I, like so many other big game hunters, have worried about achieving the holy grail of 1 MOA, or better, groups with my big game rifles. And when I read all the claims found in this, and other, forums of so many people that always shoot MOA and sub-MOA accuracies with their big game rifles, I wonder what I am doing wrong. Because with the way I determine my big game rifles' accuracies, I have yet to get them to CONSISTENTLY shoot 1 MOA. But what may shock some of those who make MOA claims, I don't really CARE if my big game rifles EVER shoot 1 MOA, or less, consistently.

Over the years, I've concluded that most of the time and effort spent worrying about the best load, the least runout, the lowest BC, the flattest trajectory, the highest muzzle velocity, the most anal brass preparation is mainly for entertainment purposes. It keeps us occupied, and we love tinkering. We believe we are better able to bag that deer, elk, bear, moose, etc. if we get the group shrunk down another 1/4 inch. And we love to tell others that our big game rifle is a MOA shooter.

Well, this is how I see it, and I've been looking at it for a bunch of hunting seasons now:

1. If my big game rifle doesn't shoot 1 MOA off the bench, the problem is darn near always ME! I don't need to improve the trigger, or the load, or cryo the barrel. I need to shoot better!

2. Even the slightest wind, when shooting for accuracy, will increase groups so the 1 MOA goal is very difficult for me to achieve repeatedly.

3. On those rare days when there is zero wind, AND I am feeling really good, AND my nerves are steady as steel, AND I keep my barrel at a nice constant temperature when shooting groups, AND the sandbags are set up just right on the concrete table, I actually WILL get some 1 MOA groups. Oh heck, let me join in with the others...my big game rifles shoot sub-MOA groups. There I said it. And it is true! Except it doesn't happen very often, and it happens only under the very best, controlled conditions.

4. In real life big game hunting where I hunt, it can be windy, cold, wet, snowy, rainy, and just flat miserable. I can be cold, wet, tired, stiff, hungry, out of breath, and often a combination of these. Lots of times the best rifle rest available when I take a shot is a rock, and I'm scrunched up behind it. All this makes MOA accuracy claims pretty irrelevant.

5. 300 yards in the mountains and forests, under the conditions stated in #4, is an awfully long shot when you want to make that quick, clean, 1 shot kill.

6. The kill zone of a big gam animal is at LEAST 6 inches in diameter.

So when I consider all of the above, I'm tickled pink when my big game rifles achieve 2 MOA accuracy repeatedly, consistently, in cold weater, in hot weather, in wet weather, in dry weather, EVERY time, EVERY day, ANY month of the year...AND, the POI does not change, regardless of how wet, how cold, how dry, and how hot the weather conditions are. And I've found that keeping a consistent POI year round is a lot harder than a person thinks. This, to me, is accuracy.

And the only way I can verify this accuracy is to shoot a LOT year 'round, and spend more time honing my shooting skills, and spend less time worrying about shrinking my groups another 1/4 inch to get 1 MOA accuracy.

I spilled my guts. Your turn. roy p.

The more mechanically accurate my rifle,the more it can cover my human induced errors.

An extremely accurate rifle,is a superb platform from which to base things(my opinion). Simply put,a one inch gun doesn't much interest me,because it is so easy to eclipse that level of accuracy.

Confidence is a subtle thing and I want all I can get. An excellent shooting rifle both boltsters confidence and the actual application.

Your mileage may vary...............

For most game hunting a rifle that shoots into 1.5 MOA is just fine. Most do better than this and with some work they will do about 1.25 or so. Such a group will stay on most game up to 300 yards and satisfies me.

I can shoot most rifles well. Just because a rifle does not group into 1/2" at 100 yds does not stop me from trying.

My main concern is the first shot from a cold barrel and where it hits. This is more important than a group per say. I have a 1969 vintage Ruger #1A that used to shoot about 1.25" at 100 yds but it always stayed sighted in. That rifle took a lot of game. Now it has a better barrel on it and it gets under an inch once in a while but I don't pay that much attention.

Some member here who has some fancy custom rifles says that they shoot into 1/2" at a hundred so I guess that's their standard but not mine.

I welcome anyone to come out to the range with me however. One of these custom rifle owners was going to show me his super gun. I have an old M 70 in .300 H&H that's waiting to meet his rifle.

Roy P,

You are absolutely right in a "PRACTICAL" sense. But being keener than the average shooter how could we stop ourselves from going through the whole process before we say to ourselves 2 MOA is enough.

I'll bet even with what you know now if you bought a new factory big game rig tomorrow that only did 2 MOA you wouldn't be able to stop yourself from trying to improve it to get to 1 MOA.

1 MOA is not necessary for a big game outfit but it certainly instills confidence & pride of ownership which is important.

With regards to the points you raise:

1. A trigger job is not very expensive and almost always will improve your shooting.

2. The wind is not likely to be a factor in shooting at 100 yards unless it is a gale for a big game calibre.

3. How would you know that your rifle is really a 2MOA rig day in day out in all weather conditions unless you shot it a lot at the range. Then you may as well try to find the best load, any problems with bedding etc. should then be evident.

4. Totally agree with you on the range thing. 300 yards is awfully long, 200 yards is still long IMHO. I have not done a lot of big game hunting but in my limited experience we glass them at 200-500 yards then we usually stalk until you get within 100 yards. The scrub bull I shot with my .375 H&H was no more than 60 yards away afetr being spotted about 500 yards away.

5. Well its called Big Game Hunting & usually the target is BIG & not that far away. So 2 MOA or even 3 MOA would do. But if my bolt gun could only do 3 MOA for 3 shots I'd call that a lemon & sell it for a better one.

The quest for small groups and reliability of operation need not be mutually exclusive.

Roy - good post! I love tinkering with my loads and my rifles. Am fortunate to have several which are real gee-whiz accurate. Amazingly enough I've happily bagged deer with a .50 cal Thompson-Center White Mountain Carbine and big greasy 385 grain bullets. This thing shoots about 3" - 4" groups at 100 yards. That's been plenty good enough for one-shot kills within the range limitations of the rifle. Is it heresy to hunt with such a rifle? All the kills were within 50 yards and the deer fell right where they were hit.

On the other hand, I've got a 7mm Rem mag Sendero, fully capable of .5" groups (or better) at 100 yards. It will also hold that half MOA accuacy out to 500 yards. Great long range rifle. Using it, I passed on a 450 yard shot at a genuine trophy class mulie buck last fall - everything wasn't perfect, and I didn't want to risk a wounded animal a quarter mile away - with a deep canyon between me and the deer. Under perfect conditions, with a better rest, I would have taken that shot. I've practiced for it.

That wonderful accuracy is fun to achieve, but I know too many guys who have trophy rooms filled with big game taken with 1.5 - 2" rifles to make super accuracy a requirement. Reasonable accuracy, absolute reliability, and solid terminal performance count for more than tiny groups at the target range. Regards, Guy

"SMALL" is a relative term. I'm sure we all have run into the fellas that are happy when they can keep 5 in a paper plate at 100yds from a rest. On the other hand I dont consider myself overly picky but I'm not happy with my cf bolt guns or single shots unless I can keep em under an inch. If I want to shoot a particular bullet..I'll tinker with several powder, primer and col combos until I either get it to shoot or give up and move on to the next projectile. I guess its all about how you choose to spend your time and your comfort level with your gear.

When I get a new rifle & start working up loads for it, I strive to get 1MOA. If the best I can get is 1.5MOA, and it's consistant, then I am fine w/ that for a big game rifle. I won't give up terminal perf. to get better accuracy (SMK vs NP). My .338-06 has shot several sub 1MOA groups, but I think it is realisticly a 1.5MOA rifle. It has never shifted POI & the 1st shot has always landed true. Good enough for this hunter!
I think ofr most of us it's a confidence thing. If my rifle shoots well then I must be doing something right.

[ 03-06-2003, 06:07: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

IMHO, trophy rooms are wonderful to look at but not necessarily indicators of good judgement or ability. What you can't see in a trophy room is who did the work to find the animal and what kind of job the hunter did when taking the animal. A gut-shot animal with a nice rack, big horns, etc. that was pointed out by a guide and recovered the next day will still look impressive in trophy room. Some people even buy other people's mounts for their trophy rooms or mount animals they find that were shot by other careless hunters!!!

In the same hands, an accurate rifle is capable of taking game at longer ranges than an inaccurate rifle and capable of taking animals "better" at any range. I want animals I shoot to drop as quickly as possible and that's why I want my weapons to be as accurate as possible. If you don't mind watching game run off, tracking them, and possibly not recovering them, I guess any level of accuracy is acceptable.

In reality , a 1.5 MOA rifle is perfectly adequate right out to 400 yards ..........

Oh come on!! You're all missing the point!!! With hunting rifle in hand, small groups are absolutely essential.... small groups of deer, small groups of elk, small groups of pronghorn... each group made slightly smaller!

Small groups do instill confidence. One knows that if he holds right the bullet will hit the target.
However, I am not sure that a sub MOA rifle makes up for human errors. In fact, I think the wibbles of the less accurate gun might offset the wobbles of the shooter.

In any case, I do not know of anyone who can shoot moa groups when shooting at game in the field. If one does not have some nervous feelings, then he does not like to hunt. The terrain often prevents a good steady position, and in my experience, over 50 years, a prone position is not very likely to be available. Therefore, go to the range, stay off the bench, shoot out to 500 yards from any position except prone, and see how you can group. Then try prone and see if you can shoot moa groups. Sure, those who win the 1000 yard matches might, but even they will not do it on the side of a mountain or the low cacti of the southwest.

Working with a rifle to get the best accuracy with hunting loads is fun. It is not necessary to get 1 inch groups. You will never know the difference in the field.

I read of those who want 28 inch barrels so they get the max velocity, and maybe they think accuracy even that is not the case. But when you carry a rifle more than you shoot it, I would rather have a 22 or 24 (in a Magnum) inch barrel and the rifle with scope weigh not more than 8 lbs and get 1.5 moa than to have a sub moa rifle with a 26 or 28 inch barrel that weighs 9 -10 lbs.

Jerry

[ 03-06-2003, 07:14: Message edited by: JerryM ]

Here is the story of a guy who was not happy with 1.25" groups and now has 1" groups. Not only that he is also happy as the recoil is less. Of course his rifle used to weigh 7.5 lbs and now it's 8.75!

www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/model_70_makeover/

Big stick hit the nail on the head.The more accurate the gun the more room for human error.

I recently picked up an old book and found some interesting tidbits of shooting lore in it today. The author was talking about discipline and concentration and he stated that while greater accuracy is obviously atainable with a scoped rifle, that a higher degree of discipline can be realized with open sights because they require a greater level of concentration.

I am much more interested in trimming the fat from my own "wobble zone" than placing bullets in the same hole from a bench. But both are fun and challenging and all practice is good and usefull.

Is 1 MOA asking to much of a rifle? I may be lucky but with a little effort on my part I have managed to get at least consistent 1 MOA 3 shot groups out of all but one of the bolt action rifles I have purchased in the last few years.

The smaller the rifle groups the better I feel about hunting with it.

It would feel very strange going afield with a rifle that couldn't do MOA from a rest in good conditions.

I would feel very strange if I couldn't do MOA or near as damn it from a high seat with a rail in hunting conditions at a still deer that's not very near cover (where a bit more speed is in order)

Some deer are not big. 1.5MOA plus a bit of wind plus some range plus some shooter induced error can be darn near off the target on a small deer. Deer rarely stand perfect broadside, given a partial target in a window of twigs it's nice to have the confidence that you can hit it in the eye if needs be.

Roy, I really liked your post - not that I can't see the points of all the other distinguished members. I'm also guilty of desperately wanting my guns to be really accurate - although I'm not sure I'll ever get there. That does not stop me from dreaming and spending more cash - hey that is what life is for, isn't it??

What I do find, is that in order to move towards the goal of the "ultimate", sub-moa, this-that-and-the-other big game rifle, I have to use all of my (limited) range time on shooting from the bench. I know, though, that what I should really be doing is improving my shooting skills - by shooting from "hunt-like" positions. It will bring me a ton more in the field in terms of confidence, speed and just plain old experience. Practicing brings a bunch more than decreasing group sizes from 1.5 to 1.25"...

Sometimes it is good to see things in perspective. I don't know what it is like in your end of the world, but here hunters always seem to live in an ideal world: their gun is always the most accurate on the block, it fits them like a glove - both for open and optical sights, they never miss a shot and their animals always fall over dead immediately because of the "wonder bullet" they use. Unfortunately, experience tells me that you have to deduct at least 50% from each statement, and that still leaves room to move... Or maybe it is just me who has guns shooting larger groups than I'd like, who can't use open and optical sights with the same rifle stock, misses shots from time to time, and have animals run off - inspite of all the effort of choosing the right caliber, the right bullet and hitting them the right place. It must be me...



- mike

Nebraska.......the theory of a hair-splitting big-game rifle is nice , but in the real world a 1.5 MOA rifle works . I have made and seen made too many long shots with rifle/ammo combos that would in reality , do no better than 1.5 MOA on paper .

A TRUE 1.5 MOA rifle means that your bullet will not hit farther than 3 inches from where you hold the sights at 400 yds.

And personally , wind would have no bearing on a shot like that , as if it is windy , 400 yards is too far to shoot at a game animal, no matter what sort of rifle you have in your hands .

who is it hurting to have the absolute most accurate hunting rifle you can? There is no requirement or law that a rifle must shoot any certain size group to be legal to take game...so dont let someone elses idea of an accurate rifle cloud your judgement....and just let those that want to split hairs do so....everything else being equal, they should wound less game having a more accurate rifle...it is possible to have hunting rifle that shoots less than 1/2 moa! they are built all the time....in a prudent mans hans the more accurate rifle may just allow the hunter to stay in the vitals as apposed to wandering off towards the paunch....of course in a careless mans hand, it really dont matter what rifle he has...he may see his prize and will shoot in any condition....one of the most omportant thing to know is exactly what YOUR rifle will do and accepts its limits......bob

roy p, I'm one of those guys who talks about my MOA hunting rifles. I'm blessed with a few good rifles, it took me over a year of tinkering with my M70 .30-06 to get it shoot 1 MOA on a good day, it's a consistent 1 1/2 to 2 MOA on average, but I love the rifle and have killed deer out to a a little beyond 400 yds with it, which is my max range. I admit it, I love tinkering with stuff! I got bored last week and wanted to try to put together some rounds for my .30-06 with H380 simply because I'd rather load H380 than 4350 because it meters better and it's a very accurate powder. The H380 load won't kill any better, it's just different and fun to tinker with. I don't need a validated reason to do something other than to see if it works or if it can be done.I try out lots of the tips on here just to try them and see what works and what is baloney. Last night I went out and got he ingredients for Ed's Red bore cleaner and mixed up a gallon, I have plenty of other cleaners, but if it works well and I made a gallon for about ten bucks, I'm coming out on top.
I think you're right, those of us who do get MOA out of our hunting rifles love to tinker and screw around, reloading is number one or two on my favorite hobbies list, and is a great way to pass the time in the winter. I hunt with a guy who reloads, but he doesn't care about groups, if it's a 3 inch group, he'll hunt with it because it's the fastest out of his .270. He kills just as many deer as I do, doesn't try quite as long of shots, but he reloads to save money, not as a hobby or for fun. I love reloading, if I couldn't do it I'd go nuts. I work on cars to save money, I enjoy it a little, but I'm not into the greasy cro-magnon aspect of working on my vehicles, I just don't want to pay $50/hour shop time. Reloading I love to do, I'm always looking for more ways to prep cases or improve anything, I just love dinking in my basement, it's my getaway and I love it! Don't be unhappy if you don't shoot MOA, the deer will never know the difference!
Yardbird

What Big Stick and Nebraska said,ditto.
An accurate rifle is like a good bird dog.
A bad one cost just as much to feed as a good
one,which do you want to hunt with?
Jeff

21 responses in less than a day. Thanks, everyone. You all are wonderful people. It was scary typing my original message. I thought I'd get raked over the coals. Instead, all of you wrote very courteous and thoughtful replies.

I read somewhere that if you shot 5 3-shot groups, the largest group would be three times the size of the smallest group. Based on my own experience, this is true. And based on my experience when shooting at the range, I need a little bit of time to "fine tune" my rifle to shoot its best for the conditions of the day. After fine tuning, when I shoot for accurate groups I can approach 1 MOA pretty frequently. But what about the first few groups of the day? And what about the last few groups of the day when I am beat? They are not my best groups. Sorry, but I must look at those groups also when determining the accuracy of my rifle.

If you were to ask me to throw my rifle in my truck, head for the range, and squeeze off 3 shots and guarantee that they'd fall in a 1 MOA group, chances are good that I couldn't do it. And this is how we all hunt. We spend hours, days walking around in the woods in poor weather. Sometimes the rifle is wet and icy. The rifle has been knocked around a bit from carrying it so much. Could your rifle shoot MOA right then and there, even if you had a concrete bench? Maybe it could. Would you bet the farm on it. I'll bet not.

I judge my rifles accuracy not on the best groups it shoots when it is shot under controlled conditions, but on the groups it shoots under bad conditions. Because that's when it matters. I like to go to the range when it is snowing to see just what it will do under those conditions. My rifles don't shoot as well as they do in winter as they do in more moderate weather. 2 MOA in bad conditions with very little POI shift is great. I'll take it and I'm happy.

I keep over two years worth of targets in several 3 ring binders. I may not be anal about brass prep, but I am about comparing targets over the long haul. I compare group size, group shift, notes on the weather , and any other miscellaneous notes I wrote on the targets. This gives a TRUE measure of a rifle's accuracy. I'd love to tell you that my rifle shoots MOA. I'd be lying if I did. It's 2 MOA over the long haul.

I gotta tell you, I have extreme confidence in my rifles. I know where they hit. I know how much the accuracy degrades as the conditions move farther from ideal. I know how much POI shift occurs in different seasons. I know that my shooting skills degrade while wearing expedition weight long johns, heavy shirt and pants, insulated coveralls, gloves, wool hat and a daypack. I know that a MOA rifle under ideal conditions becomes a 2 MOA, at least in MY hands. roy p.

I guess I don't handle "reality" well. I still strive to get my rifles to shoot in 1 inch at 100. I've been successful which translates into confidence in my rifle. Tinkering also gives me more practice shooting which may be just as important!

Bob257

I think Roy makes some excellent points. There are other points that are well made also. I'd like to add a different perspective: When Roy Weatherby brought out his line of hyper velocity rifles, kenetic energy was all the rage. Gun hacks wrote that a poorly hit animal was knocked dead in his tracks by kenetic engery. And now these humungous scopes everyone loves. You can count the ticks in an elks ear at 1000yds. Tempting you to shoot far beyond your ability. And, modern technology has raised the accuracy bar considerably. One of the post said a super accurate rifle would compensate for human error. Another talked about making "iffy" shots under challenging conditions. Maybe we need to spend more time at the range eliminating the human errors and less time weighing cases. More time afield learning how to stalk so there would be fewer "iffy" shots.
Learn to shoot that two inch shooter. Get comfortable with it. I'll assure you, you'll be a better hunter.

Please excuse my ignorance, but isn't the best group a single caliber hole from what ever you're shooting in the kill zone placed by your first shot. At least if the target is a game animal and not paper.

Almost all new bolt action rifles are more accurate than the shooters behind them. This forum might be the exception, but the average hunter is not a tack driving machine. I know at least 10 people that can make your 1/2 MOA rifles seem like 1.25-1.5 MOA rifles(even with sandbags,rests,good tables ect..) 1/2 MOA rifles would only give them something to brag about around a campfire, even if it took an outsider to prove that thier gun could shoot that well. They would kill no more or less game because of it.

GTR

All good posts, one and all. I agree with all, a most unusual situation.

But nobody has mentioned live game although I did read some of the posts rather fast since I have limited time today. (The girls basketball team from my home town won the district and region championship and today they play in the opening round of the state championship. I have to leave and drive half way across the state to see the game. I wouldn't miss it for the world!)

I believe I owe the game I hunt a quick, clean kill. That is what drove me to reloading and what drives me to extremes in accuracy. Therefore, I carry the most accurate rifle I can and I shoot it often before I set foot in the field. I would not go afield with a dull knife. Why carry a rifle that is "dull"? But that has to do with my love of tinkering. Back when I was reading hunting stories, the gun gurus thought 2 MOA was excellent. My 300 short does 3/4 MOA. My old 300 Win Mag did the same until the barrel wore out. Maybe I've been lucky; but I'll take the small groups.

I agree with Big Stick.

At one time I was happy with a gun that would keep all it shots into 2 inches @ 100. Then I ended up with a factory rifle that would put 10 bullets into less than than that at 200 yards, easily. That rifle made a difference in my shooting abilities. I grew more confident as well as my success with it. Since then I will accept nothing less than a M.O.A rifle. It is usually only a few dollars more away. I don't mind supporting my gunsmith either.
The other guy can shoot the 2" @ 100 yard rifle.

Daryl

Everybody has different conditions,regarding critters and terrain,so tastes in rifles are diverse. Hunting styles are gonna differ to. Those differences will likely be translated into the very rifle that folks most often tote.

My preferences are towards a light/handy rifle,that is built bulletproof and of extreme accuracy potential. Such a tool is very well rounded and quite at home in a broad spectrum of applications. She can go long or do battle at spittin' distances,as it matters not.

Very nice accuracy is not a million dollar quest. In fact,very good accuracy is often just a couple subtle tweaks away and housed within many more rifles than most folks would imagine. I can't fathom not extracting that potential,when it is there for the taking.

Funny how some folks will argue with a fury,over a pet load or bullet,but will be utterly tickled,with only a portion of their rifle's accuracy potential.

My train of thought differs,in that I want it all and working in harmony. My distinct preference is a robust projectile,launched from a very accurate rifle,that is ruggedly built(so as to promote a maintained zero and not suffer wondering POI due to atmospheric or other conditions).

Those tastes are why I seldom deviate from known quantities,who's attributes were learned by me through trial and error. My preference is a Remington 700 based rifle wearing a McMillan stock and a high end S/S barrel,while looking through Leupold glass.

Such a concoction will reliably eclipse 1MOA(understatement),with even me yanking the trigger and from a field rest. Accuracy is not an accident,nor is practice and I'm believer in the both of them going hand in hand.

I want the utmost in confidence,via the tools I carry for the job. I believe the elimination of variables,makes a better end product and ups the odds.

A guy can most certainly make his own luck and increased accuracy potential is never a bad thing.

YOUR mileage may vary,but I've seen both sides of the coin and such choices are easy to make................

Weather it be 1 or 2 MOA that you feel is enough for your hunting needs the one thing that we all can agree on so far is that practice and knowing what you and your rifle are capable of will make you a better hunter.

Personaly I need at least 1 MOA for confidence but as touched on above in a few posts there are many that are happy with 5 shots in a paper plate at 100 yards. I would garantee you that more game is wounded and lost by this type of hunter than by any one who is hunting with a 2 MOA rifle and knows it. IMHO

To paraphases one of Big Sticks posts: the more I practice, the more accurate my rifle is.

I believe there is much merit to a good Indian using good arrows.

Further,I know of no situation in which a less accurate rifle is an aid,all things being equal...................

By the way....RoyP had very good points about accuracy under all conditions and for the "long-haul". True.....very true.

[ 03-07-2003, 00:04: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

I wonder how much traffic http://www.inaccuratereloading.com would generate??? Probably not very much!!

This forum is titled Accurate Reloading so have at it. However when the topic is hunting rifles this obsession with benchrest size groups misleads some. Most I am sure just dismiss this discussion and know that it's not a major factor such as the actual hunting, the correct bullet and velocity for the game and the great variable marksmanship and judgement. Group size in a hunting rifle is more a subset of shot placement and a rifle that delivers it's first shot from a cold barrel is far more valuable than one that just shoots tiny groups.

I have gone around on topics like this. Go to a sailing forum and ask what boat to get and soon enough you will be incrementalized up to a Beawolf 66 for Lake George.

Take this topic over to varmints and you have more of a point but groups less than 1.25 MOA are a want and not a need for big game at normal ranges.

Don,

I agree with your point about the first shot from a cold barrel. Your mention of "normal ranges" is likely biased by the areas you hunt. Where I hunt, there is one spot that the minimum distance for a shot is just over 400 yards due to the animals travel patterns and terrain. I have a friend who's made that shot(404 yards ranged) but I won't even attempt it because I don't feel I'm up to snuff at that distance under hunting conditions(at least at this time). Doesn't mean I don't want to though!!!