A few days ago I was at my favorite local country gunshop and took the opportunity to compare a set of 10X40 Zeiss Classics (that Cabela's sells at a good price) side-by-side with a set of 10X40 Swarovski ELs.

It was a rather cloudy day, when the light isn't the best, and the perfect set of conditions to test binoculars under. Lots of 'em appear to be outstanding in the store or outside on a perfectly clear day, but outside when it's cloudy and you can see up-close and at a considerable distance is where real testing can begin.

Long & short of it: As nicely-made and as ergomonically-pleasing as those fine old Zeiss Classics are, the Swarovski ELs out-performed them in every way, shape, and form, and by a country mile. Optically, there simply was no comparison between the two, the differrence was that dramatic.

If you're considering a new set of binos and are thinking about these two options, if you can spend the extra money on the ELs, or better yet, buy a set of Leica Ultravids.

AD

Allen: As far as I know, Swaro does not make a 10X40EL. They DO make a 10X40 SL, a lower end (for them) pair of binocs.

They DO make a 10X42EL as I am sure you know.

Which did you compare with the Zeiss Classics?

Allen,

I don't doubt for a minute that the EL's provide somewhat of a better view than the CalssiC's, but one also has to factor in the $1,000.00 price difference...

If a guy can afford the Leica Ultravid's, Zeiss FL's, or Swarovski EL's, more power to them, but IMHO, the Zeiss 10x40 ClassiC's still offer the best "bang for the buck" when it comes to European glass, and the Pentax DCF SP's offer the best "bang for the buck" period.

I did make a mistake in my original post. The Swarovski binos I examined are EL 10X42 WBs, not 10X40s. But they are EL's

http://www.swarovskioptik.com

Buster, I based my comparison by performance alone, not price. It's hard to make endorsements that match every budget, so I'd rather compare by actual use..........

AD

Yeah, as good as the old Classic series is (and the 10x40s are still a great pair of binocs for the price!), optics and in particular coating technology has improved in leaps and bounds in the last years. Just a fact of life, and the ELs are very close to being as good as it currently gets these days. I still think the Classics are a great buy for the price, though.
- mike

Allen,
How do you rate the Leica Geovids?
I actually prefer a smaller bino in 8x30, and planed on replacing the 8x30 Swaros I left in Zim with some 8x30 EL's. However I looked at a pair of the Lieca's with the rangefinder built in. The rangefinder worked great, better even than their own rangefinder unit.
They are a little bigger than I like but they sure look good, and I have a coupld of hunts comming up where I would like to have a RF but hate to carry the additional piece of equipment, much less have to "dig" it out when needed. I would get the 8x as I can hold it steady with one hand when stalking, the other hand carrying the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
Yeah, as good as the old Classic series is (and the 10x40s are still a great pair of binocs for the price!), optics and in particular coating technology has improved in leaps and bounds in the last years. Just a fact of life, and the ELs are very close to being as good as it currently gets these days. I still think the Classics are a great buy for the price, though.
- mike

Mike,

It's ashame that Zeiss don't upgrade the Classics in the same way that Swarovski has upgraded the optics in the SLC's...The Classics were a great bino in their day and as already mentioned are still pretty good when compared to other stuff at that price point.

Regards,

Pete

NE 450 No.2, I think the old Geovid was way too big and bulky, but it did work well, and I own a couple of trophies to the quality of that instrument. The current Geovid is lightyears ahead of the old one as far as being compact goes. One of my long-time friends recently bought a set of the new Geovids, and he's thrilled with them. And they make sense, particularly if you're hunting open country and don't want to hassle and mess with a seperate rangefinder, which is my situation right now.

I love the small 8X30 & 8X32 binos, especially for Africa. I just traded an old beat-up Zeiss 6X riflescope in on a NIB set of old Zeiss green-rubber, individual eye-focus 8X30s that I found for an incredibly good price that I couldn't pass up, and I got them specifically for African use. Quite often, like everyone else, I buy based on price, and this was one of those times.

Even so, I consider the Leica 8X32 Ultravids to be the world's best binocular in this range, bar-none. Nothing else will touch it, plus it's really light and compact.

AD

Currently I am using my back up pair a 7x42 Swaro's thatm I have had for a while. They are even bigger than the new 8x42 Geovids.
I am kinda getting used to their larger size.
I think I may just have to give the 8x42 Geovids a try.

Some Zeiss optics are actually made by Leupold.

For me, optics are always Swaro or Leica. But I have poor vision and need all the help I can get.

Doc,

If I'm not mistaken, it was actually the other way around; some of the early Leupold Gold Ring binos were made by Leitz, who is Leica's predecessor...

If price is no object, the Swarovski EL is the one to buy.

Buster, I'm not sure.

When I worked at the custom ammo shop in Tucson, years ago, that is what one of our long time employees told us.

He said specifically that some of the Zeiss riflescopes and maybe one or 2 of the bino's were 100% manufactured by Leupold.

I've called Leupold several times over the years, having reticles changed out, etc. I've brought this topic up before and whomever I spoke with denied ever having any Leupold optics farmed out to anyone.

But, I don't work there, so who knows.

The 10x40 classics are now pretty old technology having been discontinued quite a while outside of Cabela's special run.

'Newer' updated Classics (and very recently discontinued) such as the 7x42BGAT*P* get very close to the ELs that I have tried.

Try as I might I cannot warm to the large ELs (just too bulky and no 7x)the UVs (uncomfortable thumb ridge) or the FLs (cheap feel)

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
It's a shame that Zeiss don't upgrade the Classics in the same way that Swarovski has upgraded the optics in the SLC's...

Pete, I think if you read carefully Swaro are upgrading Opticson only a couple of models and rather misleadingly making it seem as if all are. Most of the updating appears to be in appearance.....

I was surprised that Zeiss still lists many of the old Classics on their website, because I had also heard that this line had been discontinued.

My #1 set of binoculars is a set of Leica Ultravid 8X42s. I haven't seen anything that'll touch them yet optically. Swarovski is close, but not quite there.

One thing that bothers me about Swarovski is structural integrity. I just don't think they are as robust and well-built as Leica, or even Zeiss, particularly the Classic -- they just don't have the same look and feel of quality. Last year, in Mexico, one of the guys in camp had a set of 10X40 ELs, and the left eyepiece came off the first day of the hunt, and actually broke off inside. We simply couldn't get it back or jury-rig a solution. He tried to used them anyway, but it just didn't work.

AD

Allen: what's the name of the potical shop you deal with pls? I'm thinking of uprading and if I remember correctly, you mentioned they take trade-ins. jorge

quote:

Pete, I think if you read carefully Swaro are upgrading Opticson only a couple of models and rather misleadingly making it seem as if all are. Most of the updating appears to be in appearance.....

1894,

I might be wrong here, but as I understand it Swarovski have updated the optics/coatings on the 7x42 and 10x42 models, but not the 8x32...I am not sure about the restyled outer case ect, but I thought that was on all models in the SLC range??? A friend has returned his 7x42SLC twice in about 15 years due to falls out of highseats.

In both cases they appear to have been refurbished and while they were away, Swarovski UK borrowed him loaners so he could continue to stalk...In fact because of the way Swarovski UK have treated this guy over the years (he's very hard on optics!) I would find it very hard to switch to Zeiss or Leica, as I don't believe they would offer the same customer service.

Regards,

Pete

Gentlemen

When my binos been sent in for service Swarovski has always sent out a loaner with returning priority mail. My next bino is a Swarovski EL

My experience is that Leica service is quite poor. 6 weeks to do "a quick adjustment"

Leica rifle scopes were made by Leupold

Cheers
/JOHAN

Jorge, I prefer to deal with Jim Rockstad. He will take trades, but he only accepts European optics. Jim's an extremely honest and fair man, and you'll really like him. He's a real hunter as well.

Rockstad Enterprises
P.O. Box 1177
Templeton, CA 93465
(805) 434-3567
(FAX) 462-2913

AD

Thanks, Allen. I have a pair of Swaro SLCs 10X42s that I'm thinking of trading in for some Ultravids I think. jorge

I have had a Zeiss binocular of exactly the model that AD just got for thirty years; it has been used long and hard and is a fantastic glass. I had a Zeiss Classic bino before this for several years, bought at age 21 in '67 and it was not too shabby, either.

I have used all of the major Euro brands and some Asian stuff as well and I have a Leica 10x42 Trinovid as my backup to my Zeiss. this is a superb glass, but, a touch heavier than the Zeiss.

I do not like the Swarovskis, in fact, I have yet to use a Swaro optic that I did like and I have tried a whack of them. Each to his own, but, I pick Leica as the best by quite a margin and prefer Leupy scopes over Swaro, Zeiss or anything else. I might get an Ultravid next year after I try my partners Geovid on our Sheep hunt in Sept. Good optics rate right up there with your pack, boots and sleeping bag, IMHO.

I just replaced all my old binocs with Pentax high end DCF *** stuff.

It fit my limited budget and I liked them a LOT for the money and felt they "compared favorably" to the thousand dollar plus optics.

However... Having said that... Anyone that can't see the big advantage of Swarovski high end optics needs to have their eyes checked.

If I could afford Swarovski optics I wouldn't have even considered ANYTHING else and I rely HEAVILY on optics and compare them in actual field conditions quite often.

If you know someone with Swarovski EL glass invite them out to the actual place you hunt, in the light conditions you hunt in. Bring any and every pair of binocs you can get your hands on and if you have good eyes, I imagine you will come away a believer like I did, several times.

I also highly recommend a GOOD lasic surgeon. Until I had lasic surgery I had no idea what I was missing out there. Most of us are walking around half blind because we don't REALLY pay enough attention to our eyes.

$bob$

I don't know what your field experience is, but, mine involved months of daily use of my optics in western Canada in order to make my living, this from '65 to '93. I mean using the glass for periods of hours each and every day, to spot new fires among the dense, smokey haze thrown up by existing fires. I sometimes was at this work for nearly eighteen straight hours with nary a break.

I served as a "Lightkeeper" on the B.C. coast as well and used my binos every day for extended periods and both these positions REQUIRED periodic checks of one's vision. There is nothing wrong with my eyes, even at 59 I backpack, hunt and spot game without corrective measures.

Simply because you cannot afford the finest gear does not give you the right to make remarks about other's abilities, experiences or opinions derived therefrom. I do not like Swaro optics after USEING them in the B.C. wilderness as I have SEEN them fall apart too often and this does not happen with Zeiss or Leica. I know a number of people with Swaros who now wish they had Leicas which are currently the finest over-all binos available, especially for hunting big game.

Kute, durability in the field is a hard hurdle for a lot of guys to get over, and quite often durability and price are closely interrelated. Lots of binoculars and riflescopes look great in the store and out of the store, but subject them to hard use and the sheep get seperated from the goats in short order. I must agree with your assessment that Zeiss ('Classic' version) and Leica (older 'Leitz' version as well) are just about the toughest binoculars ever produced, besides being superior optically. I've seen problems with many other makes.

Ten years ago, I gave a set of Leica 8X32s to an African professional hunter at the end of a safari as a bonus gift, simply because he absolutely knocked himself out for me every day, from dawn to dusk, for nearly three weeks running. He's used those same Leica's every single day of the safari season, year-in and year-out, for all the years since, plus he uses them on other hunts here in the U.S. I looked at those old binoculars on a hunt we did together in Texas a couple of years ago, and they are still as good as new. I'm hunting with that same PH this season, and yes, he's using the same set. He's put about two lifetime's worth of use into those glasses, and they're never let him down yet.

Long, hard wilderness experience such as yours should be listened to, and respected.........

AD

Leica rifle scopes were made by an American company Leupold or Burris ????? I don't know.

Zeiss has several levals of lines, like everyone else.

Leica riflescopes were made for Leica to Leica's specs, using Leica's own lenses, by Leupold & Stevens in Beaverton, Oregon. They were largely hand-built and took up a lot of Leupold's time and resource to produce, so Leupold backed out of the deal and the line was discontinued.

I have a Leica 3.5-10x on my favorite 300 Win. Mag. and that scope has performed perfectly on a great many hunts over the last four seasons. I couldn't ask for a better scope, and I've never owned a better scope.

From what I hear, Leica is going to introduce a new line of scopes in the near future....

AD

allen, damn we are on the same page here. I have owned several of the Leica scopes and only have one left, which is going on my custom Super Grade when completed. No finer glass to be had at any price

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
A few days ago I was at my favorite local country gunshop and took the opportunity to compare a set of 10X40 Zeiss Classics (that Cabela's sells at a good price) side-by-side with a set of 10X40 Swarovski ELs.

If you're considering a new set of binos and are thinking about these two options, if you can spend the extra money on the ELs, or better yet, buy a set of Leica Ultravids.

AD

Something similar happened to me the other day!
I went to this car shop and tried two different cars: a Ford “Mondeo†and a BMW 740d.
My advice is: if you can afford it buy the BMW!

B.Martins

buster, so do the SP's outperform the SP's you bought??

BTW even if that scope is a leupold, it sure looks cool with the name Leica on it

CumminsCowboy,

I guess I don't really understand your question, but here goes...

I love premium glass as much as the next guy, but Swarovski and Leica are making it awful difficult when they continue to raise their prices like they have; Swarovski's took a jump just last month, and Leica's took a big jump as of July 1st. The SP's are right about 1/4 the cost, but IMHO, offer somewhere between 93%-97% of the optical quality of the big four (Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski, and Nikon LX's), so you do the math...

By the way, the 10x43 SP's I just bought were for my Father-in-law for Father's Day and he absolutely loves them! If I didn't already have Leicas and Nikon Venturer's that are paid for, it'd be real hard for me to justify spending what they want for them now. I Hope that makes sense.

As far as the EL's go, I've never had the opportunity to compare them (too rich for my blood), so I can't comment on them.

I did make a heck of a buy a couple days ago on a like new pair of Swarovski 8x30 SLC's that should be here Monday. These will be the first Swarovski's I've owned, so I'm pretty anxious to try them out.

Take care,
Buster

The 7x42 Ultravid is hand's down the finest binocular on the market today. Having one less glass element than the 8x42's makes a slight but noticeable difference. If I were going to buy a new bino today that's the one I'd own, period.

I contemplated going from my 8x32 BN's to the 8x32 Ultravid but felt the 3-5% gain in image quality (maybe) wasn't justified by the 50% jump in price. I'd also add, the BA's and BN's are a known quantity in terms of dependibility and ruggedness. The jury's still out on the Ultravid though if the past is any track record they'll probably be great.

I regretably think Swarovski's are the most overrated binocular on the market (speaking primarily of the SLC's). If you can pick up a used pair for a good price that's great, but I'd never spend the money for the new stuff with what Leica's got available. The lack of durability of the Swaro's is a constant noise from guides, etc., here in the states... where there's smoke there's fire.

quote:

The 7x42 Ultravid is hand's down the finest binocular on the market today.

Chuck

For most hunters, that is true and I actually wish that I could get a 6x30 Zeiss like the one I have and Allen just bought. This for hunting in dense bush after Whitetail, etc. The 7x glass is much easier to use, hold steady and so, forth, but, my choices in good glass were very limited in the Kootenays, so, I bought what was available.

IF, you can hold them steady, and I can, the Leica 10x42 have the finest resolution and gather as much light as anything I have ever used. I can hunt alpine animals with them without packing a spotter and I do not miss the extra weight thereof. Of course, I usually hunt solo and kill for meat only, so, am not concerned about trophy quality; thus, my equipment choices tend to be long on camping/survival gear and short on optics, I don't even own a camera.

I agree that the shrinking value of the dollar is really pushing the price of Leica, Swarovski, & Zeiss right through the roof and to the point where I'm reluctant to buy new. I did get a set of 8X42 Ultravids last year before the big price jump, and I'm sure glad I did.

One great and viable alternative is to buy mint condiditon used binoculars, and Jim Rockstad is the man to call in that department. You can totally trust him, and he offers really fair prices for used, top-quality European binoculars. If anything, he understates condition, and he's really a pleasure to work with. I've done business with him for many years.

Brad & Chuck, there's no question that the 7X42 Ultravid is the real sleeper, unsung performance leader, and likely the best choice of all for an all-around glass. I went 8X42 out of familiarilty than anything else.

AD

Allen, I totally understand your choice for that reason. The 8x42 is a wonderful glass and at that performance level it's a matter of "grading diamonds!" I just wish there were more 7x alternatives. I'm still a believer that a 7x35 is the most practical binocular configuration ever invented. If Leica made a 7x32 Ultravid I'd be an owner... I like the "mid-sized" bino's as you know!

Buster, sorry I flubbed up my question so bad. My real question is which is better optically the 10x43 DCF SP's or the zeiss classics that cabelas are selling??

I personally don't like the SLC line, too short of eyerelief for me. However the EL's in 8.5x42 are the finest binocular I have ever looked through

Cummins Cowboy,

I think the view through the SP's is probably every bit as good, but they haven't been around long enough in my opinion to really prove themselves as being "battle worthy". I posted a thread here a couple months ago asking for owners of SP's to report their opinions about their long-term durability, but I didn't get much of a response.

On the other hand, it's common knowledge the Zeiss ClassiC's have proven themselves for decades in the roughest conditions possible, plus they give a great view.

As you well know, optics, especially binos, are very personal, so you'll get a lot of varying opinions. My personal opinion is that Leica's are the "toughest" built binoculars on the planet, with the Zeiss ClassiC's probably a close second.

As I said before, you can never go wrong with top quality glass, but it's getting real difficult to justify their cost. I keep thinking that even if the SP's aren't quite as durable as say Leica, which is still questionable I guess, a guy could buy four pairs of the SP's for what he'd shell out for one pair of Ultravids or EL's. I guess I'd have to say, if you can afford the very best, buy the very best, but I don't think the SP's are any slouch...

I agree with Allen Day that used optics are the way to go if you're wanting to getting into top european stuff. Use a little common sense and keep a some money on hand and you'd be amazed at the deals you can find.....

Take care,
Buster

I guess I spouted off about something I didn't know about.

The "fact" that Swarovski binocs aren't very "rugged" is something that I didn't know about. The two guys that I know that own them treat them like they're "made of glass" because they are very expensive and they'd likely not be able to afford to replace them.

I've hunted an average of 80 days per year with a pair of 8x21 Brunton lightweight binocs around my neck and have never had ANY trouble with them and they've been through HELL and back and have hunted with me for over 10 years.

Those are the only binocs that I've ever had that have had enough use to determine their ruggedness. The rest of my binocs get handled with "kid gloves".

I sure do like Swarovski's glass but what I've seen here would make me very cautious about buying them.

$bob$

What is the opinion of the 7x35 Leitz?

I have a pair that is marked 7x35 BA....Trinovid
Ernst Leitz Wetzler GMBH

They are very clear and the perfect size (to me). They are black and rubber armored.

When I got these (about 18 years ago) they seemed to be as bright and clear as 10x50 Swaros that my boss had. They are still just as bright and clear today.

I think they were $350.00 from Cabellas.

Bob