Gentlemen:

How does the .30-06 Improved rate as an Ackley Improved cartrdige? Is there much of an improvement in velocity? I am curious what velocity the Scirroco 180 grain (or similar weight bullet) will do on that cartridge. More precisely, how much of a velocity improvement can one expect over an unimproved .30-06. The .338-06 is appealing too, but I don't know that I really need to be able to throw a 225 grain bullet. This will be an elk rifle---but not a pasture cannon. Just something efficient and adequate. I am limited to a -06 bolt face (HVA action) and looking to get the most bang for my buck given that action.

Thanks,

Jordan

Nosler Manual #4 shows 180 gr bullets at 2985 fps from a 24" barrel. Charge is 62 grains of RL22 and WLR primer. MM

Its a good round but not much improvement from a practical point of view...

You can beat it to death with Hornady or Federal enhanced std. 30-06 ammo....

you could convert your 06 to a 30-338 and then you would have something...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray:

I have considered the .338-.06 and need to research it further. It seems to receive a good deal of praise. Why is this so? Is it especially efficient at that bore diameter or what? How does it compare to a .338 Win Mag or similar .338s on the lower end of the power scale. Is there really enough powder to move .338 bullets at adequate velocities?

Thanks,

Jordan

Jordan,
The 338 Win is head and shoulders a better round than the 338-06 will ever be...

Wildcats are toys to have fun with and so people can make up stories to justify them like less recoil, more efficient, and a bunch of other hype..the only real justification for the 338-06 is because it warms ones heart....that applies to about all wildcats....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

You don't gain more than a 100-150fps in the 30-06 AI.

The 338-06 does offer a step up though. It gives excellent ballistics with 210 grain Nosler, and Barnes makes much lighter bullets for it. Obviously, it isn't the 338 Win Mag, but it isn't all that far behind it.

A choice elk rifle.

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Live Free! Madison, Jefferson and all the boys paid for it, and so did our very own fathers.

I have a 30-06 Improved along with 2 other 06's. It's an improved cartridge by the way and not a wildcat. Should you forget, loose or run out of ammo on that elk trip you can shoot standard 06's in that chamber. You will have to sight in again, that's all.

There is not much of a gain in velocity and it's not going to be that easy to sell an improved cartridge rifle as a standard 06.

I view the major problem with the 06 for western hunting to be trajectory and not killing power although both are necessary.

I would just buy another rifle for elk huntinng or use the 06 as it is.

Long ago the late outfitter and gun writer Les Bowman felt that recoil was a problem for most elk hunters. He was among the early proponents of the 7 mm Remington Mag.

Since that cartridge is quite popular it may be the way to go. I shoot the .300 Win. Mag for such purposes. That's a right answer too but the recoil is right up there.

I build 30/06 Improved rifles as long range target rifles only and think the cartridge works well for this purpose. It does a little better than the std cartridge with the 190 and 200 gr. bullets. Even at this though I think the WSM may do better.
Sticking with the std boltface (and there are good reasons to do so the main one being magazine capacity) I would be inclined to go with a std 06 or the 338-06. Another strong possibility would be the 35 whelen ( my favorite). Mostly I agree with Ray that non standard cartridges seldom offer enough (if any) advantage in the field to make them worth while. Regards, Bill.

Jordan, P.O. Ackley did not favor the 30/06 improved. Of course we have more powder choices today. That said I still feel the improved class of cartridges based on the 30/06 case are far too much work. Consider the fire-forming process, it will take longer to shoot those fire form loads in terms of barrel heat and waiting for it to cool. You will have the added cost of primers, powder and bullets for your fire form loads also. Why not put that money into an action with a magnum bolt face and be done with it. You could then consider the new 300WSM or the 30-338, 300win mag.

I do realize you have an action with a standard bolt face. I would opt for a standard 30/06 chambering with a 24" barrel. Work up loads with RL-22, H4350 or H4831 behind 180 gr bullets and you can't go wrong, the velocity might suprise you also. I killed alot of game(elk included) with Nosler's 165gr part. bullet at 2950fps mv out of my 1st 06. It shot pretty flat, not quite as flat as my 7mag 160gr but close enough for hunting purposes. sure-shot

If you are going to the trouble of switching barrels to upgrade a 30-06, why not step up to the 9.3 x 62? The 286 grain 366 bullet stands head and shoulders above typical '06 rounds, and factory ammo is available.

Don M,
According to Ackley the Improved cartridges are wildcats, I think your splitting hairs but I won't argue your logic.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Jordan,

Given the choice, from the information given, I would without doubt choose the 338-06 � preferably the Improved version, for case life and headspacing.
Having said this, I�m assuming your shooting distances do not exceed 250 yards.
To my mind the 338-06 is everything the 30-06 is and more (same goes for both improved versions) � this is especially true when dealing with large game such as Elk, which to my understanding is Kudu sized.

Fact one � assuming equal bullet construction and velocity � bigger and heavier bullets break big bones better and penetrate deeper than lighter ones, no one is going to dispute that.
You can�t always go for �behind the shoulder�, often the only shot available is quartering on to you or away from you.

Fact two: Trajectory wise, whatever velocity you can get from the �06�, you can get the same from the 338-06 with a bullet 30grs heavier, and the same Bal.coef.

Fact three: If you are regularly shooting past 250 yards at Elk, or any big animal of 500lbs or more, then neither is ideal, better to get a magnum 300 or 338. This is not to say they will not kill an Elk past 250, just that they are not ideal, there�s better available.

For what your looking for, I would go for the .338-06. I am however biased, you see I shoot a local calibre called the 338 Sabi, which is the ballistic equivalent to the 338-06 Imp, but at operating at lower pressures. I did this exercise three years ago, and chose the 338. JMHO

Bush baby.

There's nothing "efficient" about any wildcat cartridge except for the .458 Lott. Why anyone would want to complicate his life by going the wildcat route is beyond me.....

If I want more power and speed than the regular old .30-06 provides, I'll grab a .300 Winchester or .300 Weatherby and go hunting.

AD

Allen Day,

The .25-06, .22-250, 7-08, .260, .35 Whelen, .280 Remington, 7 STW, and others were all wildcats before they became factory offerings. If shooters hadn't "complicated their lives" by using & popularizing these great cartridges, they wouldn't be available from the factories.

I suppose we put up with the hassles of wildcats for the same reason lots of folks build kit cars or customize factory models - what the major companies offer does work, but does not evoke passion.

Gunmaking done well, cartridge wildcatting, building your own car or airplane are all vocations or avocations of passion. If you love it, it makes perfect sense. If you don't, it makes no sense at all.

By the way, why do you see the .458 Lott as an exception to all other wildcats regarding efficiency??

Best regards,
BigIron

[This message has been edited by BigIron (edited 09-26-2001).]

If you can't kill it with the -06, I don't see the ackley chamber as the solution, don't even think the 300 mags really help that much.

I'm a gun crank, and shoot wildcats. With that said, there is alot of wisdom in Ray and Allen's posts.

My primary hunting rifle is a 35 whelen ackley, from it's 24" tube, it pushes a 250 gr a-frame 2700 fps, this is a warm load, unfortunately groups open way up when I drop the powder charges.

Now, for the money you'd get from selling your -06, and cost of a new barrel, you could get a spanking new 338 win mag, will definately be a step up from an -06, will do anything the 338-06 can do, and the things it cant. Look at Noslers Data, you can load the 210 gr partition down to 2700 fps in the win mag, this is top drawer for the 338-06, and I doubt you'd notice the difference in recoil between the rounds.

So, if you want something different, go with a wildcat, they are fun and satisfying in their own right. The 338-06 sounds sexy, the 35 whelen makes a bigger hole, and has been around alot longer. The only difference between them and a 338 win mag is in your mind and on paper, any of the three will drop 1000 pound non dangerous game with authority out to 250-300 yds, that's what all the medium bores are known for. 30 cal and under are small bores, 40 and over are large bores. If you don't have a medium, and want one, go for it, there are several very suitable factory rounds, and a passel of wildcats.

As far as the 458 lott, it solves the shortcomings of the 458 win mag, has factory stamped brass available, and allows the firing of win mag shells in a pinch. The various 404 based 45's are better, but if your ammo parts way with you en route to your hunt, you are SOL. 458 win mag ammo is available anwhere dangerous critters are hunted, and ammo is shelved. I sold my 458 lott, and am having another 458 made on a 2.5" 404 case, I've never been partial to practicality, and don't plan to take it to Africa. If I had the means and desire to seriously persue dangerous game on the dark continent, I'd have D'Arcy echols build me a 458 lott, but I'm more of a gun crank and tinkerer.