For interest's sake, how much is it to rent a horse?? Would they ever rent out a decent horse, or is it all walking dog-food?

Here, in British Columbia, you pretty much have to hire a "Packer", most of whom are not the sort of people I want to hunt with, or, you go on an "outfitted" trip with a Guide-Outfitter in his/her legal territory. I have done both and I am not that fond of either, plus, it is fairly pricey, especially for non-residents.

I have never heard of anyone actually renting out horses and it a lot of hassle to deal with them in the mountains, anyway. A skillful hunter-backpacker can hunt Elk, even Moose either solo or with a partner; it is hard work, but, if you plan each move right, it can be a lot of fun. If, you start to stress out or get too tired, you go home, it is all about fun, after all.

Boghossian,

SOME outfitters will rent horses to a group. In fact, my first horseback deer/elk hunt in 1965 in Colorado was such an affair. We brought all our own gear and food, then rented the horses for the entire week and packed into the San Juan Mts. near Durango, CO.

BUT...unless a least one guy knows how to saddle a horse and throw a decent diamond hitch on the panniers, one of these do-it-yourself trips can be a wreck waiting to happen. On some of the trails, it can be downright dangerous and possibly deadly and costly, too, if a rider or packhorse goes over the edge. Plus, taking care of horses in camp is a real pain unless there's plenty of food nearby and the horses hobble well.

I always suggest that guys who want to hunt the backcountry far from the roads yet not have to backpack with minimal gear use one of two options.

Hike in and have a packer bring in all your gear, or ride in with him and have him take the horses back down the mountain. Then when it's time to leave, he reverses the operation. He can also haul out any game for you.

Another option is a drop camp where the outfitter supplies the camp and the hunters supply the food. The rest goes as above, and they will often check up on you mid-hunt to see if there's any game down. In some cases, you can even designate the area where you want him to put the camp -- if you know the area, of course.

We did a lot of drop camps for groups in the Weminuche Wilderness when I was guiding in Colorado during the 1970s. These camps are a good way for experienced hunters to get away from the road hunters.

As for your question on the horses, there is no real answer because some are and some aren't. But generally, an outfitter will fit a mount to the rider's ability. In many cases, that ability ain't too hot. So they get the walking dog food.

My personal horse was a 12-yr.old grey Appaloosa mare that would let me and any kid ride her. But oddly, she very much disliked other adults on her. She was a good-size horse, but it might have been a weight thing anyway since I'm fairly lightweight, just as the kids were. -TONY

I can't really keep horses, anyway, as my pair of "handrubbed" purebred Rottweilers, male littermates, think that each and every horse is "walking dog food"!

Seriously, in much of the country I hunt, horses are more trouble than they are worth, it's too steep, too thick and horse food costs too much. Shank's mare is about the best option and I am just now reviewing my equipment to buy new gear to cut the weight of the camp I must carry.

Here at least, we don't have to worry about the strict regulations concerning pre-building of camps in the bush as they do in parts of the US. I have never had a problem with other hunters messing with my stuff, in fact, two weeks ago, for five days, I did not see anybody. I love quads and 4x4s because they actually leave more room for backpack hunters!

Horses are indeed a pain in the rear while hunting. I own my own and have access to transportation for them, but they are no doubt a hassle.

I do like the idea of being packed in and dropped off. It gets you into some remote country quickly and with the gear needed to survive some pretty harsh stuff.

Horses can put you into some pretty tough country and will go places you wouldn't think they could go. I've ridden horses over terain so steep I couldn't stand up myself. It makes for interesting riding and raises the blood pressure a little knowing a tumble could mean curtains for eigther you or your horse.

Chuck

Since we have brought up packs, boots,tents and the assorted other goodies needed for this, how bout a list of items you take for the above described hunt and the estimated weight of your pack when starting. Keep in mind, this is a hike in trip, no horses,ATV's.
For fun, lets say this is the first week of November at an elevation of 7500',hell at my condition just might take me all week just to get there

Alot of that depends on HOW far I am packing in, temps, terr., animal I am hunting (gear for dead game). Hell if I planned to hike in 100 yards from my truck for 7 days, I might even leave the pack in their





Elk, jimmy?

smallfry, yup lets say elk and 8 miles back in from the trail head. I have done several hunts like this, just wanting to see what some others pack that might be an improvement over my list.

Jeez, Jimmy, you must have been one of those U.S.M.C. Drill Sergeants I've heard about or a decendant of the Marquis de Sade!

This is too long and too far to backpack for an Elk, unless you have 3-4 guys in super shape, who are younger than you and I! I try to go for 3-5 day backpack hunting trips and even then, even a Mulie plus camping gear is one hell of a load.

I am going to give this some serious thought and give my thoughts tomorrow, after digging my vegie garden; I will be tired then and thus more in tune with what I really would take!

jimmyd:
Not to get into specifics as to the animal but rather to answer your question, I'll briefly describe what we do any time weight is a real consideration.
My tent is an MSR, 3 man design - top of the line.
For food we take MRE'S, the military ones, not the crappy civilian ones. Before leaving on the trip, we break the meal down to the main course & include the fruit, cake or whatever secondary "goodie" is enclosed. Breakfasts are 2 packets of instant oatmeal and lunches are granola bars, trail mix, jerky, etc. I make up a high energy bar consisting of honey, peanut butter, raisins & some other things. Since we are coffee freaks, each guy gets a zip lock bag of instant coffee. Each meal is placed in indiviual zip lock bags then the meals for each day are placed in a 1 gal. zip lock bag. Get up in the morning & grap a zip lock & you're set for the day. Each man has a spoon and an insulated metal coffee cup to eat out of. Rinse the cup out after use with hot water.

My stove is an MSR backpack stove which is very efficient and reliable and 3-4 bottles of fuel are all that would be needed. We also take a small sauce pan for each man for heating water & MRE's. Since we often hunt in very remote locations with no contact with civilization for perhaps 2 weeks at a time, high quality & reliability are uppermost in my mind. Your life can depend on your equipment.
Briefly, that sums up what we do. I would comment that we DO NOT use nor even consider freeze dried food. Personnaly, I think it tastes like crap, is too expensive, doesn't "stick with you", takes too much fuel to fix.
Anyway, hope this gives you some ideas. Some might consider the weight of the MRE's to be too much but we think they're worth it. Take care now, Bear in Fairbanks

I would not try such a trip now, I'm too old and gimpy due to injuries, my limit is 3-5 days max. I do this for enjoyment, I've packed enough hose carriers with reels of wet fire hose and monster loads on Trapper Nelson #3 torture racks, so, I ain't gonna work on that farm, no more.

Pack-Currently, I am using a "Bullpac" "Alaskan" and I use waterproof stuff sacks with homemade camo fleece covers to carry my gear. It is a superb pack, every bit as good as they say it is and very comfortable. Weight-6.5 lbs.

Shelter-Integral Designs "Unishelter", plus Moss tarp-3.5 lbs.

Sleeping System-Wiggy's "Kifaru" bag, "Thermarest" Reg.-4 lbs.

Food-homemade-2 lbs. per day+ 10 lbs. for 5 days

Clothing& Boots-Mountain boots, camo rain suit, camo long johns (top doubles as shirt) Browning sox(2 pr.) Fleece camo jacket, Micro-Tex pants. This weighs about 10 lbs. total.

First aid kit and hygiene-2lbs

Stove and pot-1 lb.

Nalgene bottles (2) with water if required-5 lbs.

Hunting kit, emergency gear and firestarter stuff-3 lbs.
This includes meatsacks, rope, knives, compass and all that stuff, no GPS or cellphone.-the weight varies a bit-3 lbs.

Custom Pre-64 .338 Mag.& ammo.-9.5 lbs.---I know, but, I am alone and there are a LOT of Grizzlies where I usually hunt and they like to pick on "old" guys who can't run fast!

total weight-39 lbs. depending on length of trip, this includes the clothing, most of which will be worn, not carried. The food weight is 6-10 lbs. total on top of this plus water if needed. I could go lighter by using freeze dried food, my ultra-light Feathered Friends "Great Auk" and using a lighter rifle. BUT, given that this is late season hunting and I go solo, I prefer the list given.

In order to compensate for not being as tough as I was 30 yrs. ago, I will and often do backpack supplies into a hunting area about two weeks before a given trip, this makes the actual hunting trip much easier.

Where "relay packing" is not possible, I will use freeze-dried foods and allow a longer pack-in-out period to get to where I want to go. I am currently re-building my rig to cut weight, but, it costs!

maybe this is a dumb question, but how do you get an elk out of a place so hard to get to that you have to pack like this?

Where I live and hunt, you must have emergency gear with you at all times; people die from exposure within sight of cities, so, it's not optional.

The trick is simply that, your rainsuit will work, with your clothing, as an emergency "bivi" if you go down while packing your meat out. So, you leave everything at a stash site close to your kill, keep only your first aid, rain suit and spare clothing and bone out your meat.

You then carry a pack out of about 75 lbs. total per time and I burn and bury-without a trace- any leftover foods, etc. and then I bring out my camp with the last sack of meat and I pre-arranged them to weigh differently in order to cope with this.

I have done this type of thing for 40 yrs., it is not easy and takes very careful planning, but, especially with pre-packing in supplies, it is do-able. A bull Elk will give you about 250 lbs. of boned out meat, so, you can figure that 4-6 trips are necessary, depending on your strength and the terrain.

This is also why I no longer even try to go for more than 5 days and prefer 3; I also do not have to go that far.If, I am not certain I can get the meat out, I do not shoot and I have passed up quite a number of big bucks and bulls over the years.However, in B.C., you cannot count on super-light flimsy gear and being able to start a fire if you are forced to bivy or are injured, so, you take what you actually do need and cope with the carrying, what else can you do?

Mikelravy,

Just as an illustration, but a person in good physical shape, with a 60 to 80 lb pack can cover 2 miles per hour, even on uneven terrain, if there is a semblance of a trail. Given that one of those legs is going in empty, and one is downhill, I usually end up doing an average of about 3 mph, or about 6 hrs per round trip. That's three legs per day. If you bone out your elk, you usually end up with 250 lbs of meat, so three round trips, or 18 hours worth of packing. Two days of hard (HARD work), but it's not that big a deal, provided you are in shape.

This assumes the elk is UPHILL from the truck, which is not always the case! I've done some 1500 ft climbs to get elk out, and it does slow you down quite a bit.

To be able to do this, my work out routine is to put a 70 lb pack on, put the treadmill to 10% and 3 mph, and I don't come off until I have covered three miles. It was easier when I was younger, however...... FWIW, Dutch.

Well maybe when I was younger. Now I have my doubts about my legs being up to it. I packed out a nice deer from an awful spot in 1974 and still remember how tired I was.

The two most crucial parts of this are attitude and planning.If, you go with the "macho" attitude, try and hump huge loads and move too far, too fast, you will fuck up, period.

If, you plan your trip, cache supplies, watch the weather, use bear poles to cache meat- in appropriate bags and go with the natural flow, it is hard work, but, very rewarding in emotional terms.

This is why I will, depending on circumstances, carry smaller loads and with my emerg. stuff, I am not overloaded and thus in danger of a fall, sprain or coronary. One of the good things about this country, tough as it is, is the fact that it gets cold in the high country and meat will keep for a few days-if hung in the shade. So, it is now up to you, the Elk are waitin.......

Attitude is important, but not as important as physical conditioning.

I agree that the emotional reward of doing this is great, indeed, but the greatest reward is that if you find the right spot, you will have a piece of heaven all to yourself. If you look, you can find spots that are too far in for the foot hunters, and too close for the horse hunters, leaving it all to the "dedicated nuts".

As a side note, if you take time in the summer to build some lean-to's, improve some springs, and make some other general preparations, it really helps improve your comfort level on this type of hunt. Lately, we'll put camp at the "end of the road", and make day trips in to prepared camp sites. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch
I did some of that on my backpack hunts when I was younger and certainly some of those trips were spectacular. I wish I could do it again but time and old age makes it unlikely. The good news is now I can afford to go by boat and have a truck, which I didn't then so maybe it balances out.

Jimmy-Even in my younger years I wouldn't back pack in that far.Now I'm old and surely wouldn't.With weather conditions as they are sometimes here in Idaho like last year,It's just to hot the first part of October to try to get the meat out by foot that far in a timely way.Something like that would be fun without worrying about meat spoilage tho.I have never back packed anywhere for anything and always thought it would be fun now.After working all week in the woods,thats the last thing you want to do on your days off.

Best of luck..Jayco.

I had pretty much taken physical condition as a given, but, Dutch is right, it is crucial as I just found out on a trip for five days last week. I see attitude and conditioning as part of a whole approach to the game, one helps the other.

Dutch's point about prepared campsites is much the same as mine about caches; I do this and have three new spots picked out for this July, this really helps and gives you the ability to have a few more "goodies" in camp.

I am fortunate as encounters with other people are very rare in B.C. hunting and the few who I have met are other hunters. It's cold enough here that meat care is quite easy, but, the relatively remote aspect of the landscape means that you cannot skimp on survival gear.

I fully expect to backpack until I am pushing 80, I have known a number of guys that have; it's just the staying in shape when homemade pie is around that I find difficult!

80 is a lofty goal! I do this with my 60 some year old father-in-law, and he's sometimes hard to keep up with. He doesn't carry a full pack with meat anymore, but since I am 6'5" and 240 lbs, I'm built to handle a little more of the load. Between the two of us, we still can take an elk out in two trips. The last one weighed 267 lbs of meat, plus the horns. That was work, but he was only a couple miles in. Out by 3:30 PM (that included cutting him off the bone).

My father in law has been talking a lot about horses, lately. Maybe that's a hint? LOL! Dutch.

Geez this thread is depressing me. Think I'll go outside and kiss my packhorse.

Actually, I have used horses, but, I do this for the thrill of it because nothing is quite as fulfilling to me as getting an animal and getting it out, solo. Of course, I don't get that many due to the constraints of terrain, age, distance and all that, but, I just don't enjoy guided packtrain hunts and cannot use much meat, anyway, as my wife and I have no offspring.

You are damned near big enough to carry the Elk out solo, in one trip! That is what I need, a good partner, but most guys here in their '50s will NOT hike more than a half mile from the vehicle, so, I go alone.

I don't know if I will make it to 80, but, I ain't gonna quit until I damned well can't walk!

kutenaymtnboy,



Yup, some of BC is not really horse country. I've hunted north of Prince George a couple times, and it is quite thick except for the numerous clear cuts.



In contrast, I did a horseback hunt for moose/caribou several years ago in the northern part, just south of the Yukon border near Liard Hot Springs, and it was a great area for it because it's mostly tundra-like terrain. It was just my Slavey indian guide and me, with our saddle horses and two pack horses. We basically camped in a different place every night for 9 days in miserable weather. -TONY

I had some dude drive into our camp last fall ( we had camped by the road and were day tripping back in each morning) and beg us to use our horses to retrive his elk. He had shot a small 5 point 7 miles back in and after packing the head/horns out didn't have the energy to go back for the meat.

My horses were beat after 4 straight days of multiple trips each day of hauling me and friends around and packing our elk out. I wasn't impressed that he had made no plans on how to get his kill out prior to hiking 7 miles in. Besides the point that he brought the horns out first and left the meat.

I bought horses 7 years ago when I got tired of packing deer & elk out on my back. They cost me a lot of money each year. And they do take some time away from hunting to care for them in the back country. But I throughly enjoy my time spent with them. And my hunting success has improved dramatically.

Yes, horses have both advantages and disadvantages, kinda like owning a boat to go fishing. The other day on returning home from the lake, an almost new trailer tire went to shreds on me. The good news was we had caught some fish.

You're dead on about the dude who doesn't plan ahead if he kills game. Packing out the meat from even a boned-out elk from 7 miles in isn't a fun experience. -TONY

When we were younger we had a rule we went by when hunting moose and elk."Shoot it where you see it.We'll get it out later".We always managed to get the animal out although some of our backpacking episodes were physically draining to the max.One days rest though and we we ready to go again.We would tromp through the woods of northern BC for miles.(With the addition of GPS it turns out that the miles were less than we thought though!)
Today,at ages 63,57,and 46,having suffered collectively from broken arms,legs,ankles, and ribs,seperated shoulders,and even heart valve replacement(in addition to aging),the same rule rings true except that we've had to add the following."Go as far as you want but make damn sure that you're near a trail when you shoot or you're on your own"The result last year was 4 moose(we had a fourth hunter with us last year) ON the trail Elk aren't quite so accomodating but then they're a lot smaller and we usually have a downhill pack with them.We can still handle them if we have to!
Dave

David,



Having a few guys to help certainly helps, even if they are ol' farts. At nearly 63, I no longer get a kick out of such escapades, though. Of course, IF I had to do it, I would find a way. I just try to avoid putting myself in that situation, which wasn't always the case when I was in my 20s and filled with piss & vinegar. I recall having to bone out a good mulie I had killed on the North Kaibab here in AZ and make three trips of several miles to camp. The distance wasn't too bad, but the canyon he died in was a killer. See below. It's a scan of a print that's 40 years old. -TONY

NICE BUCK!!!
Dave

I have packed a few of those "Mowitch" in my day and in snow over my knees out of Grohman Creek Canyon near Nelson, B.C.; this is about 300 ft. deep and nearly perpendicular. Then, it was only about 4-5 miles in the snow down the old logging road to Kootenay Lake, into a boat and up the lake, in the dark, to town. We would sometimes get three bucks on Saturday and have them home by Sunday night.

For some reason, I am a bit slower at this than I was then, 40 yrs. ago. Now, I am still good, so, I think that the anti-hunter, pinko commies are somehow making the mountains steeper. BTW, for anyone interested, "Mowitch" is an old Siwash" term, meaning Mule Deer. "Siwash" is an Indian.

kutenaymtnboy,



Perhaps you noted the rubber boots I have on. There were a couple inches of snow up on top where I had started earlier in the day. As I worked down to the canyons from the ponderosas, it pretty much disappeared.



David,



This is what he looks like today on my wall with his mate -- a doe, which was my son't first deer when he was 10. He just turned 42 two days ago. -TONY