Cool. It would be nice to get them reestablished. I read though that if that wall was ever built on the border that you can kiss any migration of wildlife from the south goodby.

If there were 2000 of them in Arizona, New Mexico and Texas they would never let us hunt them.

Having them come back is not going to be a blessing, it will end up being a curse. As the antis will use them as a tool to shut us out of public lands in the west.

Now that the state and feds know this one is there, they will kill it trying to "study" it just like they did the last one. Macho B. They can't just leave them alone, they have to catch them, drug them up, collar them and disturb the shit out of them until they die. Sorry to see someone let anyone know about this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Cool. It would be nice to get them reestablished. I read though that if that wall was ever built on the border that you can kiss any migration of wildlife from the south goodby.

Virtually all jaguars found in Arizona over more than 100 years of record-keeping were males that presumably wandered north. No breeding pair was ever documented.

If it was ever decided to establish a resident jaguar population here, a wall would keep introduced jaguars from heading south to more suitable habitat, so stopping cross-border migration would be a good thing in the eyes of some people.

Most of the southeastern portion of our state has been declared "critical habitat" for jaguars ... all because a couple of males wandered up here in recent years. Only time will tell what that federal designation will mean for those who live, work and hunt here.

As far as I know, the only unique large mammal that would be affected by a wall in Arizona would be the Sonoran pronghorn, and my guess is that this subspecies would benefit in the long term.

For one thing, a wall would keep them from winding up in tacos and tamales.

Bill Quimby

That's what every cow rancher in Texas, New Mexico and Arizona wants, talk about putting folks out of business! Along with Lions, and bears, now add Jaquars..not a good idea. Not to mention the preditation on the Coues, Mule and whitetail deer, The pronghorn, the Javalina that take a big hit form the Lion.

Let California and Oregon have them, they can help the bears, Lions, and Coyotes eat their pets and babies...wonderful!

The Big Bend area and Arizona in past years have had Jaquars, ( mostly males ) and Mexican Grizley hanging out near the Mexican border, and wondering over, but few other than the Mt. Lion have survived. Lions are so prolifet they seem to survive, but do a lot of damage to the cattle men that feed the nation. They are continually hunted, trapped and chased with dogs to keep numbers down, but never have been killed out, mostly because dogs and cats litter..

We have seen the results of well wishers to our elk herds in Idaho with the implanting of Alaskan wolves, they are decimating the elk, the deer will be next..wolves are even killing the Mt. Lions in Northern Idaho now. '

Be careful whatcha wish for you just might get it, then you'll be walking around and whistleing "Who'd a thought it"....

Ray, got any pictures of those Mexican Grizzlies you mentioned?

Just some anecdotal information for what it is worth.

While doing my Guided Javelina hunt operation in Pecos county, east of Fort Stockton from 1998 thru 2011, I became acquainted with the Government Trapper/Federal Animal Damage Control agent that worked the area the ranch I did the Javelina on was located in.

In a conversation one day, I asked him about Mountain Lions in that area/on that ranch, and he explained that lions came thru that property only occasionally.

He went on to explain that a ranch another agent worked on 4 miles or so south of the ranch I was hunting, was a travel corridor for lions and in the previous 12 months the agent working that ranch had trapped 36 lions.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Now that the state and feds know this one is there, they will kill it trying to "study" it just like they did the last one. Macho B. They can't just leave them alone, they have to catch them, drug them up, collar them and disturb the shit out of them until they die. Sorry to see someone let anyone know about this one.

This is correct!
Zeke

Coyote HUnter,
Dad has some pictures but I have no clue what happened to them..The last Mexican Griz was killed in the 1930s by Elba and Ulyss Adams and that rug was in Shuddies Hdwe, Marathon, Texas last I know of...I saw a few black bears on the ranch I was raised on, and a Mex griz killed 20 head of sheep on the Adams ranch, He didn't eat any of them, was just playing..

Well I would like to see grizzlies get reintroduced in Colorado. Kind of took the edge of camping when I move here from Montana ..

Grizzlies will return to Colorado on their own sooner or later and probably more like sooner.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Coyote HUnter,
Dad has some pictures but I have no clue what happened to them..The last Mexican Griz was killed in the 1930s by Elba and Ulyss Adams and that rug was in Shuddies Hdwe, Marathon, Texas last I know of...I saw a few black bears on the ranch I was raised on, and a Mex griz killed 20 head of sheep on the Adams ranch, He didn't eat any of them, was just playing..

Ray:

Way back in my newspapering days, I interviewed an interesting fellow named Ben Tinker who owned a ranch in the Sierra Madres of Chihuahua, Mexico. He claimed there still were grizzly bears on his ranch until the early 1960s and he showed me photos of bears his workers killed. The photos were not dated, so they could have been made much earlier, but I believed him.

I'm typing this at my cabin in Arizona's White Mountains, about 15 air miles from Mount Baldy where Arizona's last known Mexican grizzly was killed in September 1935.

Bill Quimby

I have talked to some ranchers in the Chihuahua area and the Boranco De Cobres that have seen Grizleys on their ranches, but that was near 40 years ago. I believe I saw a Mexican grizley in the Sierra Del Carmens South of the Big Bend National Park a two day ride from the old Adams ranch..We used to hunt Black bear there and give the Forestales a 100 lbs. of suger or a case of shotgun shells for a hand written license..The bear in question was much larger than any bear I had seen there and he was 500 to 600 yards loping down the side of mountain, but could have been a huge black bear I suppose, but we thought it was a grizley..The Mexican Grizley is about a 400 to maybe 500 lbs. Im told. this was in 1950..

It was risky hunting there back then as their were lots of bandits, but they never bothered us other than making things exciting just by observation, but they were more likely to steal chickens than take on a bunch of armed crazy teen age cowboys..pretty low class bandits apparently...That area has a lot of Coues, Mule Deer, Bear and another Mule Deer Species that I can't recall the Crooki in Mexico but just Mule deer to us back then... I could book a few hunts in that area, but not many folks hunting in Mexico these days as the cartels are a problem, but no problems with this outfit as the owner is a Mexican General. The quail hunting is awesome. Bear have thinned out from what it used to be Im told, but the deer are doing well..

Ray:

I envy your sighting of a Mexican grizzly bear. The 1950s were a great time to be a teenager living along the border as we both did back then. My buddies and I were fortunate to have made trips into Baja California Norte and northern Sonora at a time when no one on either side of the line cared if we had a rifle or two with us.

Not to be picky, but scientists classify the whitetails you hunted in the Sierras del Carmen as the Carmen Mountain whitetail subspecies. Coues whitetails are found farther west. Also, there is only one species of mule deer, but 10-11 recognized subspecies (types) across North America. All mule deer in the region you hunted are classified as desert mule deer.

Bill Quimby

The mule deer in the Sierra del Carmens (and all of the Big Bend region) were once considered to be the Crooki subspecies, and that name is still used by some, but Jim Heffelfinger of AZ determined that that Crooki specimen forming the basis of the subspecies was actually a whitetail/mule deer hybrid, which means that it wasn't a subspecies at all. As Mr.Quimby says, a desert mule deer is a desert mule deer. All are now considered odocoileus hemionus eremicus. It's kind of sad to see the subspecies de-recognized, sort of like when they decided Pluto isn't a planet.

I heard a different story about the last Mexican grizzly. It was inadvertently poisoned (with 1080, I think) around 1970 by a well-known American trapper doing predator control in Mexico. I don't know that it was ever reported, but I do trust my source.

We can no longer hunt coyotes in certain parts of Eastern NC because the feds reintroduced Red Wolfs. A coyote is a much better predator than a Red Wolf and they are thriving here in the thick timber. There is a study now saying that our coyotes may not be coyotes but coy wolfs. We have killed coyotes that weigh as much as 50 pounds. A timber wolf was killed on my farm that weighed 95 pounds eight years ago. No telling what the big timber companies around here have released in order to take out the rabbits. Rabbits eat small pine trees. Twenty years ago we did not have rattle snakes.

Bill,
During the CCC days of Pres. Roosvelt, Texas parks or the Fed. Park Service traded Texas Mule Deer for Coues deer with Arizona, mostly to put people back to work from the great depression, these coues deer were turned out in the Big Bend National Park, where they flourished and move out onto our ranch, and even to some of the ranches behind Marathon, Texas such as the Blakemore and old Cap Yates ranch..Locals refer to these deer as Hog Nose deer or Fantails as do the Mexicans on the other side of the park that borders the Rio Grande and the Sierra Del Carmens Mt. Range..Some SCI experts got into the mix and renamed them the Sierra Del Carmin deer and SCI accepted that as fact, two schools of thought on that, but to me they look like every Coues deer that Ive shot in that they have that little dainty hog nose and fawn size of mature bucks, the problem is they also have the regular Texas white tail that exist on both sides of the Rio beginning just East of Alpine, Tex to nearby Sanderson, Del Rio and all points to La.., thus the confusion of the biologists. ..My dad and some other kin folks, and Ebla Adams, Ulis Adams, Capt Yates, and other old timers from Marathon area contracted to drive the cattle trucks transporting the deer to help maintain their ranches in those hard times..I remember observing the activity but I was very young and just in school at the time..The Mule deer in question in the Del Carmens are recognized only recently as "Crooki Mule Deer". I can arrange hunts on over 100,000 acre ranch in that area in Mexico for both species. Its a lavish Hacienda with the best of commendations, expertly guided, and if you don't kill it will be only your poor shooting, lots of blue quail, lots of both species of deer, Javalina, coyotes, bobcats and Mt. Lions, and I suspect a few bear at least in that Ive killed bear years ago on another nearby ranch and on our own in that same general area..you can fly in from San Anotonio or Del Rio on your dollar or drive in to the ranch, but will be met at Del Rio and escorted to the ranch at no charge..The owner has been in the hunting business since 1972 to go with his ranching interprise. IMO it may be the most beautiful place in the world, but Im a West texas boy and its home to me.The ranch must be in the Mexican state of Coahuila, Mexico. These hunts are not cheap but coincide with most deer hunts in Texas.

Hi Ray:

As Sandyhunter mentioned above, few taxonomists still consider the crooki mule deer to be a valid subspecies. Also, although I can't say it didn't happen, for the National Park Service to allow Coues deer to be released in a park with its own unique whitetail subspecies would have been extremely controversial even so long ago -- and rightly so. What's more, introducing even as many as 50 to 100 Coues deer into an area with Carmen Mountain whitetails probably would have had little long-term effect on the genetics of the existing population.

I was editor of the SCI record books when the SCI Trophy Records Committee approved then-Americas chairman Craig Boddington's recommendation to create separate categories for certain whitetail subspecies, including the Carmen Mountains race. Although Carmen Mountain whitetails do have features that visibly resemble Coues deer, there are enough differences that a body of scientists decided (decades before SCI came upon the scene) that they deserve to be treated separately.

Bill Quimby

Bill and Sandy,
Thanks for the information, although it confuses me a bit..I never heard of Crooki Mule Deer in the Big Bend although I was raised next to the Big Bend National Park, and had my own ranch (leased) bording the Big Bend Park, called the Rosillas Mountain Ranch. I ended up discussing booking for Caza Cimarron Ranch, known as the jewel of Mexico, 100,000 plus acres owned and operated by Rodolfo de Los Santos. He sells Crooki Mule Deer and Del Carmen Whitetail hunts on his ranch and he told me that The Carmen Mt. deer were recognized by SCI and the Crooki Deer would soon be recognized by SCI, I have seen the Mule Deer in that area of Mexico as I hunted many many times in my youth, I personally could not tell any difference in the Crooki and the desert Mule deer, or the Carmen Mt. whitetail and the Coues of Arizona, or the Big Bend Park whitetail or those little deer on the Yates or Blackmore ranch that locals call fan tail or hog nose deer.. but Im not a biologist.

I also have seen the mule Deer south of near by Sanderson, Texas, where they have a number of mule deer, Texas white tail crosses, along with both Mule deer and regular old Texas whitetail. and I can sure tell the difference in that cross and a Del Carmen or desert Mule deer..Sanderson as you probably know is about the dividing border that seperates Texas Mule deer and Texas whitetail, and its pretty darn close to the area were talking about..I recall Texas parks and wildlife biologist claimed Mule deer and whitetail would not cross breed, and that had to be proven to them by the local ranchers and now Texas Parks and Wildlife accept the fact they will cross breed..I also know from experience on my ranch that the 60 to 80 lb lb. what we called coues bucks can whip the socks off and mule deer, and run them out of the area, which I felt was a positive thing for both breeds? Ive seen it often. I determined by observation that the small horns of the coues would go between the large muley horns and rip up the mule deers face and eyes, and on occasion we would shoot a one eyed muley and I suspect that was the result of the tiny whitetail.

I will say this, that Ive had biologist explain to me the difference that we speak of, no two of which always agree, the same info comes from the local vets..On the other hand Ive raised cattle, sheep, goats, horses, and my own Coues and Mule deer and much of what they quoted me, in my opinion, could simply be a gene pool difference of the same species that's now being separated for various reasons, be it fame or fortune Im not sure, nor would I swear to it, but if its true it would possible to separated a throughbred race horse from a quarter horse least we come up with another breed and that sure ain't gonna happen. There are gene pool difference within all species of animals.

All this is based solely on my lifes experience in that area, and not based on science. I find your post very interesting and lots of room for conversation, no argument.

Another point I left out is the coues or Del Carmen deer on my ranch, the Blackemore, and the Yates as well as the mature bucks in Mexico weighed 60 to on one occasion 120 lbs. It seems to me the Del Carmen deer are 125 to 130 on average, the same as the Texas whitetail or the Sanderson deer??

Sorry, I added a bit more to my above posts, and probably should have posted a new post. If interested reread the last one.