Looking at alot of "discussion" on the merrits of various "last ditch bear medicine" in the form of handguns, shotguns, Short barreled carbines...How suceptable are bears to Hydrostatic shock?

I live in Africa and know nothing about bears...but when discussing stopping a dangerous animal here you have three options. a) Elephant- no such thing as shock so you need to punch a hole through to the vitals
b) Buffalo. If you use enough horesepower then there is some benefit but a .357 revolver is as good a "last ditch" handgun for buff as a .500 S&W. Shock as applied to buff starts with a .505 gibbs and anything less- well you need to put a hole through the brain or spine.
c) lion &leopard. very suceptible to shock. the bigger the handgun the better, but a high velocity small cal slug beats a big lov velocity one everytime.

just so I can make sence of peoples arguments

The short answer is that they aren't. You can turn a bear the same way you can turn other animals - hurt them badly. You stop them the same way you stop a buff - with a CNS shot. But poking them with a relatively light high velocity bullet and expecting the shock wave to stop them is a way to get a nasty surprise.

I think the comparison of the big bears to buffalo is quite a valid one. Having shot a few of each, I can tell you neither one appreciates it & is quite willing to take the arguement to you. The bear is similar in that he will lay in wait and try to trap you into his territory, but I believe he is quite a bit faster on his feet and much more deadly just because he has weight, claws, teeth etc. Both animals have the ability to "shake off" poor hits. also griz I believe have the ability to "reason" things out. Much more intelligent than buffalo, but not near as large. So far as speed goes, I think that the griz moves at least as fast as a lion, but not so much as leopard. All in all I feel going in after either animal in heavy cover with less than a 105mm is uncomfortable

I don't even think about shock when shootig a bear.

It's penetration and hitting vitals I'm worried about.

For defense, I'd want penetration, hitting vitals,breaking bone and preferably hitting the CNS.

Ganyana, I havn't killed any large African cats and only seen two leopards expire with spine shots. I have kiled two Tigers a long time ago in SE Asia and killed hundreds of house cats. My impression is that cats are highly succeptable to shock. Much more so than our big bears.
I do think bears are somewhat succeptable to shock as they often react to hits, even less than lethal ones, by immediately dropping but they recover almost as quickly as a cat and after that can be as tough and bullet proof as any game including buffalo. Of which I have only shot one so again am not an expert by any means.
In my experience the big bores from 458 on up do seem to get more immediate response than higher velocity rounds once the bears are wounded.
I do agree with Butchloc that bears seem to be able to reason and are amazingly fast. I wouldn't say as blazingly quick as a lion but in an intirely different league powerwise.
I do feel that their intelligence is usually to our benefit as they seem less likely to want to have anything to do with humans, even when wounded, but if cornered they are as formidible as anything. Big ones will weigh well in excess of a thousand pounds.

My experience is limited to black bears. But they are typical predators, very intelligent, alert, intolerant of others and unless they are small ones, very confident. They do not have the fine tuned nervous system of a cat.

I have not seen a bear react to a bullet impact like a cat does. Cats are definitly, in my opinion, unique. That includes feral domestic cats.

Bears, at least black ones, die easily if hit in the vitals. They are very suseptable to a broad head tipped arrow. Often not even running once an arrow passes through them. If the broad head doesn't hit any bones they don't seem to feel them. I witnessed that in Idaho last year and killed a magnificent boar and watched him die in front of me. My experience with bullet shot bears was they acted very much like deer. Took off running until they ran out of gas.

One bear I killed had an pass through arrow wound through both back legs right behind his knees. Someone made a pretty bad shot but it did not seem to bother him at all. I used a rifle on that particular bear and took his heart out. He managed all of 10 yards and gave an eerie death moan.

Last September I had a very different experience. I assisted a guide in New Brunswick in tracking another hunter's wounded black bear. The hunter had video of his shot and it appeared to all of us the bear was hit quite strongly and it was going to be an easy tracking job come morning. This was in some very thick cedar and tag alder swamp. There was a group of us, fortunately.

We ended up being extremely lucky that the man shot a small bear. It was wounded and we unknowingly ran into it in some high weeds when it got tired of trying to escape us. Previously to running into that bear we never heard it moving ahead of us but it was apparent after the fact that was what he was doing. Myself and the guide ended up a mere few feet from this very unhappy bear.

It was one of those situations where you knew something wasn't right in the back of your mind but that "something" nagged at you the whole time. I kept on the guide that the blood trail seemed fresh and he said it was wet because the frost was melting.

<<<nagging feeling>>>>



Guide was crawling and examining blood spoor and I was at his side tagging trees with surveyor tape. Ganyana I know you have felt that feeling you get when you see a pair of eyes looking at you from what seems like arms length from the depths of a thick patch of foliage.

Yep, I felt it.

Long story short, we were very lucky to not have been mauled or killed. That bear ran one last time. He was stuck in the shoulder with an arrow and so swollen and nasty it bothered me. He was at his limit, you could see it in his eyes. He looked at us long enough that you could read him, he was thinking, debating. Had it been a mature boar I probably would not be the same person I am now.

Lesson learned big time. Count me lucky. He was put out of his misery shortly after that. I wrote a story about it and if anyone cares to read the details it is available on another website. Just drop me a line and I will pass the link on.

I learn something new every day. I would have never guessed that there were that many stray cats in Alaska.

There are stray cats everywhere, including Alaska, but I was referring to my youth where I received a 50 cent bounty (per cat) from farmers to kill stray cats on their farms. Thirty in one morning was the most I ever shot on one farm. That was when 22 LR cost 49 cents and shorts were 29 cents. I felt like a rich lad.

30 in a day! When I was a kid I got 22shells for groundhog control work on a local golf course. I got a cart to use and could cover the whole course before school. I haven't had so much fun at work since.

I once shot a feral black cat with my 338 win mag in the body.It split the cat in half from end to end.It was a 200 gr bullet at around 3000 fps.I was suprised when the cat got up and ran.I shot it 3 times with a 22 lr with stingers in the body.I had to finally wack it in the head with a stick.I guess they have nine lives.If you ever watch Mark Sulavinas Simbia tape lions are hard to kill.There is only one lion that dies instantly.They used about every big gun you could name.When the 22 savage high power came out they shot a few tigers with it.There was a guy here in alaska that tried to scare a moose with a 25acp .He hit it in the head but it took a day to die.I shot a black bear with my 338 win mag through both shoulders and got the top of the heart and lungs.It still ran about 100 yards.It had about a foot of fat around it.Bears and cats can be tough cookies.I decided after that bear that Elmer Keith was right.I always knew he was.I now use at least a 250 gr bullet .338 or bigger for bears.In the thing stuff I like my 416 rem mag with 410 gr s the woodleigh bullets.You can never kill a cat or bear too dead.I like the extra insurance of an extra hole in the hide instead of getting my hide patched.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
There are stray cats everywhere, including Alaska, but I was referring to my youth where I received a 50 cent bounty (per cat) from farmers to kill stray cats on their farms. Thirty in one morning was the most I ever shot on one farm. That was when 22 LR cost 49 cents and shorts were 29 cents. I felt like a rich lad.

Huh. I would have thought that farmers want a few strays around for mouse control. My father in law lives in Kansas and he is on a farm. I asked him if he needed a few strays thinned out while I was zeroing my 270. He said "NO! They keep the mice population down."

Diff. strokes/diff. folks I guess. Same holds true for the ranchers place I stayed at last fall in WY. They denied me shooting any yotes. "Well, we think they're a natural part of the ecosystem."

Doc
I suppose you are right. Forty years ago people seemed to take a different view though.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatehouse:
I don't even think about shock when shootig a bear.

It's penetration and hitting vitals I'm worried about.

For defense, I'd want penetration, hitting vitals,breaking bone and preferably hitting the CNS.

I thought you preffered spears .
(Yes, I lurk there too).

Ann

I'm surprised that you didn't get a whole head of gray hairs after that incident. Usually, that "feeling" is the difference between life and death.

Bears are truly amazing animals.

A big grizzly is so strong and has so much burst speed that it can cover a 1/4 mile from a dead stop faster than a thoroughbred racehorse can if the horse has already accelerated to a full-gallop before the starting line.

Add to that equation all those hunting-knife sized claws he's got bearing down on you with, and you don't want to rely on hydrostatic shock.

I have a couple friends who were out hunting grizzles. One had a .44 mag revolver, and the other was using a 30-06. When they shot it with the '06, it pissed the bear off enough that it charged the two guys, who then scrambled up two different trees. The guys barely managed to get up the trees before the grizzly slammed into the tree where the guy with the '06 had climbed.

The guy with the .44 took a shot and the bear turned and ran over to his tree, stood up and opened it's mouth to roar/snarl/whatever at the guy.

He stuck the .44 mag INTO the bear's mouth, and unloaded it down the grizzly's throat. That finally took the fight out of the bear, but IMO that's WAY too close for comfort. They still stayed up in the trees for 20 minutes watching the bear and letting their hearts stop pounding.

Hearing him tell the story will raise the hairs on the back of your neck. The bear basically ignored the 30-06 except to get it's attention.

Lots of animals, even black bears if you stand your ground and stare 'em down, have the good sense to know what side of the food chain they're on, but a big grizzly isn't bashful about arguing that issue with you... and most grizzlies will take it personal if you try to stare 'em down.

There's a world of difference between a black bear/honey bear and a grizzly. Blacks will get scared. Grizzlies just get pissed.

Regardless of color though, I don't like being in bear country with anything that can't punch a .40 caliber hole or bigger. I'd say .375 minimum, with a .416 preferred... with shot placement critical...

and for insurance maybe a second person carrying a .444 or .450 marlin lever action for backup-up and fast follow-up shots. If that bear decides to mosey over your way and discuss that hunk of lead you've just put into his flank, you won't have to worry about range issues for long.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
It split the cat in half from end to end.It was a 200 gr bullet at around 3000 fps.

Did you have to shoot both halves?!?!

Doc, You have no idea how prolific house cats can be. Farmers, both then and now, well knew the value of cats for keeping the mice down and at every farm I had orders not to kill this cat or that cat because they were the kids pets or great mousers. Plus cats quickly figure out what is going on and make themselves scarce. The fact that I could still manage thirty in a day should give you an idea of the level of infestation some farms had.

I shot a coyote with the same 200 gr 338 bullet.The coyote fliped dead.I could not believe that the cat ran .It looked just like the ones we studied in college.It still ran and some how was still alive.I was tired of seeing it with a quail in its mouth every time I saw it.

Ben589 sounds like a BS story to me. THe 06 is more then capable of killing any grizz. Most likely muffed the first shot. Then didn't have the skill to follow it up with well placed 2nd and 3rd shots. or the whole thing is BS.

P dog shooter, it wasn't BS. The grizzlies are so thick, ferocious, and bullet proof up here that we're all dead.

Dunno P Dog ... it could well be he didn't get a good hit on the bear the first hit. He did drop the rifle before climbing the tree, so their only gun was the .44 the other guy took up with him.

I wasn't there, so I can't confirm or deny any of it ... but fear/nervousness may have played a large part in that first shot. No idea.

Talking about cats. My inlaws have a couple of farms every so often. Granma calls up tells my son bring the gun the cats are getting out of hand. He goes and wacks a few of them. Saves a lots of birds ect granma is happy for a while.

Speaking of crats, my in-laws, who farm north east Nebraska, also like to keep a couple 3 to stay ahead of the mice.

The youngest cat, though, took up using the garage staircase as its litterbox. They BEGGED me to get rid of the POS...

Later that week, about midnight, it found itself on the wrong end of a 32 gr. 22 Win mag hollow point (Federal load). Had used that bullet on rabbits all week and did it ever leave holes!

Shot the crat in the shoulder from about 10 yards. 22 size hole going in, 22 size hole going out.

That POS died almost instantly, though, so I imagine the exit would was just the jacket or a fragment, and that the inside was probably jello.

And no more turds were found in the staircase...got the right crat on the first try!

friar

Thanks for the info on Bears. It makes interesting reading then flipping to the posts on "hanguns for Grizzlies" and shotguns for same.

I wonder if people ever actually think things through

Ganyana
When I was 14 I shot a black bear with the only gun I had at the time, a single barrel 20 gauge with rifled slugs. My brother and cousin finished off the bear. Upon autopsy my slug was just under the hide and hadn't appaeared to do anything. Since then I've shot quite a few deer with 12 gauge slugs and haven't been impressed with the results. I think anyone using a shotgun on big bears is really asking for trouble.