Gentlemen,

I heard stories of people shooting big game - like elk - which have been raised in large pins.

Apparently you call the owners of the ranch, and ask him for a particular size animal. Once the price is agreed on, the animal is removed from the herd, put in another enclosure, and the client comes over and shoots it.

Any feedback would be much appreciate it.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Elk and white-tail seem to be the ones abused like this the most but I think most of the "ranches" are in Canada. There is even one elk "ranch" where you can dart the elk and have your picture taken with it as if you shot it.....wow.

Saeed,

Elk, whitetails, and Bison are the most likely to be found in a canned hunt. Some of the hunts are as you have heard and are conducted behind a high fenced enclosure some less that a mile square. As far as I'm concerned, this is as low as poaching at night with a light. There are more of these operations than you would think....no accounting for taste I guess! No offense to you or others on this or the African Forum but I would certainly rather not have an "African Experience" or any other experience if it was behind a fence. IMHO it sure isn't hunting. I really don't wish to start a flame over the fence issue, shooting behind a fence just isn't for me. I guess that's why people like me live in Alaska, lots of opportunity, no fences.

Saaed,

this is not only an American phenomenon. There are a lot of such opportunities here in Europe too. In each number of the hunting magazines there are a lot of such hunt on capital game as boar or deer. Prices are ot quite modest.

But I hesitate to call it hunting: it�s nothing but shooting ranges with living targets. I share the disgust uttered by the other posters in this thread.

Best regards,

Fritz

Here in Alberta these types of canned hunts for Elk and deer are illegal. Someone may be doing it, but they are breaking the law ( both legally and morally as far as I'm concerned). I have heard of this kind of thing with bison, which aren't classed as a game animal or domestic animal here, and kind of fall between the cracks. I still find it repugnent. FWIW - Dan

This kind of thing also goes into such game as Lions, Bears,Mountain lions, and any other type of game that is much sought after.The prices are from modest to high depending on the game and size.If you have the money the sky is the limit.The future of hunting in the US and other countries will be on leasted land or canned hunts as the population of the world grows. I hate it but the facts are there.

"Pay Per Point" hunts, as I call them seems to boil down to two things. To much money to spend and to much money to be made. If Joe Blow has more money than morals and or stamina then he just wants the thrill of the kill and something BIG on his wall to brag about, many ranchers are realizing this and are more than willing to make a profit. Thats the way I see it, if I am wrong then someone tell me I'm wrong.

I visited a deer farm in northern Maine last summer, and was told that some of the premium stags (all red deer) were being sold over the internet (photos posted) to clients who would buy the animal, have it shipped to a texas game farm and shoot the "trophy". Seems like an empty hunt to me...no challenge whatsoever.

It's a great deal for the farm, as they get top dollar for the animals, which would be slaughtered for venison otherwise.

DP

Texas has a law prohibiting "canned hunts" for the big cats, bears, etc.

As far as ungulates, they are considered table fare for slaughter, whether by a hammer to the head at a packing plant or by bullet out in the field. Although legal to kill them in whatever manner, this doesn't mean that anyone seriously considers shooting a pre-selected individual within a small enclosure to be "hunting".

I have to agree with Stonecreek. I know several elk and bison farmers/ranchers. In recent years they have allowed individuals to come over and shoot their own meat as it were. These animals are raised for meat and as such are butchered and sold to either restruants, meat locker/grocery stores, or the private individual.

That said some of the operations will allow animals to be shot in the field and others shot them right in the stock yard. No one in the right mind would consider these hunts though. The one thing that does bother me about some of the operations today particularily with bison is that they try and make it out to be somekind of reliving of a bygone era. I mean they tell you stories about how the bison were important to the indians and they dress you up in either indian or pioneer clothing and take you out to shoot an animal on a 50 acre parcel. There is a place like this not too far from my farm here in Iowa. I find these operations to be disturbing to say the least. What is the most disturbing isn't the farmer it is the individuals that this is catered to. I mean why would anyone dress up in a loin clothe and war paint to go shoot a bison in plain view of a small town about a 1/2 mile away. You can also see the road and the farm house which are only about 100 - 200 yards away.

Kent

Alot of these 'wild boar' hunts in the north east can go into the canned categorey as well.

A friend of mine went to Tioga Farm in PA a while back to hunt the elusive 'wild boar'. As an ex infantry officer he grew suspicious as the guide walked him in a big loop over and over agin for a few hours in the am. Finally the guide disappeared and in the same direction the 'wild boar' came running on by.

I have heard similar stories about this place from a lot of guys.

The 'wild boar' and mouflon ram are reffered to as brooklyn sheep and pigs around here. Alot of these city folk (not all) do a good part of theri big game hunting at these places.

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www.rifleshooter.com

Save a plant, shoot a deer!

I would think that most bison hunts are done on animals running in large pastures that may not be all that wild. They are probably easy to approach but that's where they exist other than a national park or preserve.

Leo,

We have free roaming herds(bison) here in Alaska but they are draw hunts. The permits are very limited and highly coveted. NO FENCES!

Joe

Here in California, some of the ranches on the Central Coast will call in to the outdoor newspapers or writers and tell them about a particular giant boar that was "spotted" on the ranch.

They charge an extra premium to try and "help" you find it. They tell you, "we see him near here at the same time every day", so being at the right spot at the right time is important (you wouldn't want to be late when they release him).

I've been thinking. How many would agree that these "hunts" give hunting a bad name. I really think that this type of crap should be outlawed. These aren't wild animals are they. The next thing they will be selling cattle and pig shoots. I can see the sales pitch now. Don't pay $4 a pound for you beef come and shoot your own for $.50 a pound. The price per pound is an average for the whole weight of the animal. Now who in their right mind would condone that kind of activity.

Kent

Captured wild hogs sell for good prices here in Texas and mostly exported to Europe for meat. I'm told the big boars, which are near worthless for meat, bring a $50 premium over the regular per-pound price if they exceed 250 pounds. They are sold to game ranches for "hunting".

Delete the word - "hunt" and sbstitute "greed" and you would be closer to the mark.!!

Steve H

I don't know anything about hog hunting, but have hunted Bison twice, once in Alaska (no fences), once in South Dakota (fenced in area of over 10,000 acres). The Alaska hunt was like shooting fish in a barrel - set on the edge of a farmers barley field in the evening, wait for the Bison to come out of the woods to feed in the field - BOOM! South Dakota hunt - find a small heard with a good bull, stalk to about a hundred yds., lay your rife (muzzle loader or breech loader) in the shooting sticks and take your shot. Neither hunt is like stalking through the bush after a deer or bear, but if you put it into a historical perspective, it never was! There are many accounts of the settlers wagon trains moving west in the 1840's and 50's that were stopped FOR DAYS by the huge heards. Now that's shooting fish in a barrel! I guess if you really want to put some sport into it, you would jump bare back onto a half-wild mustang with your bow or speer and chase them down!:} By the way, if you do get one, the meat is some of the best, and the head makes an awesome trophy.

saskdeer.com/trophy/

Come slaughter a tame Sask whietail at 50 yards, for only $4 GRAND US DOLLARS.

BANG A FEED BUCKET, AND THEY COME RUNNIN'

double post... sorry it wouldn't delete

[This message has been edited by Pa.Frank (edited 02-01-2002).]

We had a guy at work that shot some kind of sheep or goat or something at one of these canned hunt places in Northern PA. He was real proud of it, had the head mounted, had a picture of himself with it on his desk, and everything, talked about it for weeks and was planning another trip for some kind of exotic deer....

UNTIL ALL THE REAL HUNTERS started busting on him about his hunting trip to the PETTING ZOO

He never said another word, the picture on his desk disappeared

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Don't tread on me!
Pennsylvania Frank

Johnny Ringo,

The link did not work, I will try to fix it:

http://www.saskdeer.com/trophy/

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www.rifleshooter.com

Save a plant, shoot a deer!

Substitute the word "hunt" for "shoot" and no one should have a problem with the practice anymore. These animals are considered livestock. It's no different than shooting a cow on a farmer's field.
It was outlawed in Manitoba recently, based on the majority of people thinking it was "unethical". I don't get it.
This isn't a Canadian thing. There are far more hunting preserves in the US than Canada.

Unfortunately it happens because there is a market for it.

A couple years ago a guide/outfitter was guiding a client in the area my Dad has a ranch. Each day on the way to the bush to hunt moose this client would see big bull bison in the fields. He decided he wanted to shoot one, so the guide/outfitter approached one of the ranches in the area. For a large wad of dough the rancher let the outfitter's client shoot a large bull, in the paddock while it was getting grained. They then took the tractor and drug the bull out to the bush so the "hunter" could get a picture that would allow him to tell all his buddies it was shot in the wild!

Everyone's got a story like this it seems. Personally I just don't get it.

Canuck

I was going to mention one other example. My boss married a lady from New Zealand, so they travel over there from time to time to visit family. Last time he was there he got some great pictures of some tame Red Deer stags on a friends ranch. Turns out this guy sells these deer to oufitters, who turn them loose just before the clients arrive. These deer will eat out of your hand! They don't refer to their size by the number of points, they refer to their size by the amount a client will pay to shoot them!

Anyway, I guess my only point is that it happens pretty much everywhere.

Canuck

One of my brothers did this, sort of.

He bought a bison for meat, and rather than have the packing house kill it he shot and quartered it, put it all in the back of his truck then drove it to the meat packing house. However he makes no bones about the fact that this wasn't hunting, this was butchering.

I don't know if you will find this part amusing or not, I kinda do, but he had a kid help him with the skinning and butchering part, it is a fair bit of work for an animal this large, and the kid said he would help him do the whole thing for free....... If my bro took a picture of him posing with the buff- with his bow!

Saeed,

To answer your question, it's becoming rather common. I remember 35 years ago reading about paying to go hunt planted pheasants on a "preserve" and thought it was a dumb idea. Now, it's very common and quite acceptable in the area I live. Unless you have great dogs and access to exceptional private land, you could hunt for days and never see a pheasant. Or, you can go to a "pheasant farm" and have a couple hours of decent action.

In the last ten years the canned whitetail hunting has increased ten-fold. The prices are usually based on how the whitetail scores, and at many places $10,000 won't get you the biggest one on the place, (I've seen some that went for nearly 20 grand!)

Past couple year "guaranteed" elk hunts are springing up. People apparently tire of spending a couple grand for a western state elk hunt where success rate is marginal. So there's several dozens (hundreds?) of places where you can buy an elk. Price is based on size. You can find these hunts from Florida to Saskatchawan (sp?).

Right or wrong, like it or not, I think we will see more of this here in North America. As pressure increases on public land, as more private land gets leased up by big hunting outfitters, as cheap/good hunting becomes harder and harder for the "average hunter" to obtain, the alternative will become this type of "hunt".

I'm not saying I'm a proponent of it, but that in a certain sense it's inevitable. Just as the hunting of 1955 was different from the hunting of 1890, the hunting of 2005 will be different from the hunting of 1955. IMHO

Why is this bad?
Raising animals, and using them for food, clothing, trophies, whatever, is not new.

How they die is irrelevant. Slaughter houses are infamous for poor slaughters, using sledges, and 22 short, or cutting the animals up, before they have died.

Having people nail them with high powered rifles seems much more humane to me, if it's not hunting, that's ok.

Much like the game farms in Africa, it's nice that the raising of the animals is so profitable, that the elimenation of the spieces doesn't occur.

I'm all for keeping game, and shooting a few, to pay for the rest.

The oldest are the ones everyone wants for trophies, so they lead a full life, and die a bit early, but it's still better then being eaten by a lion, or a predator.

It also preserves the value of the land, and makes keeping large amounts of wilderness areas for game, rather then farming, or whatever.

It seems to me, that if you don't want to kill game that way, fine. But if you do, you provide revenue to the land owner, preserve the spieces, and get a nice bit of meat to eat.

I'd be inclined to ask one of these ranches to kill the animal for me, and cut it up, so I could have fresh venision.

gs

Socrates,
I for one do not see anything wrong with the buying or selling of these animals if thats what floats your boat but thats where it ends for me. It should be made clear that it is what it is and that is a purchase and not a hunt, to accept this type of transaction as a hunt now could only lead to a dark future.h

Socrates, there is hunting, and there is farming.

Hunting requires one set of ethics (fair chase, etc), farming another (humane husbandry practices etc).

The lines cross, but to shoot a farm animal and pretend it is hunting sucks. I have nothing against selling farmed buffalo "at the end of the barrel". As a matter of fact, I think it is a great way for people to reduce their food bill, as well as improving their diet. I ran a pay-lake trout farm for a while. Very few, if any, people had a problem with us selling our trout "at the end of a line". Lot's of grand-pa's taking trophy pictures of the grandkids with their first fish, though.

But those people shoot the yearling bulls or cows, not the $7500 "trophy" bulls.

I think what makes it the hardest to swallow is that if someone is willing to pay $10,000 for a trophy, that fee could be used to improve enough habitat to raise another trophy like that, every year, for decades to come. Which is what happens when trophy sheep tags are sold, etc. Admittedly, that's like shooting fish in a barrel, sometimes, too. But at least it is used to benefit the species.

The "canned" shoot is BASED on deception, and no good comes from it, for anyone. A canned hunt, typically, is only to obtain bragging rights, pictures, and a mount. It's not about food, or the experience of hunting, learning woodmanship, pitting your skill against the animal. It is an incomplete experience. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch,

Where are you going to find trophy class bison? I mean in quantities that we can hunt. The odds are almost the same as winning a lottery with regard to drawing tags in Utah or Alaska!

Now I personally have no problem with people shooting animals in an open field. I don't personally feel that shooting them in the feed lot is such great thing though. My biggest issue with this whole business is that these animals which have been bred and fed out specifically for record size are then considered by B&C and SCI for entering into the record books. I think this practice should not happen.

To all of you that say it is not fair chase because there is a fence around that 1000 acre field. You guys had better not hunt in Missouri, Iowa, South Dakota, Illionis, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, etc, etc, etc. We white people put up fences a long time ago. I don't think I have ever shot a deer that wasn't in a field that didn't have somekinda fence around it. As far as feeding the deer goes. Those damned deer each several acres of my corn ever year! I wish the deer didn't but they do.

Kent

It is prostitution plain and simple. There are those who will pay a women to make them believe they are a great lover. There are those who will pay a rancher to make them believe they are a great hunter.

The practice of raising elk and selling them for people to shoot seems to have expanded in the past decade or so..Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico and even Montana has "ranches" were you can shoot a really big elk for $7000 to $10,000, as well as some of the places mentioned above. Not all of these ranches are fenced. Ted Turner has a couple of these really big ranches where you can shoot really big elk for about $10,000 a pop..one ranch is in New Mexico and the other is in Montana. The success rate on these fenced and unfenced ranches is 100%. If you do not shoot one, it is because you chose not to. I have never shot an elk in a place like that. But am I above shooting one of these elk? Hell no.

As far as shooting other heavily controlled animals, like bison, I have to say that first, there are no free-ranging bison herds anywhere, including the bison here in Alaska...bison are animals that are with few exceptions private property and whether they are owned by the state or by a private individual they are extensively managed: someone knows where they are, how many there are, how many calves were dropped in the spring, and, utimately, someone will determine how many they will allow to be shot and how many will be used for looking at. I have shot a bison that was private property, and I both liked the experience and look forward to shooting my next bison. Is it a hunt? Of course not. But I like eating bison and I respect the animal enough to want to be as close to the animal as I can get..I am embarrassed to buy bison meat at the store (but I do it) and I think it is quaint to see people buy buffalo-burgers. And for those who have shot a bison and put your hands on its foot-long jet-black hair when it still had blood running out of it nose, only they know how truely great the beast is... But if you want to shoot a bison, you are going to have to sacrafice this free-range fair-chase ethic, because free-range fair-chase bison hunting does not exist and has not existed since they stopped migrating from North Dakota to Texas. Whether you shoot bison as they leave Yellowstone, or as they feed on some farmers pasture out of Delta Junction, or as they feed in short grass praire on someone's ranch in Wyoming, there is really no difference...they are all managed and protected until you shoot...

I have to say that shooting caribou here in Alaksa, something that I like to do because I like eating caribou and I like being out on the tundra, is nothing like true hunting and is really just shooting....and there are no fences involved...shooting caribou is no more diffecult than shooting one of those big private ranch elk in New Mexico. You don't need a fence for hunts to be canned. There is a reason why outfitters here can truely claim 100% success on caribou. But do I hold it against a person when they feel proud that they shot a nice bull: hell no. I am happy for them and I will be proud with them in their success. Like with the bison, I simply make a mental and emotional distinction between situations that have a greater degree of predicted success, and situations that afford a lesser degree of predicted success. There are many examples of animals that are not confined
within high fenced areas that are shot with a high degree of success being certain. I would classify these animals as being harvested or collected, and not hunted. And it has nothing to do with the presence or absence of a fence and has everything to do with the value that the killer places on the animal killed and the circulstance under which it was killed. As long as it is legal, I think we should not be too judgemental of what others do. And if people want to pass judgement on what others do legally, then I think they should stop pretending and just send their money to PETA, and be done with it. As for me, I am a preditor...if the only elk I could legally shoot was one in a pen, then I would be faced with the option of not shooting elk and start eating more wheat, or shoot the penned elk. I am not faced with those options so I can hunt cow elk in an unfenced but heavily managed strip of land in Wyoming (or elsewhere) where the resident herd of elk provide me an extemely high probably if success on a five day shoot.

In the end I am a preditor. Some of you are taking such a high moral ground that it might be best if you stopped eating meat altogether and joined PETA.

Robert

rwj,

Very well put!!

Robert, check into the Arizona north rim herd if you want a free roaming buffalo hunt. It's not 100%. It's NOT a canned shoot. Tags are the devil to draw, of course. FWIW, Dutch.

WOW
Paul H, never has a nail been hit on the head "better"

Rwj, for the most part I agree with you 100%. The only proviso is that the bison hunt around Pink Mt, BC, is a free ranging hunt, especially in the later seasons (after they have been driven away from the easily accessible areas, and are harder to find and spooky like whitetails).

The bison I shot last year took me 10 days of hunting to find and get a shot at, and was 42 km from where you could get your truck. No fences, no nothing...just a pile of wilderness.

FWIW, Canuck

Paul everybody pays a women to be told they are a great lover or to be told they are not. I know no women who give it away for free.

Kent

I was not really trying to beat up on anyone and I have consistently respected Paul's opinions and his consistently good advice...

But I do not see the benefit gained in making an anology between using prostitutes and shooting heavily managed animals....we can all start making divisive classifications...the difference between people who use bow and arrows and those who use rifles...or those who use outfitters and guides and those that are competent enough to find their own animals...it could legitmately be argued that anyone who pays money to a guide/outfitter is no different than the guy who pays money to a prostitute...I do not see the benefit in name-calling...Anyone who has hunted seriously knows that a good guide/outfitter is worth his or her weight in gold. I have hunted some the best hunting grounds in the world, including Africa, the western United States, and Alaska where my home is right now, and I will continue doing so until I can no longer... some of these experiences, for all types of reasons, were exciting and some were not and some were hard and some were easy but none of these experiences are similar to prostitution...(anyway, you make prostitution sound like a bad thing

Canuck: I know there are various herds of bison across North America and I believe there are various degrees of what constitutes "free-ranging" anything, including bison. I have seen on more than one occassion the bison there in parts of British Columbia when I am driving through and around your wonderful province and I have seen some of the bison over in the lower (northern) reaches of the Peace River east of Highlevel, Alberta. Your bison and the Wood buffalo over in Alberta are truely huge, magnificent beasts. And I covent them! And I am certain, as you described, that they are diffecult to obtain. How did you get yours out? Horse/mule?

Enough of my rambling.

Robert

I am very much against canned hunts in the United States, especially when it involves any of our native big game species (rocky mtn. elk and whitetail deer.) I'm not too concerned about bison as they have already been reduced to livestock, but I don't believe we need to do the same with our other big game animals of which there are very good populations of in many states. Game farms are a threat to our wild herds due to the spread of disease, and many other reasons. Some of you may not know that Montana just recently banned canned hunts. It was mainly the sportsman of Montana who were responsible for getting an initiative on the ballot to be voted on by the people of Montana. Here is a good article to read by Valerius Geist, a well known wildlife biologist: www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarm/elkprofit.html