Hello all,

I posted this message in another forum and it was suggested that I try it here as well. I appreciate everyones help in advance. And if anyone is going to the NRA show please feel free to say hello.

I am one of the appointed consultants working with the city of New Haven and US Repeating Arms to find a new manufacturer to make Winchester Firearms and keep Winchester in the US. I just posted the licensing terms that Olin has put out for the naming rights to Winchester. Please help out our effort by vising the website www.SaveWinchester.com and filling out the Speak Out section as all parties involved, the media and investors are watching the comments and general web traffic very carefully. The more traffic, the better our chances are. Thank you in advance for your help.


Mike

It's unfortunate the terms of the sale require that the new buyer make the 1300 shotgun in addition to the classic M94 and M70 rifles. There are still those who fondly remember the Model 12, the cowboy shooters are buying 1897 knockoffs from China, and the 101 & 23 doubles are works of art, but I've yet to meet the shooter who cares at all about any of the undifferentiated late production slide action or selfloading shotguns that wore the Winchester name. The shooting public is not lamenting the demise of the 1300; even the savewinchester web page does not list it on its "What is your favorite Winchester Gun?" or "Gun models interested in?" surveys. As for the M94 seems to me the Uberti is making very nice copies of the Henry, 66, 73, and 92; why not encourage them add the 94 to their stable? With regard to the M70 its seems to me the Dakota is charging about what it must cost to make an action of that complexity and quality in the USA. Good luck to you and your venture.

There are those of us who invested heavily in the 94 and 70 when the announcement was made that these models were "never to be manufactured again". This statement was made by the OLIN director of marketing on NRA Radio on sirrius radio, I listened to him live. I for one, would not look favorably on these models being re-introduced at the New Haven plant. If the company is revived and these models brought back, you will have a customer relations problem at best, lawsuits at the worst. Without these models, you will not have a viable compay. I would say you have many more problems than just finding a buyer and getting the plant reopened.

Mike Gun,

Sure, I hope Winchester firearms can survive. But all the "legalese" I saw signs of on that link makes me doubtful.

What happened to your factory in New Haven is happening to dozens here in the rust belt, S.E. Michigan in particular.

But I'm curious, now that the building is dark and there are no more paychecks, what's going to change? Is the city going to now become more business friendly? Are the Unions going to back off some of the demands? Are the workers going to be more efficient? Will the business need less in the legal budget, i.e. smaller lawyer bills? Can you reduce product liability costs? Are the corporate honchos going to be less greedy and perhaps live without a multi-million house in Florida?

Unless the answer is at least a partial "yes" to all of the above, you are all kidding yourselves.

MikeGun,
What value has Olin placed on Winchester? Why would they make demands that a buyer must make specific quantities and types of firearms. IMO this is the same thinking that put the company out of business in the first place. My understanding is that several US based companies have shown interest, but none have seen the opportunity to purchase the company and make a profit under the current rules. My guess is that Olin is waiting for the opportunity to move the company off shore. Sad to say I think that will be the future of Winchester.

quote:

There are those of us who invested heavily in the 94 and 70 when the announcement was made that these models were "never to be manufactured again". This statement was made by the OLIN director of marketing on NRA Radio on sirrius radio, I listened to him live. I for one, would not look favorably on these models being re-introduced at the New Haven plant. If the company is revived and these models brought back, you will have a customer relations problem at best, lawsuits at the worst.

So your lawyers will argue that the reintroduction of the M70 and M94 after the trademark owner promised certain models would never "be manufactured again" at a specific factory would constitute tortious interference in your interests as a speculator?

Mike,

I don't own Winchesters but good luck to you. If the plant was in a more 2nd Amendment friendly environment, I think you would have a better shot. The people of CT need to realize that the politicians they have elected don't care about the hardships of the firearms industry, no matter what their press releases say. They would rather blame Walmart for this and every other problem in the country. I hope Winchester returns, but they're going to have to do things differently.

From what I've head from others, building them at this plant would likely be a waste of time. A more modern, high quality facility would make them more competitive and that's what it's all about. If you wanted a custom quality and priced Winchester, buy a Hein action. They have to stay in the ballpark price of Remington and Ruger or bump up the quality and fit a notch and sell them for double the price and make them fit a smaller market at a higher profit margin per unit. Obviously selling them for more than a Ruger with similar quality doesn't work.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
There are those of us who invested heavily in the 94 and 70 when the announcement was made that these models were "never to be manufactured again". This statement was made by the OLIN director of marketing on NRA Radio on sirrius radio, I listened to him live. I for one, would not look favorably on these models being re-introduced at the New Haven plant. If the company is revived and these models brought back, you will have a customer relations problem at best, lawsuits at the worst. Without these models, you will not have a viable compay. I would say you have many more problems than just finding a buyer and getting the plant reopened.

sad thing is that buzzards like this really would kick an american icon when it's down and attempting to get up.

i've personally seen major examples of why winchester is headed the way of the dodo. mostly to do with zero quality control.

i agree that first and foremost quality would need to be addressed and then model 70's would have to approach model 76 costs.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
There are those of us who invested heavily in the 94 and 70 when the announcement was made that these models were "never to be manufactured again". This statement was made by the OLIN director of marketing on NRA Radio on sirrius radio, I listened to him live. I for one, would not look favorably on these models being re-introduced at the New Haven plant. If the company is revived and these models brought back, you will have a customer relations problem at best, lawsuits at the worst. Without these models, you will not have a viable compay. I would say you have many more problems than just finding a buyer and getting the plant reopened.

Absolutely ridiculous.... Talk about what is wrong with people today. You should be ashamed of yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
There are those of us who invested heavily in the 94 and 70 when the announcement was made that these models were "never to be manufactured again". This statement was made by the OLIN director of marketing on NRA Radio on sirrius radio, I listened to him live. I for one, would not look favorably on these models being re-introduced at the New Haven plant. If the company is revived and these models brought back, you will have a customer relations problem at best, lawsuits at the worst. Without these models, you will not have a viable compay. I would say you have many more problems than just finding a buyer and getting the plant reopened.

Clearly someone who has absolutely no clue what the difference is between "investment" and "speculation".


AllanD

Hello all,

Thank you for the great level of responses. To answer some of the questions this would be a whole new company with a completely new management team with few if any hold overs. The union contract is gone as this isn't a continued venture, but a new one. The City & State are looking to kick in significant incentives.

I think the general rules going forward will be thus:
1) LISTEN to your patrons
2) If its not Quality, it doesn't say Winchester
3) Traditional models with innovation introduced to the line and all the liability dodging stuff like rebounding hammers, cross bolt and tang safeties go away. Under the lawful commerce in arms act I don't see where they are required.
New models will have true innovations, some cheaper Push Feeds to compete with the value market and M70 Control Feeds that put everyone else to shame.


Sound good?

Mike

quote:

Sound good?

Yes. You'll forgive us though if we don't get too excited until we see some product. Good ideas for sure, but I for one have heard the mantra many times before only to find it a mere lip service/management tool...not a culture where it must be to work!

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
There are those of us who invested heavily in the 94 and 70 when the announcement was made that these models were "never to be manufactured again". This statement was made by the OLIN director of marketing on NRA Radio on sirrius radio, I listened to him live. I for one, would not look favorably on these models being re-introduced at the New Haven plant. If the company is revived and these models brought back, you will have a customer relations problem at best, lawsuits at the worst. Without these models, you will not have a viable compay. I would say you have many more problems than just finding a buyer and getting the plant reopened.

Absolutely ridiculous.... Talk about what is wrong with people today. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I agree. Who gives a shit about the vultures who have been trying to make a buck off of this since it was announced. Brings to mind the guys trying to sell M70 Expresses on Gunbroker for $3K. I hope these speculators lose their asses once these guns are being made again.

Sounds a bit like Lee Ioaccoca and Chrysler to me. Proof will be in the product.

MikeGun:

As a retired lawyer, I can sympathize with your apparent efforts to revive an old honored name in firearms.

However, as an old lawyer in whom habits die hard, I do have some questions. What exactly do you mean by your self description as an "appointed consultant"? And why do you post from St. Louis,MO - a long ways from New Haven,CT?

You may have noticed from some of the posts that Americans have gotten tired of corporate maneuvers involving the name of Winchester. (I got tired when something called " US Repeating Arms" took over)

If you told people who it is that you represent as an "appointed consultant" (A US Bankruptcy Court Judge- Magistrate?) and just what you have in mind for your client, you might get some friendlier and even more informative answers.

A very complex series of hurdles that need to be jumped. As much as I'd love to see Winchester up and running again ,I'm afraid it's got a snowballs chance in hell.

BuckeyeShooter,

You sir should be ashamed of yourself!

FN in MT

quote:

Originally posted by gerrys375:
MikeGun:

What exactly do you mean by your self description as an "appointed consultant"? And why do you post from St. Louis,MO - a long ways from New Haven,CT?

Olin has a plant in St. Louis...I think that is where the Winchester Ammo is made.

quote:

The union contract is gone as this isn't a continued venture, but a new one. The City & State are looking to kick in significant incentives.

Getting rid of the Union should be absolutely mandatory. Pay a fair wage and fair benefits (healthcare/retirement plan) but none of this UAW type stuff that has choked a lot of American companies into sending jobs overseas.
A gentleman at the NRA told me that the main problems Colt is having is because they cant really enforce quality control because of the unions.
If the Union is an issue move the company to TX or AZ.

quote:

1) LISTEN to your patrons

Your "patrons" want Dakota quality at Walmart prices.

quote:

2) If its not Quality, it doesn't say Winchester

Quality is adherance to a specification, not an absolute, and compliance comes at a price. What price point/quality level do you propose?

quote:

3) Traditional models with innovation introduced to the line and all the liability dodging stuff like rebounding hammers, cross bolt and tang safeties go away. Under the lawful commerce in arms act I don't see where they are required.

Liability-reducing design elements are not required by law in most states (yet); they are result of gun buyers/owners suing manufacturers for not making a gun a stupid person cannot misuse. It's all well and good for those of us who would never sue a gun maker no matter what to complain about rebounding hammers and crossbolt safeties but how do you propose to run a business with a price is no object liability insurance policy?

quote:

New models will have true innovations, some cheaper Push Feeds to compete with the value market and M70 Control Feeds that put everyone else to shame.

So you'll offer a ~$300 package gun with more innovations than a Remington 710 or Stevens 200 and offer a semi-custom M70 that runs with the Ruger MkII Express and Kimber Super America. You're going to be very busy...

quote:

Sound good?

Certainly sounds optimistic. So, what are your plans for the mandatory production of the 1300 shotgun?

Nordrseta:

Thank you for a most instructive post. (That's sincerely meant and not sarcasm)

Maybe some of our still remaining gun companies would be well advised to hire you as a spokeman (and that also is sincerely meant and not sarcasm)

While I believe there are some who sincerely want winchester to survive (in some form or another), I seriously doubt the majority of the gun-buying public (this is the group that would make a company profitable) give a rip. After all, they have rem, savage, and ruger to select from these days. I do hope the M70 returns, but I seriously doubt it will be manufactured on US soil. Hope I'm wrong!