That is a healthy group of bears.

I've owned a 454 and now don't. I have a stainless "Classic" 44 that hasn't been out of the safe in years other than efforts to sell it.

I have an Airlite 38spl that I think is just neato. Very lightweight, very small and easier to carry than my subcompact 45. I saw something about Lehigh Defense bullets and their "extreme penetrator" bullets and I see they claim 2-3' of penetration. I thought that would be slick in my 38 and so I have them loaded at a moderate speed in my pocket.

quote:

Lehigh Defense bullets

What weight bullet are you reloading. What do you consider a moderate velocity

The gel tests that I have seen with the 100gr at 900 to 1000 fps out of 2 inch revolver. Is giving around 18 inches of penetration in 10% ballistic gel.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I've owned a 454 and now don't. I have a stainless "Classic" 44 that hasn't been out of the safe in years other than efforts to sell it.

I have an Airlite 38spl that I think is just neato. Very lightweight, very small and easier to carry than my subcompact 45. I saw something about Lehigh Defense bullets and their "extreme penetrator" bullets and I see they claim 2-3' of penetration. I thought that would be slick in my 38 and so I have them loaded at a moderate speed in my pocket.

You're the bear expert not me but are you saying that .38 is your choice for griz defense? I have an airlite .38 +P also but never considered it for that purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Sprig:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I've owned a 454 and now don't. I have a stainless "Classic" 44 that hasn't been out of the safe in years other than efforts to sell it.

I have an Airlite 38spl that I think is just neato. Very lightweight, very small and easier to carry than my subcompact 45. I saw something about Lehigh Defense bullets and their "extreme penetrator" bullets and I see they claim 2-3' of penetration. I thought that would be slick in my 38 and so I have them loaded at a moderate speed in my pocket.

You're the bear expert not me but are you saying that .38 is your choice for griz defense? I have an airlite .38 +P also but never considered it for that purpose.

I think what he really means is that he knows bears so well.

That he well never need a firearm to protect himself from any bear.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Sprig:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I've owned a 454 and now don't. I have a stainless "Classic" 44 that hasn't been out of the safe in years other than efforts to sell it.

I have an Airlite 38spl that I think is just neato. Very lightweight, very small and easier to carry than my subcompact 45. I saw something about Lehigh Defense bullets and their "extreme penetrator" bullets and I see they claim 2-3' of penetration. I thought that would be slick in my 38 and so I have them loaded at a moderate speed in my pocket.

You're the bear expert not me but are you saying that .38 is your choice for griz defense? I have an airlite .38 +P also but never considered it for that purpose.

I think what he really means is that he knows bears so well.

That he well never need a firearm to protect himself from any bear.

I hope for his sake he's right!

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Sprig:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Sprig:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I've owned a 454 and now don't. I have a stainless "Classic" 44 that hasn't been out of the safe in years other than efforts to sell it.

I have an Airlite 38spl that I think is just neato. Very lightweight, very small and easier to carry than my subcompact 45. I saw something about Lehigh Defense bullets and their "extreme penetrator" bullets and I see they claim 2-3' of penetration. I thought that would be slick in my 38 and so I have them loaded at a moderate speed in my pocket.

You're the bear expert not me but are you saying that .38 is your choice for griz defense? I have an airlite .38 +P also but never considered it for that purpose.

I think what he really means is that he knows bears so well.

That he well never need a firearm to protect himself from any bear.

I hope for his sake he's right!

Or anybody else he doesn't allow to carry a firearm when he is guiding fishermen.

I'm certainly not an expert, I doubt I even rate an amateur, but I do live in bear country for the last couple decades, I do work in bear county for the same amount of time, so I have seen what seems to me to be prudent or not. In the above I mentioned what I think would work for me.

My load is for the 140g bullet and is going 900 fps. As with most things in life I take the manufacturer's word for their products performance. In my particular case I think the Airlite is best. Walking around or working with a larger handgun isn't reasonable and would generate worry and commentary from my neighbors and peers. The only people that wander around here with the big magnums on their hip are the tourists that just don't know any better and they quit it soon enough.

For me or to me, bear defense would be "points blank". Even with a good rifle in my hands I don't see myself pulling the trigger at any bear 20 or more yards away, (dlp,) and my guess is if it was here in town and I only had my pistol it'd be closer than that if I was shooting. So for me, if I was shooting to defend life and property id be aiming at the front end of a bear coming at me so getting penetrating bullets in his head, between his front legs thru his spine, whatever would be best. I've got five shots in that gun. If I can do no more than dissuade him that's fine with me, no doubt id already be retreating before I started shooting so I can continue to leave and then come back later with a rifle.

5500 ft lb Marlin. I built this thing over 20 years ago and ran some 200or so rounds through a test barrel using the Oehler M43 system to develop loads.

Now have 6 boxes of 500 gr Woodleighs that I need to do load development for.

The gun lost interest as the gent paying for the project went off to greener pasture.



50 cal on top, 45-70 below.

Remember when Fredo pulled out his .38 special to defend Don Corleone? That's how I envision a gun fight with a griz with that gun.

Very nice rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Sprig:
Remember when Fredo pulled out his .38 special to defend Don Corleone? That's how I envision a gun fight with a griz with that gun.

Well don't hold me to it, I could have it completely wrong after all these years, but way, way back I think I remember I was told that on Kodiak, a federal game warden used or thought it was a good idea to use a mini 14.

The way I remember it, the Warden liked the rapid fire of the semi auto, the zero recoil and high velocity full metal jacket for penetration. So if you're shooting at the front end of a charging bear you get him right thru the brains.
I don't think my idea is to much different.

Folks,

If you don't remember Scott lives just down the road from where I did in Dillingham, AK. Bears in and around Dillingham are common and you just need to learn to live with them. You are likely to find a bear in your yard particularly at night about anytime between June and Oct.

Scott says he's not an expert but bears are part of life where he lives and on every hunting and fishing adventure he goes on. I'd take what he said about bears seriously.

He's 100% right. The only people packing big magnum handguns are tourists or newcomers to the bush. You catch on pretty quickly that your hand cannon works better as a dedicated hunting tool rather than a carry gun.

Mark

As far as 2 inch 38's go I have four in my safes and have done a bit of shooting and testing them. I carried one as my secondary side arm for years.

If one is carrying them for the possibility of using them against bears. The best penetrating bullets are in order. Scotts 140gr 357dia extreme penetrators should work as good as any at the velocity he is getting.

Out of a 2 inch 38.

We have found 5 cases where 38 caliber revolvers where used in defense against bears.

Four according to the criteria were successful one was not. They are recorded in the below articles

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/...yoming-grizzly-bear/

https://www.ammoland.com/2024/...9-3x18-38-revolvers/

As with any situation where one has to defend ones life with a firearm. Having a firearm is the most important factor.

I commend Scott of carrying one.

I myself prefer bigger sidearms now days.

quote:

He's 100% right. The only people packing big magnum handguns are tourists or newcomers to the bush.

I don't know about that Phil carried a K frame smith in 357 until he gave to his daughter after that he carried a 629 44mag mountain gun.

As far as carrying any firearm it has far more to do with mind set then anything as long as legal.

I now have carried sidearms 99 percent of the time. For the last 45 years everyday for most of my waking hours. I have taught thousands to use them for self-defense. I have carried mouse guns deep under cover to extra- large frame long barreled super magnums for hunting.

A typical day I start off for a 4.5 mile walk in black bear, wolf and occasional cougar country. A 686 plus 6 inch goes along of those walks.

A Glock model 23 is then worn most of the rest of the day. Other times a full size 1911 is worn or any of my many other handguns.

Good holsters and proper mine set is all it takes. For those who whine about carrying they just don't want to.

Now if one is talking the large super magnums like then 454 475 460S@W and 500S@W. I would agree they make good dedicated hunting guns especially in the longer barrel versions

I realize they are "magnums" but I would have considered the 357 and 44 to be more normal, average or typical. The super beasties like the 454 and upwere what I was thinking of as a tourist novelty.

I'd like to eventually have a 357 and a 44 Airlite or a 45 mountain gun but I don't realistically see it. Seriously if anyone wants my S&W Classic, let me know. I have less than no interest.

I actually don't carry everyday. Frequently circumstances dictate being un armed and other circumstances have no need. When I'm out and about with the kids and dog my small revolver seems reasonable. If I'm further away from home the rifle seems most appropriate.

I appreciate the every day experience you're sharing Scott. You live among them and sometimes they're in your yard which is amazing to me despite me living in pretty dense black bear country.

One question: when you're out in the deep woods/willows......no way you carry that airlite yes? Reason I ask is I literally ordered a tank holster for my GP100 .357 yesterday.

Granted if you're carrying a trapper's special .45-70 a sidearm is just extra baggage.

I have 6 357's from a 20oz 2.5 to my 6 inch L frame. N frame sized 357 don't interest me.

I was issued a model 28 4inch and carried it for about a year until I brought a stainless security 6. The N frames are Way to much gun for what one needed in a duty 357.

I had 8 44mags but I sold off all my single actions now I have 5 of them from a 30oz 4 inch tracker to my 14 inch TC contender. My favorite is my 5.5 inch Redhawk.

My Ti 27 oz 41mag is a joy to carry but it is a carry a lot shoot only when you have to sidearm. The ports make it very loud.

Plus all my semi-autos from 22 to 45.

As far as rifles go. It has been discuss many times a loaded rifle in ones hands is the better bear arm.

But long guns in general tend to be put down, lett a few feet away, slung with a empty chamber.

When doing things beside actively pursuing game.

quote:

Originally posted by Bull Sprig:
I appreciate the every day experience you're sharing Scott. You live among them and sometimes they're in your yard which is amazing to me despite me living in pretty dense black bear country.

One question: when you're out in the deep woods/willows......no way you carry that airlite yes? Reason I ask is I literally ordered a tank holster for my GP100 .357 yesterday.

Granted if you're carrying a trapper's special .45-70 a sidearm is just extra baggage.

I would carry the 38 because the circumstances would be similar. A charge from point blank, using a low recoil and lightweight revolver with deep penetration bullets.

An important point to make is I'm usually not in deep woods/ willows, there's nothing in there but possible trouble. Moose and other game animals are out on the edge and I find it most productive to be on the edge of the cover with them or spotting from a vantage point. I've snuck up on a couple using game trails in thick cover but it's rare. Success greatly increases catching them up on their feet and moving. I personally don't have any use for the short barreled lever guns for defense. I do have a smaller Ruger in 9.3x62 that shoots 320g Woodlieghs very well and id consider that a good brush gun or bear defense if any. Last year three of us found ourselves crawling through dense woods/ willows on a moose hunt. You couldn't see anywhere, we were constantly slapped in the glasses and hat brims with branches. There was a ton of bear sign, no moose sign, we got out of there and didn't go back. I had a 458 in my hands, it was always stuck on a branch one day or another. If I'd of had a handgun with me I'd of had to realize what's going on, push my glasses back up on my face and my hat back off my eyes, drop the hung up rifle and pull out the pistol. What's the point? Why bother?

You can't fly fast in there, there's no game to be had other than an occasional spruce grouse, might as well stay out on the edge and catch them sunning themselves.

Thanks for the explanation.

I just got back from moose hunting and read through this topic.
I'll give my 2 cents worth.
I've lived and wandered around grizzly country for 42 years. I started out carrying a Super Black Hawk in .44 mag. it was heavy but that was all I could afford.
I then carried a .44 mag in an air lite for over 30 years. Nice carry gun. I would practice with .44 special rounds to not shoot it out and save on my hand. When I'd load full .44 mag's it was a beast to shoot. I was lucky to get one aimed shot off every 5 to 10 seconds trying really hard. I realized I'd be lucky to get one shot before a bear was on me at defense of life range.
I tried a Glock 10mm. At Defense distance I could get 4 to 5 aimed shots off, that hit in the pie ring in that 5 to 10 seconds.
I now carry the 10mm in a chest tactical holster that is very comfortable. Tactical because when I step on to bear country I load one in that chamber.
I've only shot one that that was running at me, i say running as i don't think he was really charging and I had a bear tag. I shot him with a 300WM and he never knew what hit him in his eye. I've only pulled my pistol twice on a bear, one black and one brown, both backed off.
Bottom line is be prepared, any short gun with good bullets could save your life.
Just my 2 cents.