Fist I would like to say that I hunt for meat and where I get to hunt I don’t always get a shot at a large deer let alone a big buck.

I took 2 Button Bucks (about 120lbs each) with my Rem 300 Win Mag. The first on Wednesday Nov 30 at 144 yards, the other on Sat Dec 3rd at 155 yards. Both were Bang Flop, on the 1st and 2nd deer I aimed behind the shoulder and ¼ the way down. I hit right 4 inches and through the spine on the 1st, and the other I hit right 4 inches and ¼ the way down from the top. It was cold and I was excited possibly causing the slight miss on each deer.

I was happy with the performance of the 150gr TSX bullets. Each went it 30 caliber and came out about the size of your fist. The second deer was a double lung shot, the lungs were turned to liquid, and when we picked up the deer the blood gushed out of the exit wound.

I know that a 300 Win Mag is probably overkill on deer this size but I also try to get an instant kill so the deer doesn’t suffer, and with a bad right knee I don't care for the tracking process.

The 150 grain Barnes TSX bullets were a winner and I am very pleased with there performance and accuracy.

The wife made some great tasting venison chili and teriyaki jerky

A Very Merry Christmas to all and a happy New Year.

Wow, they were 120 pounds each? That's big for a BB, our corn fed Michigan BB's are only about 75 to 80 pounds on the hoof right now. What do you feed them in Kansas?

Agreed Ann!


Hey Swede,

You sure that scale is right! That's really big for a "button" buck! ours avg. 55 to 65 pounds

Good going there. That extra speed with a 150 in 300 Win will definitely create massive shock waves on entry.
I just made up a big pot of deer chili to take to the camp this weekend. Those TSXs do a great job. I had 3 nice kills already.
Good luck on the next trip.

Aspen Hill Adventures:

Ann I did say about 120 pounds I don't have a deer scale and the guy that helped me put the last one on the truck guessed the weight. There are a lot of wheat & maize fields where the deer were harvested. The guy said maybe he messed up not taking one of the big does he let walk by.

I was hoping for a lot bigger deer but any deer is better tasting that a deer permit. I have been skunked too many times in the past to get to picky about the deer I am willing to take. Maybe one day that humongous steroid consuming deer will walk into my sites.

How do you tell a button buck from a doe at 150 yards from a side view? I thought they were both does until I got close enough to see the buttons.

I guess I am going to have to get a deer scale to weigh them with before field dressing to get a better perspective on how much they weigh.

What I wanted to point out was that the Barnes 150 TSX did a great job.

The button bucks (yearling does too) will have kind of a short snout. Year and a half and older does will have a longer snout and neck. If you have a yearling deer next to an adult doe you can see the difference pretty easy. Next time you see a group of deer in a field driving along stop and take a look - keep your bino's handy.

Here is a link to Michigans DNR site on identifying button bucks. They do a better job then my dribble previously posted. Hope this helps.


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10905-29622--,00.html

Clem:
Thanks for the link; my depth perception is not worth a darn. I can look at a deer and without owning a range finder it is hard to tell just how far away or how big a deer is. Since I hunt for meat and am not too concerned about deer with big racks I usually shoot what I see, but I would still like to get a big deer vs a small one.

Considering I hunt on public hunting land and a lot of jerks like to stomp through as fast as they can every bit of the good hunting areas early in the morning most of the time before there is enough light to see thinking they are going to slip up on a deer. And just because it is legal to hunt 30 min before sunrise and 30 min after they think it gives them the right to screw it up for everyone else. One of my hunting friends shot 2 deer and did not recover either. He was complaining about walking and pushing the deer my direction because I was able to make a clean kill. I practice a lot and have spent a lot of time working up loads that are accurate. I can’t help if he can’t kill and only cripple what he shoots most of the time. If he practiced more and talked less maybe he could be more successful.

Sorry if I got off track and started to rant but the hunt always happens the same way every year.

I did not know that button bucks travel alone.

Public land with heavy pressure can be that way. The MDNR site claims that button bucks travel alone but I don't know about that. I have often seen them mingling with other deer. Once you spend some time watching them - you will be able to better i.d. a yearling deer even if it is alone. I think it is good practice to let little bucks go - they can't become big bucks if they get shot when they are little.

Man you must be proud. Learn to tell a doe from a BB BEFORE you trip the trigger. Another one from the "if its brown its down" camp.

quote:

Originally posted by AEI:
Man you must be proud. Learn to tell a doe from a BB BEFORE you trip the trigger. Another one from the "if its brown its down" camp.

Sounds like an insult to me. Are you sure your not an anti-hunter.

No I'm anti-stupidity. Your not seeing any decent bucks in your area because morons like you drop two yearlings and are not smart enough to tell the difference between a doe and a button buck. I can understand the subsistance hunter who shoots small animals but the guy that drops game not even knowing what sex it is the anti. Your killing your own hunting. Then top it all off with you are pleased with your ballistic performance on bambi. JEEEEZ.

Button bucks are often alone, since once the rut starts, a mature buck won't tolerate them being around a doe and run them off. Consequently they are often wandering around in pairs and sometimes collect another pair, all the same age. A doe fawn will be allowed to stay with the old doe and buck. These small groups of button bucks are dumb as hell and easy to shoot, if you look in hunter's trucks, most of the fawns killed are button bucks, they are run off, no old doe to help keep them alive. I do agree that killing these is one of the worst things you can do to your tropy quality.

BUTTON BUCKS ARE NOT YEARLINGS, they are fawns! ANY deer less than a year old is NOT a vearling, it is a fawn. A deer or ANY animal more than one, but less than two years old is a YEARLING, don't believe me, look it up. I think this started, because someone somewhere preferred to call what they were shooting yearlings instead of fawns.
Button bucks are actually pretty easy to pick out if you know what to look for, they get chased away by their mother or other bucks when the rut starts and tend to wander around alone and they have that short nosed "puppy" look to them. Just about any deer that isn't a mature buck and is alone is around the rut has a good chance of being a bb.

That is true, button bucks are not yearlings but fawns - my bad. The fawns really are not too difficult to distinguish.

Actually, the density of larger "trophy class bucks" has very little to do with selection pressure from hunters. Kill all the button bucks you want it wont matter--- nutrition quality and water content in the primary food source is a far greater predictor of (and the term is ambiguous) trophy class bucks---this is often mistaken for older age class bucks---not the same thing!

IV

Idaho Vandal

That will be true in the mountain states, but not in Kansas and Missouri. Our winter kill or loss due to low quality food in the corn belt is essentially zero. In other words, food and water is not a problem in farm country. Also, for some of the rest, if the guy is a meat hunter and is on his own place, it's not our place to tell Swede he's a dumb ass for shooting fawns, it's his decision. On our place, it's known up front by anyone hunting that we don't kill any bucks under the 140 class, it's our decision. As far as identifying a fawn, it's always obvious to me to look at the tail a fawn's tail always looks twice as big in comparison to its body than a doe.

Yup your right. If its his private property then its his choice. If its State land then it effects everyone hunting. Nutrition, genetics and water won't mean squat if there are no bucks to grow up. I guess I just take exception to someone slapping themself on the back for ballistic performance on a couple of fawns. I have no problems with guys that hunt just for meat.

Until one understands the local situation, IMO, it's best to withhold judgement. (walk a mile in my shoes, etc.) And AEI, IMO, you came on a little strong, not knowing all the facts. But why would it matter whether it's private or public land. In Texas, and I assume other states, deer belong to the people, not the landowner. (Spoken by a landowner).

Yup I agree. Like I said I just hate to see someone blast off on fawns and then slap themself on the back. I dont care what state your from you should darn well know the difference between a BB and a doe BEFORE you pull the trigger.

quote:

Kill all the button bucks you want it wont matterIV

So if we kill all the button bucks, we will have the same number of big bucks, hmmm, hows that happen? It DOES matter, thats why we have places with hugely lopsided sex ratios. YOU may not see that button buck again due to the normal dispersal, but if all your neighbors think that it makes no difference if you kill all the button bucks, then NOBODY will be seeing mature bucks.

If you ever figure that one out please explain it to me.

Is shooting 2 BB's illegal? I assume not.

He stated in his first sentence that he is a meat hunter. What's wrong with that? He's not trying to hide anything.

But I'll bet he'll have second thoughts about being truthful in his next big game hunt report less he be castigated for shooting younger than trophy-class buck.

He put meat on his family's table. That's the bottom line.

Congrats Swede44mag. It's good to hear of another successful kill using those great Barnes bullets.

Without making it personal I try to encourage hunters to let the little ones go. Our buck/doe ratio is way off so my contention is - if you want meat try to shoot a doe. In the end I don't know that it really makes a big difference other than the fact that the buck/doe ration is so far off in our area.

Maybe in some very limited situations, but not in the Western States. In terms of population, killing a male fawn has the least amount of impact:

* Winter kills are 50 to 70% on fawns
* Does have reproductive lives of about 8 to 10 years
* Buck to doe ratios less than 7 do not affect total production

Add it up, and it simply means that killing a few male fawns simply means more does in the population, which means the bucks will be replaced soon enough. Little bucks are biologically disposable... JMO, Dutch.

Dang if hes a meat hunter he would certainly do a lot better shooting even 1.5 year old does. Even one mature doe would yield more meat than two BB.

Explain it to you? OK.

loboga touched on the "explanation" very slightly. Its about dispersal. Most whitetail females have a well defined home range in which they spend a majority of their time. Males on the other hand tend to occupy areas more dependent upon density of available cover rather than on food availability. This partitioning occurs as a result of the nutritioinal needs of the females during gestation and lactation whereas the greatest nutritional needs of males is dring antler development. Thus males and females typically are only found together during the rut--in most cases other times of the year mature males are seperate from the females (their are exceptions of course). Young males (button bucks as we are calling them here) tend to remain with the mother until they reach 1 1/2- 2 1/2 years of age and then they begin the process of roaming and staking out territory that meets their nutritional needs. On average in any population or metapopulation the age class distribution tends to be skewed toward young thus the number of "button bucks" found in a given local population is not a very good indicator of future age classes because most of them will disperse. Now, as was eloquently stated above "if your neighbor thinks the same way.......then no one will see mature bucks" or something to that affect. Again, the question then becomes whether the "killing of the button bucks" becomes additive or compensatory to the number of mature bucks in the population. There is a misconception that bucks grow up and stay where they live-- not usually. Good habitat to be a fawn in and good habitat to live long enough to become a mature buck in are two quite different things.

Certainly I would never argue that if you own your own land and you want to manage it a certain way--thats your perogative of course! But don't be misled. The blanket statement made above was:

"Your not seeing any decent bucks in your area because morons like you drop two yearlings and are not smart enough to tell the difference between a doe and a button buck"

That statement is dead wrong.

Seeing decent (I'll assume you mean mature males with large, healthy antlers) bucks in a local are has little if any positive correlation to the number of male fawns in an area.

IV

I've hunted in areas with high hunting pressure...where there are more hunters than deer. One hunter passing on a button buck helps the deer population not at all, 'cause the next hunter will take 'em. And you've lost your meat. It's all very well to say, "let 'em grow", or "shoot a doe", but that opportunity may be very unlikely. Coming from a big proponent of QDM: Before you pass judgement: understand the local situation...

I think things are a whole lot different in your neck of the woods. I'm not looking for any argument but if everyone or a considerable number of anterless deer tag holders kill BB then certainly the male population will be out of balance weather the fawns have a higher mortality rate or not. In fact I agree with you completely that they do. Predators here are real hard on fawns, add winter etc and we loose a lot. Add the guys who shoot BB and every year we go backwords. I am not talking about raising trophy bucks but wouldnt it be nice to hunt once again and regularly be able to fill a tag with at least a 2.5 year old?olarmy I hear ya but we gotta start someplace. Lets at least start by teaching everyone how to tell a bb from a doe.

I am now in a situation where I own property where no one is allowed to take bucks which are younger than 4 1/2. We have a very strong and very successful deer management program. But I still empathize with hunters who hunt in areas that are heavily over-hunted and unmanaged. To take pot shots at individuals in those areas is unfair. A button buck in that area may be just as big a "trophy" as a 140 class buck where I am fortunate enough to hunt. If you want to criticize someone, you might start with the people who have control, not the average hunter.

Well I can conceed to a point. I jumped the gun. I apolagize. However nothing will ever change in those areas until people STOP shooting BB and fawns, learn what they are shooting, get organized and start caring more about the future than filling a tag today.

quote:

Originally posted by AEI:
nothing will ever change in those areas until people STOP shooting BB and fawns, learn what they are shooting, get organized and start caring more about the future than filling a tag today.

I agree completely...let's hope that the politicians and the state game departments wake up and educate the public...it's happening in Texas!

I would be interested in being educated on how to tell a nice tender doe from a button buck at 175 yards and walking thru weeds. Explain how please.

It isn't hard to tell them apart, the fawns look like their tail is twice as big compared to their body, which it is. I shoot does every year and haven't shot a button buck in the last 30 years. It isn't the same as jumping a big buck where you don't have time to size them up, if I let a young doe go, I really don't care anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by hunt4646:
I would be interested in being educated on how to tell a nice tender doe from a button buck at 175 yards and walking thru weeds. Explain how please.

Try here:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10905-29622--,00.html