Every time there is a Barnes failure thread...somebody makes the statement...

Nosler partitions are 100%...never fail.

I have never known anything made by man to be 100% reliable. So is the Nosler partition the first 100% reliable product on the planet?

Nope, I've heard of them failing. Never seen one fail in person, and never recovered one either. Haven't killed a whole lot of game with the NPT, and never with a Barnes bullet of any kind. Killed a whole bunch of stuff with Sierra, Speer, Hornady, and plain old Nosler BT bullets. I've only seen one bullet that I considered a failure, but it still killed the animal.

I have some quite a bit of game with them and they have always preformed for me. I did have trouble with the BT bullet and some from Sierra.

I had a partiion come apart on a close up neck shot on a muledeer. the lead went through and the copper partion jacket ended up folllowing the hide down the neck abour 2 feet. That was my only one. I have recovered many and they always seem to maintain 65% weight retention.

True that nothing is infallible but so far, I haven't had any problems with NPs. I can also say the same thing about Game kings, Core Lokts, Grand Slams, and other assorted bullets.
A heavy for calibre bullet at a optimal killing velocity of 2600-3000fps and you can avoid many of the "bullet failures" that you read posted.

I've had several Partitions come apart into schrapnel. That's the specific reason I switched to Barnes.

I had one fail.

I once shot an impala for rations with my 375. Easy shot at close range. At the shot, the impala reared up on its back legs. I could see organs hanging out. We followed the wounded impala. There was blood everywhere and organs on the ground. When we got to the impala, we noted its body cavity had been ripped open. Closer inspection reveals tiny metal fragments everywhere. It had clearly shattered.

I've killed probably a hundred head of deer size game with Nosler Partitions in 264WM(125), 270(130), 7mmRM(140), 30-06(150), 375H&H(300) and never had a failure. The few recovered bullets that failed to pass thru were double calibre and 65-70% weight, usually after 3-4 feet of penetration(stem to stern).

In 2005, I traveled to Alberta for a whitetail/mulie combo hunt. I was using 160 grain nosler partitions in my 7mm Remington mag. I was primarily looking for a giant mulie, so when a nice 140 class whitetail stepped out in front of me at 75 yards on the first evening, I carefully shot him in the left shoulder crease. The buck was slightly quartering away, and reared up at the shot with his left front leg hanging straight down. I was certain that the bullet hit exactly where it was aimed, which would cause it to take out the opposite shoulder. He ran off toward the treeline, which was about 150 yards away, and went down at the edge of the timber. My guide slapped me on the back, and said "let's go get your deer". We walked to the treeline, and found where the buck had gone down, but no deer and no blood was present. This was in an area of prairie which had dispersed stands of timber ranging from a few acres to 50 acres or so in size. The patch that the buck had run into was about 50 acres in size. We hunted for the buck for about an hour without success. Since it was now dark, we decided to come back the next day to retrieve the buck. The next day, 3 of us went back and combed the entire patch of bush for 2 hours without finding anything. I was disappointed, but continued to look for a big muley. The next morning, I connected on a great mule deer buck, then returned to the stand that I had shot the whitetail from to look for a whitetail. We had hardly settled into the blind when I spotted a good buck walking across the open hillside beyond the patch of bush 150 yds in front of us. When he abruptly bedded in our line of vision, which was about 300 yds away, I carefully climbed down from the blind, and used the terrain to stalk up and took the buck. When we got to him, we saw that it was the buck from the first evening. There was a bullet hole in the crease of the left shoulder where I aimed, and the right shoulder was broken. The right leg and shoulder was frozen solid, yet this buck had still been walking around. When we opened him up to field dress him, the lungs were black and smelled odd. The original shot had apparently traversed both lungs, breaking the off shoulder just as it was intended to do. Why this deer didn't die quickly is beyond me. I don't know whether to call it bullet failure, or just one of those things that don't make sense. The deer in question weighed around 200 or so live weight, so it wasn't due to being exceptionally huge. I have not had any issues with nosler partitions before or since this incident, but it has shaken my confidence in this bullet. I haven't given up using them, since my rifle shoots them so well.

I've killed several dozen animals with 175-grain 7 mm Nosler Partitions ranging in size from javelina and grysbok to elk, moose and eland without a single bullet failure.

Perhaps it's because I judge "failure" by whether the animal died when I put the bullet where it should go. If the animal is down, why should it matter what a recovered bullet weighs?

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I'm not trying to call folks liars becaue I do honestly believe you all.

But there are multiple pictures of Barnes not opening, etc...

I have yet to see a picture of a 'failed' NP.

Somebody please post one.

In my experience NP's shed the front half of the bullet and the partition and back half are left for roughly 60% wieght retention.

Todd

Todd, unfortunately, I don't have any pics of my failed partitions. Mainly due to the fact that the last time I shot them was sometime in the mid 90's before the digital camera revolution. In fact, many of the hunting pictures I had from the pre-digital camera times have been lost in multiple moves from TX to CO and back to TX. To be quite honest, back then, I really had no reason to consider taking pictures of recovered bullets since I didn't write articles for hunting magazines and the internet was not even on my radar, not to mention forums such as this. I shot a Whitetail sometime around 95 with a Remmington CoreLockt bullet in 7mm Mag. That bullet shattered into schrapnel as well with most of it not penetrating through the shoulder. The second shot actually killed the deer. But again, with no compulsion to take bullet pictures back then, I just threw it on the ground while dressing the deer. Also, prior to digital cameras, I took only a fraction of the pictures I do today as it was just too much of a hassle to take the film in for developing, then actually keep up with the prints.

Of course with animals such as Whitetail, if the animal is killed, it really doesn't matter that much what the bullet looked like afterward. Where it becomes an issue, IMO, is in the taking of very large and or dangerous game animals. In those situations, you don't always get that nice, unobstructed, broadside shot at 100 yards or so. Often, you have the need to drive the bullet at an odd angle through a considerable amount of the animal's body inorder to reach the vitals. If you have to drive that bullet through 3/4's of body mass on something like a Cape Buffalo, having that bullet disintegrate after 4 or 5 inches could be a real problem. This, and only this, is the reason I don't put much credence in the statements such as "it didn't fail because it killed the animal".

But specifically, I'm not talking about the partitions failing from the front smearing off. I'm stating that the rear portion has separated into schrapnel pieces because the jacket and core are not bonded. IMO, if the partition type of bullet is where a person places his confidence, the Swift A-Frame is the way to go. Same concept but the cores and jacket are bonded. I don't know that I've heard of an A-Frame failing to remain intact. Like the Barnes X / TSX and North Fork, the A-Frame is a true premium bullet. Personally, I would place the Partition somewhere between standard and premium bullets concerning classification.

Todd,

I can't believe that you would hijack my thread with discussions of Swift A-frames. How utterly freaking inconsiderate.

I think the only proper and fair thing for you to do is go the freezer and find me some left over cow elk and ship it to my house.

I've killed 20 or 25 head of game of all sizes from moose down with partitions and never had a failure. I have heard that if the bullet reverses, traversing base first, that it will frequently come apart. No, I don't think that they are perfect, but complete failures are a very low percentage. Currently my favorite bullets are heavy for caliber Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Swift A-frames, but I'm going to hunt elk this fall with Nosler Partitions. I'll bet they work just fine.

I've used Noslers in 7mm Rem Mag, 6.5x55, 6.5x54MS, 9.3x64 and 375H&H. I've never seen one fail. Not saying they are 100% all the time in every situation but for me thay have been. When I'm not shooting Noslers, I'm shooting Woodleighs. Like the old saying goes: Don't argue with success.

Have had much success with nosler partitions, both in the US and Africa. Switched to Barnes Triple Shocks and A-Frames for accuracy reasons. I did witness one failure in a 338 Win Mag with a 225 grain NP. Buddy of mine hit him in the shoulder, pretty much broadside. Hours and hours later, and miles away, never found him.

Still view it as a great bullet, though.

The problem here, as always, is how do you define "bullet failure"?

Does poor shot placement, poor choice of shot angle, poor choice of bullet for the job at hand, poor choice of bullet for the caliber and or expected impact velocity, justify the pronouncement of "bullet failure" because in someones opinion the bullet "juda, wooda, coulda" if it was just a (fill in the name of YOUR favorite bullet).

Have I ever had a bullet fail? Yes, but what are my criteria? Are they different from yours? Are we actually making valid comparisons or are we comparing apples to aardvarks?

Just as reference, I've killed and seen killed hundreds of game animals. I've talked with PH's and local guides and have my conclusions and preferences. I've used lots of Accubonds and NP's in 224 to 366 and they've always worked FOR ME. I've had good results with some Hornadys, NBT's and Sierra's. My experience with Barnes is limited because: 1) They have copper fouled the hell out of every rifle I've ever shot them in, must be just me, but this is MY experience and 100% valid for ME. I have seen them pencil through a few animals when shot by others, NOT impressed. (Yes, we recovered the animal therefore not a failure, blah, blah... same goes for Sierra's whatever...) Some people I respect that have more experience with them than I are not impressed either.

I'll stick with NP's, Accubonds and the Hornadys I like, because that's MY experience.

Nope. Not yet...

Using Partitions in a 243 on mule deer I experienced failure to expand (they penciled right through) at about 100 yds. The deer died, but it took multiple (three I think) hits. In the 270 they have always performed perfectly.

for those who think the "shrapnel" form a partition is a failure it is not. The are made with a soft frontal to do exactly that. the idea is that all those little pieces will cause massive damage - and they do. That said i did have one failure. There were a group of bush pigs with a large boar in it. We waited them out and when the big guy came out i shot a 165 gr partition out of an 06. The pigs ran away. When we walked up to investigate we found the bullet sticking in a small mopane tree. It was right next to the ground and penetrated only enough to stick. The failure was that there was an empty rear core. and only about 1/2 of the lead in the front.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
for those who think the "shrapnel" form a partition is a failure it is not. The are made with a soft frontal to do exactly that. the idea is that all those little pieces will cause massive damage - and they do. That said i did have one failure. There were a group of bush pigs with a large boar in it. We waited them out and when the big guy came out i shot a 165 gr partition out of an 06. The pigs ran away. When we walked up to investigate we found the bullet sticking in a small mopane tree. It was right next to the ground and penetrated only enough to stick. The failure was that there was an empty rear core. and only about 1/2 of the lead in the front.

Hello Butch,

On the Partition failure reports I've referred to, I was specifically talking about the rear portion disintegrating into schrapnel, not the front. As in your report above, the rear core has separated from the jacket since it isn't bonded. I haven't heard of this with the A-Frame which is a near identical design, but with a bonded core to the jacket.

Hi Todd, there isn't a perfect bullet out there yet as far as I'm concerned, the North Fork bonded core bullets are close, but there are a lot of good choices. If I had my wishes it would be:

A Swift A-Frame or North Fork with:

A slightly thinner jacket up front so it would expand better at longer distances (out to 600 yards)

A profile and a tip like the TTSX so it would feed better, have a better BC and facilitate expansion at longer ranges (North Fork is much closer, except for the tip in this regard)

A solid boattail rear (no place for the "bonded" lead to squeeze out), once again the North Fork is much closer in this regard.

For my 270 Win and Weatherby rifles, a BC in the 150g over .5 would be lovely, I'd like to see a 160g high BC bullet for my 270 Weatherby that would still expand at long range but be able to hold together and penetrate on a shoulder shot on grizzly.

For my 500 Jeffery the 570g TSX and Barnes Banded solids pretty much fit the bill.

Chuck,

I completely agree with you that there is no perfect bullet. Also agree with you on the North Fork bullet being close. I haven't experienced any failures with the TSX either so I've stayed with them instead of moving to the North Fork.

For my double rifles however, I've moved to the CEB BBW#13 Solids and Non-Cons. I had some trouble getting the TSX to regulate in my 9.3x74R with the scope mounted. The fact that the Non-Con and Solid are of the same dimensions lend themselves to both regulate with the same load and strike the same POI. Of course, the Non-Con performance is a completely new concept in expanding bullets, similar to the advancement made with the TSX or "X" bullet when it first hit the market. I've used the 9.3 Non-Con on Black Bear this past year with excellent results and I'm taking them to Zimbabwe next week for some of the really big stuff so we'll see how they work. From other's reports, that should be outstanding.

Probably any kind of bullet can "fail" or not work as expected under soem circumstances. The probabilities are higher with regular SP bullets and I think still higher with regular copper bullets than with premium conventional products like the Nosler Partition.

I think that the smaller the caliber and the lighter the bullet, the higher the remaining risk for failure.

I other words, if I use a 9.3 mm for regular European game like boar and red deer I will do very well with a normal SP bullets. If I use a .243 or 6,5 mm for the same kind of game, I'd use a NP or any other tough bullet like a TSX under any circumstances.

It seems that the new Barnes TTSX seem to increase the likelyhood to "work as expected" in comparison to the regular TSX which sometimes seem not to open up especially when not as fast.

I posted this on the Barnes Failure thread and I will repeat it here for those that may have missed it.

"I started using Nosler Partitions in my 270 in 1962. Since then, I have killed lirerally 100s of game animals ranging in size from Coues deer to Yukon moose with it. I mostly used the 150 grain NP in the 270 but also the 160 in the 7 mm Mag and the 270 in the 375 on leopard, kudu ,impala etc. Never had a bullet failure. It is my go to bullet and one that I have complete confidence in."

465H&H


Not long after Barnes came out with its original mono soft point the reports started to come in that some times they penciled through without opening. Barnes finally came out with the tipped version to increase the chance of the bullet opening. I wasn't impressed with those reports as I had no want to shoot deer/elk sized game with a solid. I tried them in my 270 and the bore fouling was bad. So I have never used them. I stuck with the Nosler Partition and have been perfectly satisfied with that decision.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
The problem here, as always, is how do you define "bullet failure"?

Does poor shot placement, poor choice of shot angle, poor choice of bullet for the job at hand, poor choice of bullet for the caliber and or expected impact velocity, justify the pronouncement of "bullet failure" because in someones opinion the bullet "juda, wooda, coulda" if it was just a (fill in the name of YOUR favorite bullet).

I agree Hunter. I love hearing these stories and seeing pics of people with dead animals and "failed" bullets. As I posted in another thread....120+ head of game seen personally killed with NP's, up to elk sized game, and zero problems. 100+ are mine.

Bullet Failure:

Is not:

Using a 223 on big game and blaming the bullet when something goes wrong... Just to say I've used a 223 on deer etc and with the right bullet, but you better bring your "A" game...

Using the wrong ammo/bullet with a perfectly good round for the game intended: 110gr TNTs are not good elk bullets even in a 300 Win Mag - maybe especailly in a 300 mag... 300gr in a 375H&H Barnes are probably not an optimum pick for small whitetails at long ranges, I'd lay money they pencil on a pure lung hit at 2 or 300 yds...

Not using the bullet as intended by manufacturer. Look at the bloody ads with the pictures of their super bullets at various ranges/velocities, if you are thinking 400 plus yards maybe you should get a bullet that might just expand at that range without having to hit a tree branch first... Conversely, if you're after elk in black timber with shots under 100 or even 50 yards Bergers may not be your best choice...

I my experience Nosler Partitions do one hell of a good job of trying to be all things to all hunters. But never over-estimate the ability or under-estimate the stupidity of anyone. Murphy's Law, Chaos and any other explainations of "why sh*t goes wrong" find lots of room to roam in the world of hunters and shooters.

NPs have never failed for me. They've accounted for a whole bunch of whitetail, waterbuck, bushbuck and impala. My only complaint about them is that they dont seem to be the most accurate of bullets out of any of my rifles. Plenty accurate for hunting, but the Accubonds hands down shoot better, at least out of my rifles.

When a Barnes fails you get a pinhole. I imagine if a Partition fails it over expands. I'll take the over expansion vs the under expansion every time. Lost one buck due to Barnes failure in one try. Never lost a Partition animal in over 100 hits. Every Partition I have recovered was exactly how I want it to look. But it is life and I am sure every bullet has an issue now and again. I just here more of the now from Barnes.

I have hunted almost exclusively with Nosler Partitions and Barnes TSX bullets. Some occassional use of FMJ's and various other premium bullets for specific purposes over the years, but I have absolute faith in the Nosler and Barnes.

Well over 150 head of game taken with the Nosler, and never seen a failure. Occasionally the rear core may start to squirt out after hitting very heavy bone as it came almost to rest, but these are still very dead animals, with massive wound channels.

I do shoot 75% Barnes bullets these days, and have over 100 kills with them. I love the deeper penetration, typically large wound channels, and excellent ballistics and accuracy. An all around improvement over the Nosler, in my opinion, but there is nothing wrong with the Nosler even today. I shoot both in everything from 243 to 416, and know they will both do the job if i use the right caliber for the job at hand, and do my part to place the bullet properly.
Bill

250 dead critters with these two bullets? Wow. You've obviously been at it a long time. When reading about these partition miscues and failures for lack of a better word....... I'm wondering how many people know exactly what a partition is designed to do upon impact. The partition has been the standard by which all others are judged for 60+ years for a reason.

Yes - I switched to 286gr partitions for my annual Swedish moose hunt having previously shot and killed moose with 232gr Norma Vulkan, 232gr Norma Oryx and 250gr Swift A frames in my 9.3x62. Only the 250gr A frame producing a one shot kill by virtue of the moose disappearing from view on being shot. The others stood still allowing multiple follow up shots from the buck fevered hunter (me).

Unfortunately the 286gr Partition was a complete failure. It produced no shot opportunities at all and was the most expensive bullet I have used to work up loads with as well as hurting my shoulder more.

I moved to the dark side and started using a 308 with Barnes ttsx. That produced a one shot kill but the holes looked small. I moved to 180gr partions and shot a moose but the bullet failed to take account of the range and hit a little low. It did kill the moose but failed to provide a nice specimen for photos here which I view as a vital part of the hunt.

They seem to work well at slightly lower velocitys. I saw a lot of meat damage in Magnums.

I don't know what they are designed for but from my experience performance has been excellent, almost perfect, with impact velocities of 2400-2600 fps

Any bullet can fail in someones eyes,because everyone has their own definition of failure.To me if the animal is dead,it worked as intended.

I've skinned my fair share of critters and I don't ever remember coming to the conclusion that a Partition had "failed". No question in my mind that they're a great bullet.

But I do think there is a double-standard when it comes to the definition of a "failed bullet". If a recovered Partition weighs 65% percent it's considered "normal performance", but if a Barnes loses petals and weighs 65% it's a catastrophic failure.