Folks,

Why is hunting Brown Bear in Alaska so expensive?

Has it evolved to be a "what the market will bear" (please excuse the pun) situation, or are there rational reasons that it is so high?

thanks,

It's market forces. There are more non-residents who want to hunt brownies than there are permits available.

George

I personally think the "glamour hunts" are priced well beyond what 90% of the market will bear (there we go again). Take a look at the Stone sheep hunts...polar bears...etc, etc. I know the issue is complicated but the bottom line is not. There aren't many good values anymore unless you compare a discount hunt to the full retail but that's circular reasoning.

Supply and demand?

- mike

An excellent reason to hunt Africa or S.E. Asia for a couple thousand less.

Because they can.

There are a limited number of brown bears available for harvest, thus a limited number of opportunities to sell a hunt for any given outfitter. Total annual profits cannot be increased by adding volume -- selling more hunts, in other words. The infrastructure required to take a brown bear hunter out in the style they desire costs the same, whether you take three hunters out for $10,000 each or ten hunters out for $10,000 each. This infrastructure, in SE Alaska, generally means several boats. The "base" boat is going to cost from $150,000 on up, and require many thousands per year in operating costs and upkeep. (BOAT isn't really a word -- it's an acronym standing for "Break Out Another Thousand".) This is the boat you live on, and that gets you from your debarkation point to your hunting area -- this may be an ocean voyage of many miles to country that has exactly no other facilities. Then you have the skiff(s) required to get hunters back and forth. There you're looking at $15-25,000 per each, with motors and required equipment. I won't even go in to the people who have to be hired; the costs of food and transportation in remote Alaska; insurance; or license and permit fees. Oh, yeah -- the outfitter has to make enough money to keep himself and his family in Spam for the winter too. Frankly -- I'm astonished that they can sell these hunts for $10-12,000 each. These guys guide and outfit mostly for the life and the love of it. I can guarantee you no one is getting rich at it. The ones I know are lucky when they can make enough of a living at it that they don't have to get another job between seasons to make ends meet.

If you factor in exchange rates and cost of living, the Alaskans are working for a whole lot less.

Mule Deer's responce must be one of the most well versed, consise replies on this subject I've ever seen posted.

Thank you, sir! Coming from someone with your experience and background, that is a compliment indeed. I guided part-time in Wyoming for nine years, and thought keeping up horses, tack, trucks and trailers was expensive. Then I moved to Alaska and got introduced to boats. That's an entire other world of expense.

It somtimes completely amazes me that anyone offers outfitted hunts anywhere for prices that ordinary working people can save for and experience. I've been fortunate in being able to live in places where -- with a significant investment in time and equipment -- I could self-outfit and have those experiences on my own. But I'm under no particular illusion that owning my own horses, trailers, tack, etc. was ever more economical that simply hiring someone once a yer to pack me into the high country. I've always preferred rolling my own -- but that doesn't mean I've saved any money at it.

Two types of brown bear hunts, as muledeer has wrote one is a boat hunt the other requires an airplane, both different, neither cheap.

HBH

Why is milk so exspensive in Alaksa? Same reason bears are.

Actually, milk isn't that expensive in Alaska as the price is subsidized by the state-owned dairy. Building materials may be a better analogy.

I don't know where you buy cheap milk in Alaska, but I pay about $4 a gallon. Kinda expensive, if you ask me.

Dunno where that state-subsidized dairy is, but it's sure not in Southeast Alaska!

I'm still learning the boat business -- haven't started on airplanes yet, other than riding in floatplanes a fair amount. But I did talk to a guy who had the engine rebuilt in his personal Cessna the other day. Something over $30,000, for the rework.

I love living here, but it isn't cheap. Running a business is logistically difficult and expensive.

Don't forget: fuel prices that have been around $2/gal in rural Alaska for years (currently $2.39/gal in town now); high cost of supplies, etc due to small markets and high transport costs, see fuel prices; short hunting season each year, with long hunts required, typically 10 day to 14 day hunts. The entire season may be a month in the spring and a month in the fall, greatly limiting the number of hunts.

I have a buddy who has a guide service in SE Alaska, I used to guide for him. The amount of money he puts back into his business annually is staggering.

Remember, Alaska is expensive for the U.S., and Africa is part of the 3rd world economy. An assistant guide gets paid $130-$200/day, a bit more than the typical African tracker or skinner.

Guys,

The cost of living in Alaska is an issue ... but it seems to me that the supply and demand situation is what is the primary driver.

If guides control the already limited hunting permits, then they have a monopoly on the situation for those that must use guides (as I assume that residents do not) ... and the guides can drive the cost of hunting such that it can be accessed only by the very well off.

Seems unfortunate for the common man. I'd have thought a lottery would have been much more fair. That would have resulted in competiton for the hunter pool by the guides and forced a little range in the choices available.

Sounds like protectionism for a group that has had influence in the construction of the regulations.

Those that have never lived nor hunted in Alaska can't appreciate the logistical effort it takes to hunt many of the species....basically nothing is close to anything else and you need to fly it in, pack it in, or float it in....'cuz cousin there isn't much you can drive to.....and then you need to bring out everything you took in plus you must recover ALL THE MEAT before you bring anything else out. None of this is for the faint of heart or those without good, reliable gear and transportation....or clients with money in their pocket.

Comon guys, youre making it sound like the poor hunting guides that are mandatory for these hunts are just getting by. You sound like Patric Ewing and his "yea, I make a lot of money, but I spend a lot of money too" take.

Do you have any sort of clue what a "logistical nightmare" it is for the average Joe to get their hands on 30 grand? The prices are what they are simply because they know that some hunters will accomodate them. Otherwise guides would find a way to make it more affordable.

Is it outragious at some of the prices of some hunts. you bet it is. But just like what was mentioned before, it is expensive up here to live and upkeep of machines. One year I paid $4.50/gal for gas in Nikoli in dec for the snowmachine. I used to work for an airline and most of the A&P's had there own planes. Alot ended up selling there planes because of the cost of upkeep (they didnt have to pay hourly costs, just parts). these guys werent flying every day either, maybe a couple times a month.

It is also supply and demand. I know some guides and all are turning away bear hunters. Why lower the cost? I dont necissarily agree with it but its not my business. Sometimes it cheaper to just find a job and move to AK, become a resident and pay alot to hunt (minus the guide fees and nonres tag cost). Trust me its not cheap for the resident hunter either.

Guides do not control the number of permits available, the state Board of Game does.

I certainly don't know of any guides getting rich by guiding. Another guide I worked for became an oral surgeon to support his lodge, which is one of the best in the state. Some years the lodge wouldn't break even. Imagine an investment of millions of dollars that is actually creating income for less than 4 months per year.

Brown bear hunts are available for as little as $7500, which is still quite a lot of money, but it isn't remotely close to thirty grand. Of course, if you plan on hunting Kodiak Island with a world renowned guide expect to pay a premium price.

Finally, the market determines the prices, as in every commodity. Just because you can't afford a Holland and Holland rifle don't expect H&H to drop their prices.

Actually there are some very good rates on Brown / Griz hunts right now. What with the economy the way it is there are unfilled slots and cancellations going on. Just because there is a hunt offered for $5000 does not mean it’s a bad hunt. Maybe not a Guide with a proven track record but that doesn’t mean you will not have a great / successful hunt. Some guides are wanting to just break even or even loose money just to fill the slot. Sometimes it is a use it or loose it type situstion where you must show use.

Muledeer nailed things pretty well. I can add some about employee expenses. I pay my Guide $225 per day and that is barely above minimum wage. Guides work 24 / 7. Even if you try to cheat in your figures and say he is not working while sleeping, say 16 hours a day on the job, by the time you factor in overtime required by the employment laws you are barely clearing minimum wage. And this is for a job that is very dangerous duty !!!! Then figure in the required Workman’s Comp, Fed employer taxes, Bookkeeper rates (to do the payroll), food and expenses directly related to that employee, that $225 goes up somewhat. Times it by 12 to 14 days (per hunt) and that is a chunk of change right off the top.

Whitehurst is correct in the Guides do not control the Tags or Bears available to be killed. Depending on where in the state you guide. Here in SE the Fed Gov controls the number of hunts we are allowed, which is written into our use permit. Which is another costs, we have to pay the USFS for guiding on the USFS lands. Payments are based on the type of hunt; the Brown Bear is the most expensive fee. One hunter equals one hunt. Meaning we have two hunters in the field on one hunt we are charged 2 hunt fees in advance of our season. Also there is a ST of Ak directive by the B of G that says the kill must be kept below 4% (only 1 �% female) of the base population of any given area. (the reason Kodiak guides are fined a tag for the next season if a female is taken = loose revenue) Meaning if the guides go over that there will be closures to Non-resident hunts. Here in SE we do not have to worry about going over because the Fed (USFS) has capped it below that level, based on passed kill number averages. If there are too many kills say from Defense of Life or resident hunters (which is not capped) then the Non-resident hunter is the one to first be restricted. Meaning we stand to loose an $8000 available contract. I use the number of $8000 because that is what I currently get for my hunts. $6000 hunt fee with a $2000 fee charged on success of a Brown Bear. I offer a tent based camp style hunt and charge accordingly. It is a very high overhead hunt to conduct whether I use a vessel or an airplane charter for transportation to the field. Fuel costs have gone up 40% recently. Insurance’s which I have to have several – commercial auto, Guiding liability (also insuring the US Gov), boat, have all gone up about 20% since Sept 11th. All this current stuff means my rates will have to go up for ’04 and beyond.

Boat based hunts in SE average $10000 I would guess.

I charge what I have to charge to stay in business, as do most guides.