Kenati, I think all his stupid study proves is that elk are most common in the area and wolves are really efficient killers. Speaking of efficient killers, in wisconsin where I'm originally from it's legal for natives to use a spotlight for deer on the rez and they do alot on their way home from the bar. The largest buck ever found dead in wisconsin 230+ n.t. was shot under a spotlight and hit bad on the edge of the rez near my home, it was found later washed up on the shore of lake superior. My friend found the sheds from it the year before. We know it was shot because the drunken native that did it bragged about doing it before it was even found. This is not an isolated incident. Now, I may sound like a bigot but I grew up around them my very best friend is native. There are way more lazy, drunken people within their population than the general population, this speaks to responsibility and I believe it carries over to hunting practices. They use genetics and repression as an excuse for alcoholism, I wonder if it's their excuse for the rest of their irresponsibility. For those native out there who have overcome their cultures problems and are ethical, comitted hunters,like my best friend, My hat's off to you and I'm sorry youhad to read this. Possibly you can convince others to follow your lead.

Tell it like it is,

Aaron

I wrote to one of the biologist involved in the wolf reintroduction project and asked him this:

How did/do the wolves affect the elk population in Yellowstone after their re-introduction? It was originally estimated that the herd would be reduced by 5-30%, but their were other factors that were not accounted for initially. New numbers would be helpful.

His response was:

------------------------------

The jury is out on this one. I can tell you that wolf kill rates are higher then anticipated and the number of wolves the area can support was also underestimated. This suggests impacts on the elk populations in the Park may be considerably stronger than the 'experts' predicted. Caveat here is that what we might be seeing is the wolf population 'overshooting' the capacity of the environment due to an initial super abundance of prey. If this is true we could potentially see the wolf population peak and then decline substantially to a more sustainable level. So lots of uncertainties here, and lots of disagreement among ecologists, but if you want my opinion the elk populations will be reduced beyond the levels suggested in the EIS. I don't think this will be true for elk populations outside of the Park because wolves are constantly getting in trouble with livestock which leads to control actions. These packs will never be stable for very long or reach large numbers like we have seen in the Park (Druid pack at max. numbered 37 wolves!).

Hope this helps.
Robert A. Garrott
Ecology Department
Montana State University
310 Lewis Hall
Bozeman, MT 59717
office 406-994-2270
fax 406-994-3190
rgarrott@montana.edu
http://www.montana.edu/ecology/staff/garrott/index.htm

--------------------------------------------

It seems like an honest response to me. This indicates to me that the "experts" jumped the gun without havign all of their ducks in order. They seemed a bit anxious to play God and Mother Nature, waving their flag under the auspices of the federal government and bunny huggers alike.

My opinion: Yellowstone is a giant test tube funded by our tax dollars. Ocassionally the lab's waste spills over into other areas... this time the waste is the wolves.

~Kenati

I was going to try and stay out of this, but...

My mother is Apache and my father is Cherokee and I do take some offense to the broad generalizations made on this forum.

However, I digress... Sterotypes do exist for a reason. Much of what you say does indeed go on. I have witnessed it first hand. What comes to mind is the old axiom, "It only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole barrel."

But let me add this...

There are plenty of Natives that DO work hard and are very intelligent... unfortunately the limited opportunity on the reservation forces them to leave for greener fields. This tends to leave behind an unbalanced proportion of "bad apples.� As a consequence, whites-eyes (that's you) castigate and label as them as the spokes model for the entire population of natives.

It's a sad and unfair situation. But who said life is fair, right?

Thanks for all the info! The whole thing stinks of Slick Willy. They are his clones. The USF&W is rejecting Wyomings plans for management, WoW, go figure. They lie constantly. They had first agreed to it. Now news is coming out of elk areas around and near the park. Outfitters are reporting 50% fewer elk. But you know what, the WG&F will sell the same amount of permits. Success rates will go down and fewer people will come hunt here and Wyoming will suffer again at the hands of the federal government. Another strange fact is the new Secretary of the Interior has said nothing. She is the boss of these low lifes.

Those numbers regarding the elk kills goes farther to strenghting my opinion of how the wolf focuses mainly on one type of prey til they bring it to a dangerously low numbers. Then they move on to the next.

Stubblejumper,

I have no problems with poachers being arrested and their names advertised. I am not denying that there are some aboriginal poachers. The problem I have is in the way that things have been portrayed here and in the media. For whatever reason, the offenders race or nationality is only revealed when the person is Native. You never hear of the nationality of non-aboriginal poachers. When was the last time you read about a poacher where it the nationality was specifically mentioned and was French, English, Scottish, Irish etc. Why is that? Is it because no other nationality poaches animals, or does it have to do with racial overtones that are present in everyday life with the non-aboriginal population? This is something that you yourself have done. You�ve always been quick to point out Native wrong doings, but fall short in pointing out White wrong doings.

Aside from that, essentially all I am highlighting is the fact that there are numerous factors at work here. It�s not JUST the bears. It�s not JUST the wolves. It�s not JUST the Indians. And it�s definitely not JUST the heroic white-man that pushes for conservation saving all us Aboriginals from certain doom.

Turok

You really nailed it there Kenati.

No one is denying what some bands do, or have done in the historical writings (although you must be careful with historical writings and not to take all that you read for gospel). Yes there were times of starvation. There are many oral histories on this. Was it attributed to over hunting? It�s hard to say as many factors play a role (something I�ve been saying for a while now).

As I stated in my previous post, get off pointing to racial or national identities, UNLESS you do it across the board. There are people all over that do what has been leveled at the Natives. This is seen in the videos with the mechanical deer in an area that is off limits. More than a few times Bubba has been caught shooting out of the front seat of his truck. In one example, we see a guy so intent on shooting the deer, he doesn�t even notice the warden drive up and get out of his truck! In another case, we see a fellow sitting out of the passenger side window and shooting off the roof, with the driver shooting out of his window. I could go on.

Realize that to continue to point a racial finger at a problem does more to expose who you are than provide a solution.

Turok

Turok

Any time I turn on my T.V and switch on a wildlife show I'm reminded of what euro people have done as far back as 2000 years ago. It's not fair to say that the media is biassed towards natives. In Canada it more obvious then the U.S.

Today you could ask a young child why there is animals going extinct and their reply would be hunting. Not native hunters though. We would have to assume that they are being tought just what your accusations are. I'm old enough to take responsibility for myself and will allways hear what my forfathers have screwed up. Bottom line is that if your white and you critisize natives, your a racist. That's a one way street.

It's time for everybody to take responsibility and that includes the natives. You have every right and it should be your duty to defend your people. Maybe one day we will cross paths when I do my anual north hunt. I'm buying.

Turok-As the report on the undercover operation states the poaching operation went on for so long undetected because it was hidden under the guise of subsistance hunting by natives.If a non native had been seen bringing home game animal carcasses so often and out of season, he would have been reported before so many animals could have been poached.The same goes for the night hunting off the highway as described in the report.A non-native would have been reported after the first incident.The fact that this poaching ring could not have existed for so long resulting in so many animals being poached without laws allowing natives to hunt outside of regular hunting seasons and restrictions ,is the reason that these poachers were identified as natives.

I hear the undertone of people thinking of my post as racist. We weren't talking about other country's poeople we were talking about natives. I did not call the spotlighting natives "poachers" as it was legal where they were. I just don't agree with it because it is usually done irresponsibly. As for the drunkenness of the native population,it has a much, much higher rate of alcoholism than any other segment of the population along with other terrible things directly associated with it such as domestic violence and rape. The numbers don't lie. My mother works at a drug and alcohol treatment center in an are where natives make up less than 10% of the population.. Over half of the clients are natives court ordered to be there. This is typical of the rest of the country's native populatoin. I think irresponsible hunting is also a side effect of this.

Just the truth,

Aaron

More livestock was killed in the Ninemile area, west of Missoula this weekend by wolves.

A wolf was shot near the Idaho/Utah boarder this weekend. It was mistaken as a coyote much the same as the one shot in North East Nebraska in December.

Ed Bangs, the wolf USF&W guru orderd killing several wolves near the Utah, WY border. They were caught killing sheep. It's only two dead wolves but it is a start!!!!!!!!

Ed Bangs has had to kill many of his own wolves over time. I don't believe there's a pack anywhere that hasn't been culled for misbehaving.

The Ninemile pack west of Missoula has had many animals removed. What part don't they understand? Wolves are wolves and will act just like wolves no matter where you put them, whether that conduct is appropriate for that location or not. Duh. And no, that is not appropriate in every setting. Not that the wolf advocates really care whether their wolves are a burden or not....

Redial

Read some good news when I got out of bed this morning. Our provincial government has decided to open Wolf season year round with no bag limit in the north eastern part of the province. They say there goal is to double the numbers of moose, stone sheep, mountain caribou, elk and bison.

They have also been sterilizing wolves to decrease their numbers. It's expected that the animal rights movement will cry murder as usual but the Liberals(our provincial gov) are not listening just like when they came into power and lifted the ban on the grizz hunt.

It goes to show people who have had the wolf re-introduced in their area that the numbers of game do get effected. Wolves can co-exist but there needs to be a hunt to control the numbers. It was not hunting in the first place that killed off the wolf, it was extermination.

They are predicting that with the targeted decrease of the wolf and the targeted increase in game, it will ballance out to a larger number of wolves in the future. They just wan't to give the animals time to pro-create.

That IS good news! Make the most of it, for our sake! I doubt wolves observe borders, after all.

Cheers!

Redial

Another calf killed west of Kalispell today. Another two head of stock hamstrung, one with the guts torn out. The problem was taken care of.

Need to bring in the Helicopters and thin them little devils out some...

I predator. Hunted deer in San Diego county amidst the Palm trees. Hunted seal and deer in SE Alaska, elk and deer in Western WA. Every time as a resident. When I wanted to know the game population in area X I would try to contact a biologist. There is only so much credit you can give to the Field and Stream hunting forecast or the advice of joe hunter at the range. Few are more distrusting of the government than I. Large scale science is where the government excells. Not at the top admin/supervisor level where one must support the status quo, but at the field level, where the scientist is in it for the science and not the Yes Man, "Good idea Boss" self promoting buraucracy. I'm a Native Alaskan. I've hunted with more white people though. Was shot and nearly killed by my white hunting partner of nine years. Doesn't make white people more dangerous to hunt with. Hunted plenty with Natives. Never had a tag or license with the Native hunts. Doesn't make natives less responsible. This is the most I have used the term "white people" in a single statement. The distinction is irrelevant. Are you going to tell me there are more wreckless @$$holes in one ethnicity compared to another? Many instances I have been ashamed of people and their lack of respect for nature. I have seen white people kill something because they can and Natives kill something because it's "theirs". As a youngster I caught so many fish one day I could not clean them all and many went bad. My mom made damn sure that wasn't happening again. She was not rare. At the same time the river under the bridge in our village was littered with the carcasses of salmon that people (natives) snagged repeatedly and threw back because it was not the one they were after. A shameful sight. In Washinghton I knew more people that wounded and lost an elk than bagged one. I have run myself ragged trying to track down and kill a wounded bull I have come across. Most people (whites)only showed disgust in the performance of their cartridge when discussing the bull that got away. Blame the cartridge, blame the government, blame the other hunter. Blame the wolf, the bear, the cougar. Aluminum plants do produce contaminates. They also produce the material for your scope and engine manifold. Can you live with one and not the other? What about bow hunters? They bag the elk and disrupt the woods long before my rifle is welcome. The shellfish harvester blames the otter. The fisherman blames the seal.It is interresting that we have identified contributing causes to the decline of big game. What about us? I have known poachers. I fourwheeled into the night as kid with my buddies, a bottle of booze and a rifle. I am glad to say I was never successful. Others were. Sound familliar? When I was fifteen, I regret to say, I killed a hawk because my pals goaded me to. Buffalo and elk, once upon a time, spanned the continent. What managed the "kill everything" wolf? Ever hear of the Passenger Pidgeon? Not a wolf staple by any means. By the 1920's the wolf had been nearly eliminated. Long after that, by the 1940's, game levels were dismally low in many states. Hunters were dragged kicking and screaming into scientific game management policy. Policies based on government biologist studies. I am suspicious on any figure assigned to game counts or human behavior. Accompany a Native hunting party to see thier practices and you will see how that party behaves and not those of the careless punks that would never allow thier disrespect to be witnessed. A safety inspector is scheduled to inspect your business and what will they be shown? Things are wrong. It lies not soley, or mostly with the wolf, the Indian, or industry. Or the hunter. When I was in Washington some friends of mine (white) wanted me to go bag some Elk in the Loowit area. Long forbidden to hunting it was recently alowed to be hunted by natives. No matter what the season, no matter the method. Actually it was not allowed by the state but the courts. I said I could not hunt out out of season without a tag. I was told I could because I am an Indian. I told them just because I can does not make it right. Just like that hawk I killed many years earlier. It is wrong. Wolves are not. 2500 wolves per area is wrong. The Big, Bad Wolf is a simple simple part of a balaced eco system. So are we, if we are constrained by sound regulations. Do we kill them all so we do not have to hike far fom our vehicle to bad an elk? Do we never kill one because they are innocent victims? Either way is wrong. If you do not trust science to direct Game Policy then it is left to the veggie Siera Club types. No cougar killing in California is wrong. Preferential treatment for anyone is wrong. Especially wreckless natives. Basing Game management policy on what you personally interperet is wrong. Moose population low in Alaska? Where I live the sign along the Highway says to "Give moose a break!300 killed this year" due to getting hit. And that is just in my local area. Low moose population in Somewherevik, Alaska does not mean low moose population in Alaska. Not considering the drout, five years old in places, as a low game population factor is wrong. Wolves kill. So do I. So do you. Not writing these exact same messages to our law makers is wrong. You know the eco nazis fill the the Congress and Legislative mail boxes with " stop hunting wolves, and anything else." Too many game animals is just as bad as too many predators (hunters included). Laws that regulate some hunters and not others is even worse. The only thing that will change this is pressure on our Government. I have been among wolves, black bear, seals, brown bear, and killer whales. We were all looking for something to eat. Coexistance is not only possible, but natural. People in places like Ohio, where whitetails have become a serious problem, would welcome the services of the wolf. Some people in places like California, where the cougar is a serious threat, would welcome the hunter. Biologists understand this balance (or should) better than most and support the balance that regulated hunting (for all)can achieve. Eco freaks get their way in the courts. Logic need not apply. Write some of this to your paper, to news agencies, to politicians. We're preachin to the choir here. One other thing; in many small town areas where I lived you could always count on someone living at the end of the road, far from most others, to go out to their property and bag some animal whenever they felt like it. Not a place to find an elk in September because they were killed in June or such. I think that this is far more prevalent than wolves or indians. But that is my own personal interpretation. I would not believe any numbers that a "study" would provide on this matter since it is very much unidentifiable. Disrespectful punks come in all colors and are equally distributed.

First off,the reintroduction of wolves is nothing but a major win for anti hunting. The worst part is,we as hunters promoted the wolf movement.

Instead of being honest and saying "I like to Kill animals and I give less then a shit what you think about it". We instead tried to justify hunting by claiming that hunters act as a replacement for the other natural predators,which no longer exsist in the wild. So the anti's then went out of their way to reintroduce some of these long lost predators (wolves) back into the US.

The reason you're seeing so many big game kills by wolves,is because you have record size elk herds which are artificially high in numbers,making it easy for wolves to prey upon them. Predator to prey species ratios fluctuate constantly. Whenever you have high prey populations,you end up with low predator populations. The predators increase and bring down the prey population,to the point that predators die off from starvation. For hunters this is bad,because you have poor elk and deer herds,so the hunting sucks.

Wolves were killed off a hundred years ago,for doing the same shit they're doing today,the differance is,today we have even fewer wild places,so the impact wolves have is greater. The worst culprit in all of this issue,is the goverment. The endangered species act places unreachable goals in order for delisting. Alot of these goals were arguably unobtainable even before White man arrived in north america.So the chance for delisting is next to impossible with the current human population as it is. The goverment knew full well what the impact of wolves would be and didn't give a shit. They originally hoped that the grizzly would accomplish the elimination of hunting,but grizzlies don't reproduce in high enough numbers like wolves do,so the impact was small.

As for being able to trust the research done by biologists. Nearly every biologist is biased towards something. The biologist that is a closet antihunter,is going to swing the figures in favor of the anti's and vice versa.
I know several biologist in wyoming that work for the game and fish. Both of these guys are at the field level and yet neither of them spends much time in the field. The same goes for all state agencies. When funding is at it's highest,they spend two weeks a year in the field doing counts. If funding is low,the compile past years data and make an "educated guess" as to game conditions. The majority of elk data is obtained from aerial photos. If elk happen to in the timber,while the photos are taken,then a false count is conducted,which doesn't accurately portray the population. Bears and lions are the worst,since most data relies on hunter kills. The game departments are clueless.

The subject of natives and indians being more wasteful then whites,is interesting. Anybody thats spent anytime in Montana or wyoming has seen what the indian reservations are like,they're void of game animals. Yet places like the white Apache reservation are elk hunting meccas. The majority of indians and natives are wasteful,just like they have more problems with alcohol then other races.

Why do indians kill and waste animals. It's kind of like the reason a dog licks its balls,because they can. If you gave white people the authority to kill year round,they'd be just as wasteful as indians.