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Re: IS THERE a lesson here????
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Picture of Murf
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The same law is in effect in Sask. What was not clear from the posting was whether the poster had already tagged his animals. Here once your tag is filled it means you are finished hunting. It is also against the law for one person to tag game taken by another. Buying a tag is not a quarantee of getting the game. In many zones the number of tags sold is based on the success levels of previous years. In short if everyone was to fill their tag then the result will be fewer tags and therefore fewer hunters able to partake in what to many is a highly valued sport.
Do locals abuse this and other laws? Of this I am certain but it is not an excuse for outsiders to come in and disregard the law.
One real problem with such a law involves young or novice hunters. If the experienced hunter shoots first and connects he must stop hunting. I realise there are many times when a back up shoter would be very helpful to avoid wounded animals escaping to die later. Twice this year I was accompanied by family members that were first time hunters. I held back on more than one occassion so as to be in a legal position to add follow up shots if necessary. Thankfully that was not the case this year. For this reason I am somewhat opposed to the law as it now stands but I also see the logic of not allowing one shooter to fill tags for others. When that is allowed many non hunters are employed simply to provide tags for the those who are of the impression that a tag is similar to a grocery cart at the local meat market.
Sometimes it is better to keep ones actions to themselves. So don't ask me if I have ever abused tags. I suppose it is a case of personal morals or ethics as well as opposed to obidience to the letter of the law.
As for a large number of the locals using what most of us consider unsporting tactics I would imagine many of them were hunting under subsistense hunting and doubt there were even many licenses involved. What we see as sport to many is simply getting food. This is a hot topic here in Canada and not really the issue being discussed.
 
Posts: 14361 | Location: Sask. Canada | Registered: 04 December 2000Reply With Quote
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The hunters harvested game that they had legal tags for






Actually if we are understanding the story right ,one hunter purposely shot two animals when he only had one tag left.Therefore he did break the law.The other hunter also broke the law by tagging an animal that another hunter had killed.So he too broke the law.Sure this would be legal in many locations but not in the location where it took place.Sure this type of scenario does take place very often,but it is not often that someone would publish the details of the illegal practises that he and his partner had committed.To do so is to flaunt the fact that one broke the law.The fact that police officers were involved in these illegal activities makes things seem evem worse.Worst of all however, is to chastise an individual that points out that the activities were illegal.To do so is equal to condoning such activities.The smart thing in this case would have been to simply not mention that one hunter killed game for another hunter.
 
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Maybe Canada is turning into the kind of Police state where every tiny transgression is reported by willing snitches. Do you really want to get a ticket for every time you exceed the speed limit, go through a barely yellow light, or shot 2 minutes after legal hunting hours? Can you other sanctimonious Canadian hunters guarantee that you've never unknowingly violated some minor game law. I think not.
I do my best to obey all the game laws of wherever I hunt to the letter. But frankly there is getting to be so many different laws in different locations I would doubt that any hunter has absolutely never unknowingly violated some minor regulation. True justice would be to go after the people who are knowingly wounding game using unethical hunting methods and even bigger infractions rather than persecuting extremely minor ones. It's like putting people in jail for parking violations and letting bank robbers go unmolested. You had a situation where hunters where riding up on snowmobiles to shoot game wounding many and make no mention of that but throw a hissy fit when someone 2 feet away pulls a trigger to fill a legally purchased tag. You are noticing a speck and missing the 2x4.
It's also totally absurd to be printing 1-888 numbers to try and get others to report someone in a situation you clearly don't have all the facts about. If you can't see the difference between what was going on with the snowmobile hunters and our friend you have no common sense or true sense of justice and are no longer even worth cussin' at...........DJ
 
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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It's also totally absurd to be printing 1-888 numbers to try and get others to report someone in a situation you clearly don't have all the facts about




If you witnessed a crime being committed would you refuse to report it because you don't have all the facts?
 
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002Reply With Quote
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NOW FOR the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say...

First, NO member of the RCMP ever asked me to kill anything for them.
My partner who was 3 feet off my shoulder when I took the 'boo is NOT an RCMP but he is an Ontario resident.

Second, this IS A GUARANTEED HUNT which means, they WILL make sure you fill all tags if you press the issue. that if you do not score on your own and you need help the outfitter WILL throw you on a snowmobile and ride you into the woods until you come up to the first animal you see, cow calf or bull, tell you to get off and shoot it. I know because this is how others have said they have limited out up there. I guess that is legal.

3rd, ignorance of the law is NOT an excuse but I was not aware it was a violation. I don't read French and all the game law regs I have recieved when purchasing my tags have been in French. They are always "out" of the English ones, and quite frankly until this season it was never a topic of discussion.
HOWEVER, as a person who has spent an entire adulthood in law enforcment as either a cop or prosecutor, I know there is the "letter" of the law and then the "spirit" of the law and they are NOT exclusive of each other. I regularly have seen examples of people getting caught up in laws designed for catching "real bad guys" and not the hapless citizen caught in the trap of maybe technically violating the law but having NO criminal intent or inclination.

Example, during Michigan deer season, we would regularly get people who also had a small game license and would be hauling a .22 pistol around with them while hunting. They throw their gear into the jump seat area of their pickup to head home becasue they have no cap on their pickup and the weather is horrible. They get stopped for speeding or some minor violation. They are asked if they have any weapons in the vehicle and answer truthfully. They have the ammo and the handgun in the same bag, because they only have the one big bag for their gear...Instant felony violation of Michigan's concealed carry laws. The person has never commited a crime, never intended to commit a crime, is an upstanding citizen, but is caught by a law intended to keep real crooks from carrying guns for the commission of crime.
Looking at the letter of the law, you prosecute and make him a felon. Looking at the spirit of the law, you know the legislature never intended this result from the law and so you do NOT ruin the persons life by following the letter. It is what we call in the United States "LOOKING AT THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES." IF there is NO room for such consideration in Canada, then I feel sorry for you folks.

After slogging through 2-3foot deep snow over 3 days of hard hunting of the hills and ridges and my partner standing next to me and the tags being guaranteed if he wants to ride down a 'boo on a snomobile he decides on another option, then that is based on the totality of the circustances.
I guess riding them down on a snowmobile would be more of a "sportsman like" and legal way to do things,
OR
he could have tried to shoot his own on a questionable shot because that is obviously the "legal" thing to do. I have seen people firing away at Caribou running across lakes at speed and ranges I wouldn't try, yet they blaze away with their 760s and 742s and bolt guns, all off hand shooting at ranges in excess of 300-600+yds waiting to see if something drops so I guess that is legal also. Interestingly, the ONLY people I have seen engage in THAT kind of behavior had Quebec plates on their vehicles. Folks from other places may do it also, I just have never been witness to it. But again shooting into herds is legal from what I have seen. Personally after witnessing such a display and then seeing the caribou flopping and crawling and limping along that happend to actually get hit by the volley fire, I was filled with revulsion about how "sportmenlike" these people were, but then as they would start out onto the ice to finsh off the wounded, I would understand it is "legal". Coming back later on though there would still be caribou dead on the ice that were not taken by these "legal sportsmen", who knows why.... but I guess it was all legal.
So, at this stage...
I guess "it depends on what your definition of IS is".
 
Posts: 624 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 07 April 2003Reply With Quote
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I was in Alaska once watching a herd of caribou--possibly 20 or so. They came to a frozen lake and got onto it and were headed our way. Not too far onto the lake,here came snowmobiles from every direction. Like Lawcop described,firing away--spray and pray. Caribou limping,some going down and flailing. Singles running off with two or three snowmachines in pursuit. That herd was wiped out. Didn't stick around to see if all got dressed out and harvested. There is a cartoon of a caribou hunt and every kind of weapon is being used and the frustration of it all has the game warden cutting out paper dolls. I thought it was a cartoon until I saw this,then realized it was a real life scene.
 
Posts: 1289 | Location: San Angelo,Tx | Registered: 22 August 2003Reply With Quote
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Lawcop: I did not try and justify the unsportsman like actions of the other "hunters" that you describe but stated that in Canada there are many who take meat under rules different than sport hunting. In regards to the illegal practices you observed did you contact the authorities. We had a situation on this falls elk hunt where some subsistence hunters where going beyond even the few regulation that govern their hunt. Being subsistense hunters they were allowed to use ATV's in the same area where sport hunters had to walk. They were then observed heading in to the area at light equipped with trucks and ATV's loaded with roll bars carrying spot lights just at sundown. A quiet word with the conservation officers led to several officers watching out for any further offenses. No charges were laid because of lack of hard evidence, no dead game so they could claim berry picking or lord knows what but the illegal activities stopped.

As far as the hunt being quaranteed I hardly think that is a part of the Provincial legislation. It sounds like an outfitters "bait" to get more business. If he is making such a claim then it still doesn't have any bearing on the game laws. Taking this to court would rightfully get you no where. Doing what you say other "hunters" have done is illegal and no way could the quarantee be used as an excuse.
As for the amount of money your group spends it may have some benefits to the businesses you frequent but that is a private matter between you and them and only applies to the goods or services you recieved. Sorry but purchase of public ( okay it is legally Queen Lizzies' ) game is not allowed. Here is Sask it is illegal for a lisenced guide to carry a firearm while accompaning clients. This is to prevent "guides" from shooting game for their "sports". I am sorry to say I believe that it does result in some wounded animals getting away because of the failure of a back up shooter.
AS for the question of which laws are to be upheld and which are to be disregarded it is NOT the place for a nonresident ( I could use your countries term...alien ) to make such a determination.
Now back to the main issues as I see them. Your group by limiting their shooting to match their skill and equipment level is admirable and certainly follows even the unwriten rules of sportsmanship.
The shooting of someone else game is not legal. Period. Is it a isolated case. Most certainly not. It is I would suggest one of the most commonly occurring violations but that in and of its is not a valid defence.
Much of this discussion as you have pointed out revolves around ethics. Spirit of the law and so on. Did you do irreparable damge to the health of the herd. No. Did it in the long run do less harm than shooting and wounding numerous caribou in order to fill the tags? Certainly. This is why I mentioned the question of ethics in my first response. Sometimes one has to be ready to accept the possibilities of legal consequences to balance their personnal beliefs.
 
Posts: 14361 | Location: Sask. Canada | Registered: 04 December 2000Reply With Quote
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Good response, Murf.

There are two things we all know, but we only generally accept and approve of one of them.

The thing we generally accept is group hunts. The totality of the group shoots on the gross entitlement of the group, and everybody takes home what is legally his. Plus lots of sharezies, which is also technically illegal. "Group" usually means four guys at most - two pairs, although that occasionally varies.

The thing we also acknowledge but hate is cops who let each other off for minor offences and "technicalities". Politicians, the wealthy and cops do lots of it and nobody respects it.

If LAWCOP wants to be a guest here he should be a bit more tactful. I don't know how he would feel if I wrote about a great pitlamping trip with game wardens in his home state. After all, "nobody got hurt" and "the deer herd wasn't hurt", so who cares about some midnight hunting as long as it is "officially controlled"?

There is an old expression that "justice must also be seen to be done." LAWCOP has violated that principle. I know for sure that although I have group hunted, I wouldn't dare do it in front of cops, even if they were off duty and hunting. LAWCOP is just bragging that the "Brotherhood of the Badge" works across borders. Great, but don't brag to me about it.

Conservation officers/game wardens are mostly bottom feeder leo's. They don't work hard unless you consider drinking coffee in a government truck "work". They mostly prey on honest sportsmen who give them the evidence voluntarily, then they press for maximum penalties. One in BC allegedly used to nail guys with a stop sign offence if they pulled right up to him instead of stopping the front bumper at his "stop line" where he held the sign.
 
Posts: 36231 | Location: Laughing so hard I can barely type.  | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Sorry but I didn't pick up on any brotherhood of the badge crap. Neither would I agree with your comments about CO's , wardens etc being the bottom of the LEO profession. Any time I have been stopped by a CO they have acted in a courteous manner, collected what information they required and left after causing the minimal disruption to my hunt.I for one am glad we have CO's to protect our game and wish there were more of them. Sure I have heard third person accounts of abuses but I have not seen such myself. Any CO's I have encountered were quite willing to treat respect with respect.
 
Posts: 14361 | Location: Sask. Canada | Registered: 04 December 2000Reply With Quote
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