Actually Ballbuster, your assumptions are incorrect. The first observations of CWD were made at CSU in 1967. Captive deer were losing weight and no one knew why. Then, the same weight loss and symptoms were observed at Sybille (a wildlife research facility) in Wyoming. The two facilities had been trading research animals (deer and elk) back and forth, and scientists believe that is how it spread into Wyoming. Several years went by, and CWD was eventually discovered in free ranging wildlife. At that time it was not know what exactly was causing all these deer to get sick, however it was later discovered that a prion (rogue protein) was responsible for the spongiform encephalopethies (hole in the brain) found in deer.
If you need other examples of what "game farms" can do to free ranging wildlife-look at what Tuberculosis did for Saskatchewan, Colorado, Montana, and Alberta elk farms. CWD also spread into Nebraska thanks to a game farm.

Elk and deer in my opinion should not be privately owned. The threats of disease, hybridization (ex. mouflon and bighorn sheep), competition (mouflon and mule deer), and range destruction (feral hogs) are just a few problems associated with the industry. Canned hunts are minor when looking at the big picture (anti's love em).

MG

Madgoat would you say next no cows should be allowed to be owned 'cause England, Canada and The US had cases of mad cow. Weren't they free to roam their pastures and deer and elk free to jump over the fence and help themselves to cattle feed? there are as many opinions about the cause of CWD & TB as there are people willing to discuss the subject. But I think you know that.
What about the fur industry and mange/rabies? ?nder your assumptions it is possible they are spreading that to wilder kin. Do you profess the commercial raising of mink stop ????
But this topic isn't about" can you justify a game farm hunt" it is about " is anyone willing to admit they've done it?"
By rhe looks of the "wild Boar threads on most hunting related sites I'd say not many are willing to admit it except in their own company. Some people must as the exotic game ranches in Texas are making money. BB

I think there is a big difference in disease concerns between "mink" farming and "elk" farming. I don't think that mink confined in a cage have the ability to contract mange or rabies (they're probably vaccinated), compared to CWD which there is no vaccine or way to prevent it from getting across a fence. You are correct...Texas game farms do make money. However, it isn't cheap to pack into the high country with an outfitter to chase wild elk either.

I'll admit...never done it...never will.

MG

you don't know much about mink farming for sure! Escapees are common .

and there is a difference between mink and elk if you're a wild mink and a escapee comes across your path.

You are trying to rationalize and I ain't buying.

Ballbuster, I take it you're from Texas?

I am going to give you guys a couple of examples and you tell me what you think ok? I have Deer that I feed in my back yard over the winter months. These are wild deer no fence nothing to keep them here they come and go as they please. So if I wanted to I could sit in my garage and shoot them out the window of it is that Hunting? I consider it a shoot plain and simple. Now by the end of december I can walk out the door and on to my deck wich is only 20 yards from where they feed and they do not even run most of the time they stand there and look at me then either walk away or start to feed again and like I said these are wild deer. So if I have wild aniamls I can get this close to how close can you get to the ones in the fence that are eating at the game feeder? Now nothing pisses me off more than the outdoor channel when they hunt ranches and shoot all these deer and call it a trophy and act like they went out did all the work give me a break Then you have farmers that live around here asking me if I hunt like that when I ask them for permission to hunt on there land what kinda example are these so called hunters giving the rest of the world? By the way NO I DO NOT HUNT LIKE THAT!! If someone told me I am just upset because I could not afford a hunt like that to my face I would slap the taste out of their mouth! For what I spend every year chasing wild Whitetails I could easily afford a couple of these hunts. I can drive an hour from here and shoot a Buffalo for 600 bucks but I wouldnt call it hunting I would call it what it is a shoot. I might just go do it for the meat same with a Hog but I sure as hell wouldnt call it hunting! As for the so called hunters that go to these places then look down at other people who are out there on their own in the wild just remember this you can have all the money you want and (Buy) all the animals you want but you can not buy hunting skills and if you every go up against the average hunter that has hunting skills I might add you will get your ass handed to you every time!!!!

dakor: for the record I don't shoot the deer that come to my feeder either. Mine is attached to the side of my tool shed, and I could legally sit on it's roof and stick a nice buck each fall with a carbon arrow, but what fun would that be. Yes they are wild deer and yes once they leave my yard they are legal game for the neighbors kid sitting in the fence row 300 yds away. and yes occassionaly he does kill one of them. it just isn't hunting to me.
Neither was the buffalo I killed for the meat, though I did actually hunt for him and had to belly crawl the last few hundered feet to make a long shot on him. Know what that bison meat is damm good eating and I'd do it again for the meat. rather than pay some butcher for a neat little plastic wrapped steak not knowing where it came from. But I do not go around saying it was " a hunt of a lifetime".
The elk I kill each fall are free range wild elk and the hunt is about as hard as getting laid in a whore house with $50 in your pocket.
I'm luckier than most I can and do go on several hunting trips a year out of state. And I own a nice farm for hunting a few hours from my home that costed me more than 100 hunting trips to buy. BUT the places I have HUNTED for elk and deer behind high wire were just true hunting as anyother elk/deer I've killed and I DO call it huntingand have the heads mounted. Plus I ate ever scrap of the meat as well.
If I ever meet a hunter that sat in a box blind with air & heat on a 100 acre fenced preserve then shot a bull elk and calls it hunting . I'll hold him for you to slap the taste out of his mouth! But if you wish to imply that my opting to make an occassional trip behind a quality high wire with plenty of acreage to HUNT is inappropriate 'cause you do not do it, I WILL DO THE TASTE SLAPPING TO YOUR MOUTH. BB

BB that is good you do not shoot off your feeder now I will say this if you want to shoot one off of there it is your business but just dont call it hunting like I said it is a shoot. As to your question about if I think it is wrong you hunt or shoot on a ranch it all depends on the place and the land scape. I would say anything over a 1000 acres is probably more like hunting to me but also depends on the land scape like I said. I am not saying all fenced ranches are bad I have seen a few on the net or on tv that have thousands of acres lots of cover I dont have a problem with that what I have a problem with is what you said a little pasture where you can walk up to the animals and pull the trigger that is what really pisses me off so to speak.

Why not just "hunt" your dog when he runs around your fenced backyard?? It is the same thing as a deer or elk on a game farm.

Well,

Sorry to say I wouldn't and I also don't waste my time watching the Outdoor Channel.

To me, you either get off your ass, and get out and do it, or why waste time living someone else's SET UP "adventure" from off of the couch.

The USA has become too much of a country where everyone is lazy and would rather pay big bucks to go and have everything set up for them and completely done. At a local huge ranch here in Oregon, that covers some 20,000 plus acres, with access to some leased forest service land, NO ONE locally can afford to hunt.

However, those with big out of state money come to hunt it.
At 5 figures fees. Well it turns out, speaking with a soft spoken modest "guide" on the ranch ( one of the private hands who ranches before the "hunters" show up), their staff puts down about 50 % plus of the animals the Rich Tourists wound.

At those figures, the "guests" are guaranteed to go home with a trophy. 40 % plus of the time, it is shot by one of those that are ranch employees.

This place is one you don't get onto, just because you can pay the 5 figure fees. You also have to be pretty well connected in the first place.

Do I envy that, or am I jealous because I can't live that sort of life style???? NOT in a FRIGGIN, MILLION YEARS.

If I don't earn it, I don't need it, or want it.

Not all of us are lazy, born with a silver spoon in our mouths, spoiled rich kids, who hunt in a park essentially and then have the gaul to call themselves sportsman and hunter.

Once in my life, I hunted with a guy who was loaded. Flew to Northern Wisconsin in his private plane. Was a child hood friend of one of my hunting partners. Bought a new $1500.00 custom Browning BAR, with a $1500.00 imported European scope to go hunting ONE weekend!

Yeah, he shot the deer. At least he hit it. I put in down for him. Then it dawned on him he had to gut it. He could not legally leave it there, after he took the rack to mount ( which was a joke in size). So I gutted for him and hauled it out.

He offered to pay me $500.00 for hauling it out for him. I wouldn't take the money, I wouldn't take the meat. I was glad he had a good time and felt he accomplished something.

I was just glad he wasn't up there again next year.

Yeah I have enough guts to say it. Hunt in your park. I will hunt in what's left of the wilds that God gave us, and mother nature keeps until Silver Spoon Spoiled Kids ruin it.

I make a decent 6 figure income, but I still know the value of a dollar, and I still know the pleasures of HUNTING and ACCOMPLISHMENT.

I feel sorry for those who don't., and will never know.

cheers and good shooting
seafire

you know something Seafire? It may surprize you to know not everyone that can afford the $3000 gun/scope combos and go hunting on large parcels of private land was NOT born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Shit! I know I wasn't, I worked my way thru college and had a wife and 2 kids while doing it too!! I was raised on the very same farm I now own and hunt. More than likely my love for the land runs deeper than yours.
I can't help but feel you have more of a problem with those that can hunt that huge place in Oregon near you than you do of the hunting on that place. Also I'm pretty sure by your post that if it suddenly opend up for you locals only to hunt for free you'd be in there hanging stands faster than snot runs off a 3 yr old kid.
As far as hunting with an asshole like you did or claim to I only suggest you pick your hunting partners better next time or refuse the invite an head out to the crowded public lands where you can see orange coats every 100 yds or less then be happy popping a fawn if one does make as far as you. BB> (they don't call me a Ball buster for nothing )

Well Ball buster, You last phrase about they don't call you ball buster for nothing was probably right on. The rest of your post missed reality by a couple of light years.

However, we are all hunters and shooters on here, and I have learned I do not have to agree with a man to acknowledge his prospective. Be it right for him does not mean it is right for me.

I am also not so shallow to think that those that do not see eye to eye with me are necessarily wrong. To each their own.

But I don't hunt where you see Orange every hundred yards.
If I can, then I get in my old Toyota 4WD and go find somewhere else where their are not that many WALMART hunters out there.

Coming home empty handed does not bother me one bit. I am there to enjoy myself. Getting a trophy is not a goal.

If that property was open to kids, that would make me respect the owner all the more. IN Oregon, they have youth hunts on public land, that are just as good. I know Ted Turner opens up his Montana property for youth hunters. Ted has my respect for that.

But no, this Boy isn't going to hunt in a Park or a Private Zoo.
It is akin to fishin' in a barrel, and well, that is not a lot of fun in my world.
Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

seafire: you missed a big word ....HUNT did you forget that on a big chunk of private land ( or even a small one) that you must still HUNT to find the game. in my case I HUNT with a bow. And no matter how you cut it no deer,elk,etc. is going to let you just walk up to within 25 yds and lower the boom on it. That game animal doesn't know it is private land does he? Those signs at the gate aren't written for him to read are they?
you remind me of the guy that complains that with todays equipment like Super cubs a hunter can be into backwoods AK in a matter of hours. Compared to a pack train trip of the 50's when it took 2 weeks to get back there. BUT once there the hunting is no different now then 50+ yrs ago...is it? BB.

B.Buster:

I saw on one of the other posts, that you mention your service to our country.

To men of your stature, I can only bow my head, pray for you and your family to have good health and a long life.

Stand and proudly shake your hand, and thank you for serving our country.

I yield with respect to any opinion that men who have served our nation as you have, regardless of who they are, and keep my mouth shut, if my opinion differs from yours.

My hat is gratefully off to you sir.!
Cheers.
Seafire

I'll try to make a few observations without getting in to a real war here...

(As a matter of introduction, I haven't yet hunted behind a game fence.)

In the early 90's two friends and I went to Colorado to bowhunt for elk. We arranged for an outfitter (Larry Amos) to pack us in on horseback to his drop camp 10 miles into the Flat Tops Wilderness area. They came back in 10 days and packed us out. During those 10 days, the only other humans we saw were 2 hikers a ways off.

That was probably the most enjoyable hunt I have ever been on in the U.S.

Based on that experience, I could proclaim that true wilderness bowhunting is the only valid type of hunting.

I could say that people who hunt with scoped rifles have an unfair advantage.
I could say that those who use ATV's aren't REAL hunters.
I could say that those who stick to their well-used tree stands are only wannabe hunters, and should be out stalking game.

But I won't. Because I haven't been elected to the position of S.E.H.E.M. (Supreme Emperor of Hunting Ethics for Mankind).

Since I haven't hunted behind fences, I won't sit here and tell everybody what it's like, based on my pre-conceived ideas ("like shooting fish in a barrel").

I think we all realize that there is large ranch hunting and there is "canned" hunting.

IMHO, if I have chased a game animal into a corner of a fenced area, and its escape is prevented by the fence, it no longer matters how many million acres are inside the fence, it is not ethical to shoot it for sport.

IMHO, if game animals have become accustomed to human/mechanical feeding schedules, and have lost their fear of man, it doesn't matter if there is a fence or not, it's not hunting truly wild animals.

IMHO, if a game animal has a normal home range of one mile, and you surround that animal with a fence 2 miles away, and do not feed it, it may never know it is fenced. So now it becomes unethical"? I think not.

I have seen these arguments (and yes, even personal attacks) in other arenas as well.
As a woodworker, I have read the words of those who charge that "True woodworkers don't use all these modern power tools - those are just crutches that compensate for lack of skill. REAL woodworkers use only hand tools (preferable antique)".


I suppose there is simply a base tendency for those who go the extra mile in any endeavor to belittle those who don't.

Some muzzle-loader hunters want inlines to be banned.
Some archers want compounds to be banned.
Some hunters who stalk wild game to within 50 yards want long-range shooting banned.


It seems that although this is a forum for people with similar interests to exchange ideas, when we get together, we reserve most of our passion for the topics that divide us. < !--color-->

Y'all be careful out there....


Rick.