright lights, and up to date equipment including lathes and milling machines. Bob stays current with composite technology and incorporates new techniques and materials into his product whenever they prove to be better.

As far as pillars go, I know for a fact that all of the pillars used in Lone Wolf Stocks are made on a lathe to insure consistency. To suggest that Bob would use washers is silly, and even if he did they would be, at least, Stainless Steel, not from the farm store.

It does not take much smarts to figure out that if you bed any composite stock with exactly the same material that the stock itself is made of it will result in a more secure bond. Why would you make a stock with epoxy and carbon fiber and then bed it with fiberglass? Why revert to 1960's technology that may or may not stick and that will likely expand at a different rate?

Bob and Jill build each stock for a particular rifle. There are no "off the shelf" stocks to be found there. After the order is taken and the deposit received the stock is built. Orders are processed in the same order that they are received so it may take time to receive your stock. It truly is custom built. Because of this personalized service you may have to wait several months to receive your stock. All customers are made aware of this at the time the order is placed. Telephone threats and showing up at the door to personally harass Bob will not make the process any faster. If you do not choose to wait there are may other manufacturers out there. But please remember, Bob's stocks are made in the USA from US made materials. I suggest that you check where some of the alternatives are made, you may be shocked.

Bob may be difficult at times but I would prefer to have my custom built stock made by someone that cares about his work more than how you like him on the telephone.

I have owned and used many Lone Wolf stocks and I have never had a problem with any of them in years of target and varmint shooting. I will stick with Lone Wolf until someone can show me something that is superior.

Dear Wolverine:

Are you affiliated with Wolverine Painting---the entity which used to send out stock painting advertizing material in Lone Wolf's mailing literature? If so, then I think, in the interest of full disclosure, you should reveal any financial or business arrangements you have with Lone Wolf so that we use it to determine your credibility. Let me emphasize: I am not saying Bob Culbretsen is not a decent, hard-working man who deserves commendation for creating what is probably a very successful small business in a difficult market. I do believe, however, that his business would be much more successful if his personal persona were more pleasing. He lost me as a long-time customer because I committed the sin of mentioning that because I needed a stock right away, I would have to buy from Brown Precision this time. On that basis, he refused even to sell me the bedding compound I have on order (BTW: I very much liked his resin matrix, whatever it was). I agree that his wife is a very nice person. I stand by my criticisms regarding the Summit stock taking lightness a bit too far without adequate high temp post cure, or use of better cloth (I suggest more S glass or more carbon fiber).

Regarding your reference to fiberglass bedding in an epoxy stock (or vise versa) and the comment about using the same matrix as the material the stock is constructed with, I am not sure which post you were referring to or whether you assumed that a ?Brown stock is constructed of polyester resins. I do not believe they are. IN any event, with one exception, the argument about using a bedding compound which "came from the same batch" of material as the stock was constructed with (one of Bob's favorite advertizing claimss) is mostly hokum.
It is true that epoxy and polyester resins are incompatible, but any epoxy bedding job into an already cured epoxy structure (such as a cured, completed stock) will not form any sort of extra special molecular or chemical bond merely because it is from the "same batch" of material. So long as one is not mixing polyester and epoxy resins, there is no inherent incompatability and nothing to be gained (unless we are perhaps talking a certified aircraft structure) from using only a matrix of the same brand or batch of epoxy as that from which the stock itself was constructed.

I have found that the best source of "state of the art" information regarding epoxys, resins, structural cloths (carbon fiber, glass, etc.) is from the aircraft supply and industrial supply industries and not the gun stock building industry.

Sincerely,

Jordan

Dear Jordan: Yes indeed, I am one and the same person who used to paint stocks. Not only for Lone Wolf but for other manufacturers, gunsmiths, and fellow shooters. No, I do not have any arrangements either financial, business, or otherwise with Bob or Jill Culbertson or Lone Wolf AG, we are friends and have been for years as I stated very plainly in my last post. When I painted I charged them the same price that I would charge you or anyone else. I will state that any business dealings that I had with Lone Wolf were very satisfactory, they always paid their bills on time and never quibbled about the price. I stopped painting stocks a couple of years ago mainly because of the high proportion of difficult customers among the hunting population. Because I have dealt with Bob both professionally and personally I consider myself qualified to comment on this subject. I have personally spent enough time there to know what goes on.

I have no ax to grind with you or anyone else on this board, and I am neither condoning nor condeming the personality or business practices of Bob Culbertson. I just think that all of the facts should be presented fairly and truthfully. My opinion is that Bob and Jill build a superior product because he is an artist and gives a damn about his work. Because he refuses to sacrifice quality for speed, he is one of the best in his field. There are no employees for that very reason. He is usually backlogged 4-6 months and everyone is informed of that up front when they place their order. Orders are done in the order that they are received. No exceptions, not even for me.

I do not know why he did not send you your epoxy, I cannot speak for Bob. Perhaps you could send him an email or give him a call, I know for a fact that he is not usually the ill-mannered oaf portrayed elsewhere in this thread.

They have a web site now:
www.lonewolfriflestocks.com
perhaps you could leave him a message there.

If you do not like Bob, then do not do business with him, there are lots of other manufacturers out there. I know that Bob would suggest Lee Six Enterprises because of their quality. Just buy one that is made in the USA. Please.

[This message has been edited by Mrwolverine (edited 02-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mrwolverine (edited 02-08-2002).]

Mrwolverine,

You are basically calling me a liar, which I do not appreciate.

If you read my first post I give whoever runs Lone Wolf the absolute benefit of the doubt. I mention that my purchase was in 1998, and that their quality may have changed. No bashing there.

I ordered a stock, months later I called and we set up a date and time to pick it up. I drove from south of Great Falls to Columbia Falls. Expressly to pick up that stock. To arrive four hours later, to find out that it wasn't completed as promised was to say the least frustrating.

As far as the bedding of that stock. I just looked at it, took an X-acto knife and popped off one of the 1/4" WASHERS from my "pillar bedding". Sure as hell looks like a cheap , galvanized 1/4" washer to me.

I didn't start this thread, and could care less about Lone Wolf. I buy my stocks from other sources. I had hoped to get good service and a good product from a Montana based Company as I like to keep my money in State if possible. Too bad Bob didn't have the common courtesy to save me a trip to Columbia Falls by a mere phone call. Too bad he wasn't even just the slightest bit apologetic when I was told it wasn't ready yet. But worst of all the stock was not as described when finally received a few weeks later.

Frank Nowakowski

Mrwolverine,

Is that it?? NO reply??

Frank N.

Frank, it's going to be pretty hard for any body to reply to that!
I would be interested in MR Wolverine telling us about these supposedly foreign made stocks that we've been buying for USA made.
Hey, if it's the truth he has no fear of retribution.

Frank, you are a friend who I trust completely, and I'll stand by your integtrity anywhere, and at any time.

AD

Dear Mr. Wolverine, Frank and others:

Mr. Wolverine:

Thank you for your response. Let me emphasize: I am not saying that merely because you have (or had) a business or personal relationship (painting stocks) that you are not a credible person on any of the issues under discussion. In fact, I appreciate your insight into how hard Bob and Jill work and the other aspects of their business you touched upon. I give them a great deal of credit for making their business profitable and especially making more choices available to we shooters. There is much I do like about their product. I think they have carved out a nitch and deserve credit for that which they do well. I maintain my original opinion about Bob's temperment. On the other hand (and this is also in recognition of your comment about how temperamental shooters are) it must be hell sometimes trying to please the shooting crowd. I have said before that shooters are frequently a very temperamental, demanding, bitchy bunch of consumers, some of whom can be damn near impossible to please.

Frank:

I think you are being harsh on Mr. Wolverine. I did not read his post as implying in any way that you had lied or anything of the sort. The fact that you had a bad experience with Culbretsen (just as I did, albeit, among many good experiences) does not establish that he is a universally bad person or that his service or product is universally bad. Those of us in the business of providing services always have clients who are not completely satisfied. Let us admit also that we shooters can be a damn difficult group to please. (And please note: I am not defending Culbertsen as to your incident---but perhaps he has a side to tell as well.

Sincerely,

Jordan

Jordan,

I can appreciate your trying to mediate here but I DO feel that I was called a liar.

End of discussion , on the Lone Wolf company, they aren't worth any more of my time.

Thanks Allen for he vote of support.

Frank N.

I think that one of the purposes,of these forums,is to express your personal experience,that you have had with a supplier of products,or services.We try to help one another,from getting burned.If you had a bad experience,it' dose not mean that others have not had a very good experience,with the same provider.I had a bad experience with a barrel supplier,yet I have only heard good things about him.Never the less,I felt compeled to forum my complaint.It's great that we can communicate,both positively,or negatively.And sometimes we even help each other by our posts.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com