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| one of us |
Okay, the title is a little immflamatory, of course! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Here's the story: A couple of years ago my buddy took a shot at a nice cinnamon bear, just up the road behind his house. He was using a 7X57, with 139 gr Hornady High Velocity (or whatever it is called) factory ammo. The bullet hit the bear, and knocked him down. The shot was about 200 yards. After that, Mr. Bear got up and took off. He tracked the bear for quite some time, noting blood splotches and footprints, but he never found the bear. He went back several times, bringing his dog the next day. The bear was never found. I've been in the same boat, and we both agonized over it. Yesterday, my buddy had his brother hunting bear with him. In the same area, they ran across a nice cinnamon bear. His brother shot and killed the bear. When they were skinning it, they noted a wound on the bears front leg, that was very deep, but had scsred over. The wound looked like a bullet had hit the front leg, and then shot down the leg, exiting just before it's paw. The wound had left a deep 'hole' and a deep channel down the leg- the muscle of the bear was visible, although heavily scar tissued over. He believes it was the same bear, and I tend to agree, although we only talked over the phone. When he described it to me, I thought he had hit the shoulder, and I said "sounds like the bullet failed." He responded..."Well, no, I hit too low, on the leg. My fault." I agree with him that his placement was bad, but I am surprised that the bullet did not completely penetrate the leg...my only idea was that it was a High Energy load, and that the bullet was designed for slower velocities, but I think that is a little thin, as someone could have loaded it in a 7RM etc... | ||
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Calling bullet failure a excuse for bad placement is a easy way out. Was there any down wards angle to the the shot. Or was it flat shooting. The reason I ask is if the angle was enough one could easy misjudge and cause the bullet to angle down causing the wound mentioned. Even starting out at max. vel in a 7x57 around 2900 that would be hot in that cal. You would be down to 2400 or so at 200 that shouldn't cause that bullet to fail. I think your buddy is right he placed the shot wrong and is will to call it so. | |||
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Gatehouse Bullets can do strange things once they hit the animal, but "Premium" bullets seem to be a lot more predictible. They are well worth the slight extra price. Might not have made any difference in this case, then again it might. I have skinned and butchered a few Black Bears [including a 7'3" square and a 6'9" square] and looking at their bones and the amount of fat they can carry they deserve a premium bullet IMHO. You cannot always make that behind the shoulder lung shot. | |||
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quote:Hey Gatehouse, Back many, many years ago when I was a kid, the Elders used to debate "Light for Caliber" vs. "Heavy for Caliber" bullets a good bit. Bottom line was you could go WRONG in either direction - depending on the game. If it had been me in potential Bear country, I'm sure I'd have picked a "heavier" bullet for the task. Nothing at all wrong with the 139gr Hornady bullet when used on Deer, I've used a good many for that. And there will probably be some folks who have killed a bunch of Bears with lighter bullets, but Bears are built for heavier bullets. Also agree with your buddy about the placement being off - for the 139gr Hornady. A lung shot "might" have been more appropriate with that specific bullet. | |||
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A premium bullet would not have made a difference in this case IMHO. It could have been one of Saeeds Champion guns and not made a difference! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Placement was poor. I just think that the bullet should have at least penetrated the leg, completely. It hit about where a human bicep would be. Not a killing shot. If it had gone in the ribs, it might be a different story. But like I said, I'm surprised it didn't at least go through the leg. [ 05-17-2003, 15:39: Message edited by: Gatehouse ] | |||
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I have looked at recovered bullets (from killed moose) that have failed to expand, and my theory is as follows: A pointed bullet that is designed to expand upon impact may not always do so, even if the velocity is high enough. All depends on what area of the bullet the initial impact is felt. If the bullet's tip hits flesh (or bone) head-on and at the right speed, more than likely the bullet will expand. But if for whatever reason the bullet's nose does not hit head-on, or gets pinched, more than likely the bullet won't expand. In fact, an impact on the side of the bullet's tip or nose can completely change the bullet's path. At the same time, the bullet slows down so much that expansion is not possible. An impact on the side of the nose can even turn the bullet around, or at least change the angle of travel. [ 05-17-2003, 21:32: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ] | |||
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quote:I agree completely. There was not enough to force expansion. The bullet turned and continued on exiting the leg. This is not uncommon. I have seen .22lr behave this way. I worked in a hospital ER for some time. It always surprised me to see someone come in shot in the shoulder with a .22lr and have the bullet removed from the spleen or intestine. The bullet was designed to hit head on and expand when it encountered enough resistance. In this case, because of bad placement, it continued as though it was still in free flight. Pete | |||
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It would be interesting if we could see the original bullet, I would like to see what happened to it, I'm also in the premium bullet crowd. Sure the placement was bad, but s--- happens when your hunting. A premium bullet is a lot more forgiving. | |||
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The very first moose I had shot had a 180 gr Nosler behave in a similar fashion. The moose was shot with a 30-06 at about 10 good paces. It entered a little far back with the moose quartering towards me. On impact with a rib, the bullet took a 90 degree turn and came out close to the front leg on the opposite side. Just looking at the wound, you would not believe that I shot it from where I did. On another hunt, my buddy shot a moose with what looked like an old bullet wound in the ribs (shallow scar tissue), as well as one completely through the neck. Just wasn't ment to die just then I guess. Turok | |||
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I agree with Hotcore. For breaking bones, a heavier bullet is in order. | |||
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Great story, what are the odds? Would a premium bullet have helped? You'll never know but stories like this are why I always hunt w/ premium bullets or lean to the heavy for caliber bullets for big game. Really, bullets are the cheapest part of any hunt, why risk a lost animal for the sake of saving a few pennys on the bullets. I recently tested various 160gr 7mm bullets in my .280 & some wet phone books. It only reinf. my feelings on what type of bullets to hunt with. [ 05-20-2003, 23:10: Message edited by: fredj338 ] | |||
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Rookie question: when hunting bears, or anything else on the bigger side, including whitetail, why wouldn't you always go with a "premium" bullet? | |||
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you can't even be sure it was the same bear and it sounds like to me from your description that scar tissue had formed and in cold weather that takes a very very long time to heal much less scar over...you didn't say how long the lapse was but white scar tissue in winter weather equates to 3 or 4 months minumum, barring any serious infection....wounds are almost impossible to heal in cold weather. | |||
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| <Gunnut45/454> |
Gatehouse I'm not throwing stones here , but 7x57 at 200 yds is pushing that calibers capabilities on Bear!! Seems to me 175 yds should be the max for bear-especially when I here folks on here screeming at people for useing 06 and 150gr for elk and such. And that wasn't bullet failure-just a poor shot- a little wind -flinch-sucking a breath who knows!! I lost my first Muzzel loader shot deer the same way- looked like great hit-40 yds deer down but still moving by the time I realized to wasn't a fatal shot and reloaded deer up and gone!! Saw it two day's later on private land hobbling on three legs!! Looking through bino's I could clearly see the wound just above the knee- broken leg bone- what really pissed me off the land was owned by a tree hugging anti and they wouldn't let me get the wounded deer-Called the game warden and he said there was knowthing he could do!!! ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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quote:The bear was shot (for the frst time ) 2 years ago.No cold weather involved, unless you consider May in SW BC cold.. | |||
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quote:I don't thnk 200 yards would be pushng the capablties of a 7X57 on bear at all, if: The bullet was *maybe* a bit heavier. The bullet was put in the correct place, which it was not... I don't see the difference between 175 and 200 yards, really | |||
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Let me ask a "dumb" question.... Perhaps was this cartridge just a shade too "light" for that size animal? Inquiring minds want to know...since I would like a bear rug in my office too! Mike R. | |||
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quote:It's not too light if you use a good bullet and shoot for the lungs...The 7X57 has been used extensively in Africa for all manner of animals. | |||
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Hi Gatehouse, Wish I would have thought about this a few years ago. I loaded some sierra 220 rn for my Dad's 30-06. Thinking that more powder equals more knock-down power was the way to go I put plenty of powder in the cases. When Old Pops hit Mr black bear in the rib, the bullet blew (broke) into 3 separate pieces ( we have all 3) It killed the bear deader than piss but blew a heck of a hole in the side. It didn't penetrate more than a few 5 or 6 inches. If I had it to do over (which I do next year) I would use a premium bullet. I don't think a Nosler Partition or equal bullet would have come apart like that. If you don't use the premium bullets for target practice I think they are well worth the price. Good luck. Joe | |||
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Gatehouse, Sorry I misunderstood the time involvement, I thought it was weeks not years..... I think the problem may be the hi-energy ammo with the standard 7x57 139 gr. bullet..Perhaps the velocity is just too much and bullet integrity comes into play...I have suspected that all along on Hornadys Hi-energy ammo, mostly on the 300's etc. but perhaps the 7x57 has this failing and thats what turned the bullet... I have shot the 7x57 on a lot of stuff and I feel it is as good as a .308 or 30-06 properly loaded but IMO the 139 gr. Hornady is a poor choice for bear as they have a very heavy coat of hair and suck up blood like a sponge, I would have chosen a 160 to 175 gr. Nosler or even Hornady. That said a hit in the leg is a hit in the leg unless it was high enough that it would have driven into the boiler room... | |||
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Lasat year Elk hunting one person in the party shot a bear, that was actually straight down a cliff from him when he hit it. He had to make sure he did not fall off the cliff shooting the bear. He shot it 3 times before it went down. First shot went thru the shoulder and out the front paw. The distance was about 70 yds or so, straight down. After the first shot, it limped away about 150 yds. Two more shots were good hits. All three shots were good placements, and they were 250 gr Nosler Partitions shot from a 338 Mag. Once the bear was gutted and skinned and bagged, the guy threw it over his shoulder and packed it about 400 yds to the road, so you can tell it was not huge. This story is drawing no conclusions, I am just passing on what happen. My take on it, is that even "perfect" bullets, caliber, shotplacement, etc still does not mean there is not going to be something that does not behave like it should be doing. | |||
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As far a the bullet, what was it a interlock, sst,what was it. As far as Ray At. the 139 interlock is a good bullet, mind you are not a know it all. I am not saying I would have used that bullet on a bear or suggest it. Shot placement is everything, and if hit right it should have went down even with the 139 interlock. And if it was a sst bullet thats why. Shot placement even with sst is hard cause it opens on impact and on a bear even a little blk bear they will get away if the shoulder is not broke or the vitals are not hit. I have used that 139 since 1972 in my 7 mag loaded to the NUTS, and you will not see that load in any books now-days Hornady Vol 2- 71.4 grs H-4831. I know what that bullet can and will not do, and that is all most any thing ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} [ 08-10-2003, 05:01: Message edited by: 4bambam ] | |||
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| One of Us |
Gatehouse, years ago I read in one of my Ackley books that Spire pointed bullets often tend to deflect downwards on impact. I don't remember the reason why.....but there was one. Anyway, not long after that I was out with a friend at a small lake. Had my 30/06 along and some military FMJ ammo. We noticed there was a few pieces of an abandoned pier jutting out into the lake. One of the boards was a 1 X 6 sticking straight up out of the water. There was some sort of knot or something near the top of the board and about 4 ft above the water. I decided to shoot the spot. The instant the rifle went bang, there were chunks of wood blown out the back of the board but just a few feet behind the board the bullet plowed into the water going almost straight down. Blew a BIG geyser of water into the air. I was amazed the bullet had made an almost 90 degree change in direction just from going thru a 1" piece of old pine board. Since then I've see this happen a few other dramatic times. Point being I think this is certainly the bear your friend shot. It sounds to me like IF he had been shooting some premium bullet, then it MIGHT have gone complete thru the bear's leg. However, had it done that, I think there is still a very good chance the bear would have gotten away from you guys. Even a broken leg would not have anchored him. As it was, the bear healed and obviously did pretty good for another couple of years until the job could be done right. I think all your friend needs to do is go up a size in bullet...something a little heavier. 139 sounds a bit light to me for his intended task. Even premium bullets can do squirrely things now and then. | |||
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All said Pecos, Amen to that. | |||
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