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| one of us |
I saw a guy a few weeks ago driving down the road in a shiny 1957 Chevy. What a moron! Everybody knows that the new Hondas and Toyotas can out-handle that old dinosaur, and do it with a lot less fuel, incorporating the latest in fuel injection technology.... Somebody needs to tell that guy that this is the 21st century! The new ones just work a lot better! I don't look forward to the day when my medicine cabinet contains Viagra and my rifles have to have the word "Ultra" on the barrel to boost my self-esteem... Rick. INCOMING!!! | |||
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| <Juneau> |
rick3foxes, Can you imagine that guys like Jay Leno actually collect those old piles of steel?! Who in their right mind would want to be seen driving around in something like a 1930 Dusenberg J? | ||
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| <JerrBear356> |
Apples and Oranges. The truck has an aesthetic appeal that a new truck doesn't which is not the case with ammunition. Calibers do not make fashion statements. But as far as performace is conserned a new silverado with a big desiel in it is going to be able to tow more than that old junker(assuming original parts and no modern modifications). If you were to compare ammo to cars, then the closest comparison would be racing. You put a F1 car from the '50s up against a new one and Schumacher will win every day of the week. OH and when was the last time you were able to buy a new '57 chevy, try 55 years ago. That is the way it should be with the ancient calibers. And by the way the young people are the ones tending to by the Ultras, not the old farts. Most of the people with the 30'06s are the old bucks, but they tend not to be the ones buying new 30'06s, those people tend to be next generation of old bucks (the 30 and over crowd). At least my father isn't nieve enough to think that those old calibers are better. He uses the .300 SAUM for deer and has a .30-.378wby improved for long range hunting (antelope and such). Don't get me wrong, I used a .270win for several years, but that was before the SAUM and the WSM came out; and I still have a gun chambered in 30'06 you might have heard of it. It is called an M1 Garand they used it in WW2. Jerry | ||
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| One of Us |
You know, Jerr, I'm sure you are a fine fellow...as are the others jumping on this thread. But I can't think of a better way to start a fight than coming in and shouting, my team can beat your team, or my country is better than your country, or my Ford will outrun your Chevy, or....well, you get the idea. And while people sit here and argue about Utra this and Magnum that, the woods are full of thousands of guys with old scratched up 30/30s...most of them dragging out a fresh deer kill. Hell fire, the bottom line is all these guns will kill. And one dead deer or bear is about as dead as the next. None of them knew or cared what hit them. I think guns are a personal thing. I don't want any of you picking out my clothes or my after shave or my guns. And I doubt you want me picking yours. Everyone should wear what makes them feel comfortable. Everyone should hunt with what they trust and feel capable with. Whatever cartridge one of us can name, someone can likely name one that will go a couple feet faster or has a few extra ft/lbs of energy. Big deal. Truth is it don't make a flip. My deer will be as dead as yours and will taste just as good and vice versa. (And I haven't even told you what I shoot...cause it don't matter.) So why don't we all spare ourselves one of these senseless arguments about rifle preferences. It's all a personal thing, ain't it? Shucks, if you dig the new Ultras, then by doggies I think you should have one and I wish you happy trails with it! Besides, Jer, if these new Ultra-whatevers are as great as you say, in a few years all the "lesser cartridges" should be gone and in museums. But I wouldn't bet on it! For years people have been trying to bury guns like the 30/30, the 45/70 and lots of others. It just don't work. The 30/30 is about as strong as ever and the 45/70 is GAINING popularity! (Who would have thought?) As for shoveling dirt on the 30/06 or 270... Now come sit down and let me buy you a beer. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Thanks, Pecos... I guess we need to be more tolerant of the next generation. They're inclined to favor the newest, and the fastest. I'm still waiting for someone like Ray to challenge his statement, "It is called an M1 Garand they used it in WW2." And reply, "Wrong, little guy. *WE* used it in WW2. And what were you saying about dinosaurs?" | |||
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| One of Us |
Let me add one last quick thought here that you won't understand, Jerry, because you simply aren't old enough and don't have the historical perspective. But you will someday  For the first few years of my shooting career, I kind of thought like you. Then I finally ended up with one and danged if it wasn't FUN to shoot and hunt with. Sure the action was clunky. Sure the bullet was slow. Sure the trajectory sucked. THAT was what made it so danged much FUN. That old obsolete dog made ME have to hunt a little harder, made ME have to be a little better and think out my shots more carefully. I enjoyed the hell out of it! I don't have a 30/30 currently, but I'm getting REAL nostalgic again. In fact, I'd like to go back to the old .35 Remington this time. I guess what I'm saying to you, my young friend, is not everything that looks like progress really is. I don't doubt for a second the features about the new rifles you are so excited about. I'm just saying that when the campfire has burned down to embers...it won't matter. These things the Ultra's etc have to offer us don't mean anything. Technically there may be some hair's width advantage, but we don't hunt for technicalities. We hunt for sport, for fun, for relaxation and for the challenge...and the new Ultras add NOTHING to that. This is why I sit here and say, "It don't matter." The old guns will always be here and scads of people will fight for the priviledge to hunt with them. Someday you will to. Someday you'll lay aside your new Ultra and pick up your old 270 and think, "Man I had some great hunts with this old rascal! I want to try it again." Why do you think archery is a growing sport? ------------------ | |||
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| <JerrBear356> |
I made this topic in order to ruffle some feathers. I know that these calibers will still be around. They have been out forever and they have always worked. I have noticed from being around many hunting and shooting fanatics that some want the latest thing, some want what has been tried and trued, and some feel that "the end justifies the means" or it doesn't matter along as the animal dies. I am new to this forum, but I read a lot of comments and noticed that a lot of people like these "battle" proved cartriges because they know they work and are common. I agree with Pecos statement about choosing for yourself, however, I want everyone to make the most educated choice and that is one of the reasons this forum exists. I am not saying that everyone should take my word as the word of god, but I think everyone should take a little something from each person and form your own opinion on the subject based on your experiences and experiences of others' in which you can relate. For as much as I have bashed and written sarcastically about calibers like the 30'06, I feel that it was one of the greatest calibers created, and because it was so great it was widely used and still used today. I realize that we have hit a pinnicle in gun technology, sure there are better calibers being created, but the old ones will still kill. What I was fighting was that with these new short action magnum calibers, the guns are now able to weight less and have less barrel yet still get the same accuracy and power. I don't know about you but I like to have my guns weight a little as possible and still be fun to shoot, because I would rather be walking up and down mountains all day long with a 6lbs gun than a 8lbs gun. It eventually adds up. And to comment on Rick's statement talking about the language I used when describing the M1 Garand I would like to say, I never used M1 in WW2 because I wasn't alive back then, the they refers to the soldiers fighting the war. If I were fighting I would have used we, because I could say "We used the M1 throughout the war, we used them to kill Japanesse and Nazi soldiers." But because I wasn't there I would say "They used the M1 throught the war, they used them to kill Japanesse and Nazi soldiers." Got that Rick. Jerry | ||
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| <JerrBear356> |
I still use the old "smoke stick" every once in a while because it is a different season than rifle up here in Pa. And I can see archery growing in popularity, but you must realize even though some people use longbows and recurves most use compound bows with carbon arrows. I know I do. And yeah, I can see myself using a 30/30 (In a lever action not bolt) I am sure it would make a great woods gun. And there is NO WAY I would shoot a RUM in a lever action because the rounds in the tube would go off after I shot the darn thing. | ||
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| one of us |
Relax, JerrBear... You missed my point. I was just referring to the fact that we've probably got a few geezers on here that COULD say "*WE* used it in WW2!" No, I'm not that old either... BTW, I don't have an ounce of resentment for some of the new cartridges. I have a .300WinMag that I bought for elk hunting a few years back. If I had to replace it today, it would be a .300WSM. But I don't consider myself handicapped because my magnum isn't short, either... Rick. [This message has been edited by rick3foxes (edited 05-10-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Ya jerrbear,you put everything into context for us. I agree totally,a guy really needs a magnum to hunt antelope on up to moose. Hell most of your shots are under 300 yards and connecting with an 06 is just plain difficult. Not to mention,the hairy bastards are all wearing soft body armor now days. Thanks for the thread jerrbear this topic needed discussing. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think your points are well taken, Jer. When I was your age I got so excited about new cartridges coming out I almost wet myself. The idea of some of these new cartridges and especially the actions to go with them IS exciting stuff in the gun world and will cause a flurry of new wildcat cartridges. So it's a fun time. And interesting. I'll buy that. You have to forgive some of us guys who've been around awhile or aren't into the new gun a week program. We've seen it all enough before that it doesn't raise our blood pressure like it does a younger shooter like you. So don't let us spoil your fun. Shoot, I wish I were young enough to get excited about it with you! There were LOTS of cartridges available as I was growing up and old. Now there's even more. 99% of them really don't add up to anything truely new or useful in the final analysis...but no one can say our "candy store" isn't well stocked with goodies! Enjoy it and hunt safely. ALL of these toys will bite. And always remember: ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Excellent responses to the statements, however, brash and loud. JUJUBEAR- I totally disagree with the statement that "performance" is what its all about. What end of the trajectory are you inferring, as it takes the skill and patience to put the bullet there, not just muzzle sts ou of a chart. I also think that those of us that use the "traditional" calibers do so because they provide us with a fleeting connection to hunters past that were in places we will never be and are now gone, such as W Page, B Hagel and J OConnor, G Fitz. I might add that they kill game very well as well. Lets talk performance in the real world. In my 270 My load was near max for the 4350 powder so I assume 3000 f/s. After using it for 10 years(check my link) I chronod it at 2850 f/s. I guess just because my load was below 3000f/s that all those deer came back to life eh? I suggest that you accept that there are many reasons to own a given caliber, and they may be even sounder than your techno-schmear info quoted from gun rags. BR [This message has been edited by Battle River (edited 05-11-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
I like the new calibers and the old calibers the more the merrier. Just gives another reason to may be build or buy another. Short mags long mags are all good. I have more 06's then anything esle but that didn''t stop me from buying new 300 win mag. Nor a new 308 win target gun. I do most of my woods hunting with a 99 sav. 300 sav. why I have newer faster bigger ect. Why I like it because my dad killed over 200 deer with his. That dosen't stop me from wacking one now and then with my 338 or 257 or what ever. Bring them all on the one I have in my hands at the time is the one I like. | |||
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| one of us |
I probably won't be around to see it, but wouldn't it be interesting to see the WSMs and other "Ultra" mags defended in, say, 2020? You know, when the latest thing comes out. I've been using the 300 WSM for 20 years and can't see any point in changing..." Most of the shooters on this and other boards are very aware of the new stuff. There's just no point in it for some of us. Pat the Ad men on the back for doing such a great job of proving that 30/30s, 30/06s etc are anemic lightweights with little value. I don't see a use for any magnum, but that's because they're not needed were I hunt. Others do need them, and that's fine. I guess you can never have too many rifles, but all of my recent acquisitions are older cartridges in modern actions. Safe Shooting! | |||
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| <EricT55> |
I am new to this post so feel free to yell at me if I say anything stupid. Being a good friend of Jerry's I can say that he is a large fan of having the newest and best of everything (especially guns). We have talked about the new caliber�s many times but for whatever reason I am still a big fan of rounds such as the 30-06, 300win and 375H&H. I know companies are producing faster rounds that can now be chambered in short actions, but I do not think that the other rounds should be discredited in the least. Like pecos said, they all do the job and my dead dear is no different than your dead dear. After hunting in Africa this summer, I would also like to bring up the point of the availability of these new calibers over seas. I almost ran into this problem myself when the bag we had all of our rifle rounds in, got lost in the Joeberg airport. We had a 330 Dakota, a 338 ultra, and a 375 H&H with us. Now I am not saying I do not like the concept of the new rounds. I have one (the 338 rum) and it shoots great, but what I learned is that the 06 or the 375H&H will do the same job with one added bonus of being able to obtain rounds in foreign countries. Everyone had a 30-06 and a 375 in Africa. They must be doing something right considering they are pretty much the only caliber�s used on the most dangerous big game in the world. Thanks guys� Eric | ||
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| one of us |
quote: Is that a misspelling or a freudian slip? | |||
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| <allen day> |
I'll stick with the old, ready-for-the-junkpile cartridges you listed just the same, but thanks for your illuminating insights! AD | ||
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| <JerrBear356> |
It isn't a slip at all. I don't know anyone who likes Eric's girlfriend. | ||
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| <leo> |
And I just had a 7x57 custom made up for me; what will I do! Oh, that's right; I love it! | ||
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| one of us |
JerrBear356: The .30-06 is not "still being used today," but instead it probably is the most popular big game cartridge in the US. I know Alaska's population is not very large, but the following will give you an idea of what people think of the .30-06 up here: This is from the NRA's January 2001 issue, American Hunter: "The Alaska Department of Fish & Game hunter safety staff in Anchorage tallied the big game rifles sighted at the Rabbit Creek rifle range for the 1999 hunting season. The top three cartridges were the .30-06 (21%), .300 Win. Magnum (19%), and the .338 Win. Magnum (18%). These were followed by the 7mm Rem. Magnum (9%), .375 H&H Magnum (6%), .270 (6%), .308 (4%), and .300 Wby. Magnum (4%), .45-70 (1%), .280 (1%), and a host of others, including many wildcats. Comparable data are not available for hunters who live in the bush." | |||
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| One of Us |
quote: Good to have your thoughts and observations Eric! Welcome to the arena. The reason you will almost universally find ammo for the 30/06 and 375 is because these two cartridges are legendary. And in the gun world, when a cartridge achieves THAT status....it's here to stay and immortal so long as we have any gun powder to make them work. Personally, I'm glad to see you and Jerrbear coming along the trail behind us. You guys be careful and never think you know it all and you'll be the next generation of super hunters. Just don't take the HUNT out of hunting and you'll have a rich life. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I am of the opinnion that all the "new stuff" that the Germans and English made in 1920, by the way, and they rejected them. is just that, hype and bean counters grabbing for your dollar. The bean counters misrepresent velocity, trajectory and a host of other things plus the simple fact that the human animal being approximately 175 pounds of quivering nerve, pumping blood, sucking air like a bellows, cannot take advantage of much more than what we already shoot and even if one could it would not be a sporting proposition. A bigger shame is there is not a single commercial made rifle on the market today that I would have, and I know a bunch of others that agree with me on this, Jack Belk, Bill Dowtin, Bill Harvey to name a few. Quality control has gone to hell in a hand basket and production methods designed to make money have gone to plastics, aluminum, stampings such as detach mag. boxes and a whole array of plain old crap, and the end results is multiple failures.... Nope, I will stay with the good 98 Mausers, Win. pre 64 M-70's, and even the pre 64 Win. M-94 and Sav. M-99s....the old guns are better and that's all their is to it and anyone that thinks differents is sorely misinformed, and lacks a through knowledge of guns.....So there ya go! ------------------ | |||
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| <JerrBear356> |
The reason the 30-06 and the 375 are popular in Africa is because it has been out forever! I bet you aren't going to find the latest calibers or many wildcats there because they are way behind the times. I don't know about you guys but if a buffalo was charging me, I would rather a .375 RUM than an H&H mag. And who is Eric to talk he used a .338RUM most of the time and didn't even touch a 30-06 or .375H&H for hunting down there. P.S. Eric is real sensitive about his girlfriend and spelling. | ||
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| <MontanaMarine> |
I think the gunmakers will still sell more 30-30s, .270s, and 30-06s than any of the newer cartridges, regardless of performance improvements. Why not? If it ain't broke, don't fix it......... MM [This message has been edited by MontanaMarine (edited 05-12-2002).] | ||
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| <JHook> |
Personaly I like the old dinosaurs. Then again I always listened to my Elders with respect, well, almost always. Maybe rifles are the same way. Then again I love sitting with a Bow, or hunting with an old sidelock smokepole. Shooting a 7x57, .270, or 3006 may not be as retro but , well, somehow the hunt is better when handleing a cartridge with some history to it. And I cant explain this either, but somehow the meat tastes better, and the sun goes down nicer, with an old veteran in your hands. I cant explain it.........but its true.....................J ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
That's funny jerrbear,eric said you're his bitch. | |||
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| <EricT55> |
Thanks for the kind words pecos. It�s nice to feel welcome. Just to follow up on Jerry�s comment calling me a hypocrite because I use primarily the 338 rum in Africa. In my first post I acknowledge this fact and said that although it worked great with no complaints, I did realize that if our luggage was permanently lost we would not have been using those guns. I�m not saying I wouldn�t bring them back. Everyone in Africa seemed to love the caliber and its power, but I just felt I should add another point of consideration to the table. Thanks again ET | ||
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