Hi you all

I live in a place (Argentina) where no "out of the shelf" comparison can be done by myself, so please I will really appreciate your help to clarify out my doubts on this ....


I am looking for a scope to be used mainly in extremely low light hunting conditions (at most moon light, which is allowed where I live) and I am decided to try out an illuminated reticle so as to have an "all terrain" scope...

Specifications, should have (at least) 6x and half of this power as a bottom magnification, lens quality as better as posible (limited by my budget, some 600 or a little more) and should withstand complainless the recoil of a 375 H&H... also, it appears to me that the iluminated dot is much more usefull than the iluminated cross, so the first one would be my election

So far (unless you make me know of better choices) I have narrowed my choices between the Burris signature 1,5-6x40

http://www.swfa.com/pc-4556-206-burris-15-6x40-signatur...ect-rifle-scope.aspx

and the Bushnell 2,5-10x50 Elite 4200

http://www.swfa.com/pc-7279-185-bushnell-25-10x50-elite...0mm-rifle-scope.aspx

But.....

Am I talking of two scopes in the same league of mechanical & lenses quality ? Which is better (even if anyone is slightly better than the other)?

Also I am concerned about three more things

a) the burris's electro (and/or bushnell's iluminated) dot width ... can anyone tell me their measures (in moa) ? (since I am afraid it will hide my target - heart or brain - at certain distances not allowing me to see exactly where am I shooting ...

b) the intensifier, how many positions do both of them have ? is the lowest one in both of them sufficient enough no to make me loose night vision capability ?

c) is the battery life pretty much the same in both models (i the same use conditions)?

Thank you all in advance !

First, An illuminated scope with the illumination set at all but the lowest setting will make sighting in very low light very difficult unless you get into one of the really high end (high $$$) Zeiss units.

Consider Zeiss/Swarovski/Schmidt & Bender 1.5-6x42 with duplex reticle and no illumination. A Nikon model with the same specs is also available at considerably less cost. With a .375 you want the full 4 inch eye releif. These scope will do a good job in very low light. I could shoot deer in the open in moonlight with any of them.

The use of a 375 at night implies messing with critters that can mess with you. Were this me, I think I'd worry a whole lot less about illumination of the reticle and a whole lot more about having a decent light to put on the target. With a 2D/3D Maglight at 100 yards you can do a very good job and illumination on the reticle is not a problem. There are much better lights if you need them.

either would be great. i prefer sightrons myself but in reality i think all you have to do is flip a coin ~

The standard answer to the question of "best scope for low light shooting" is to look at one of the European high end offerings with a 56 mm objective lens - i.e. a Zeiss V/VM 3-12x56, Swaro PV 2.5-10x56 or a S&B 2.5-10x56.

The only potential problem is that you want to mount the scope on a .375 H&H, and that is quite a big scope for that much recoil. Still, if you want the ultimate in low light performance, that is where you'll get it.

The trick then, is to choose a reticle which will not disappear in low light. That normally means a German #4 or a #1 - if you can stand the impracticality of precise sighting with the #1.

Adding an illuminated reticle is not going to turn any scope into a night vision device. It *may* give you 10-15 minutes extra time. But as miles58 pointed out, ONLY if you make sure you get a model where the illumination can be turned down so much it does not overpower the target. Illuminated reticles will add a significant amount of cash to your bill, and trying to save (e.g. by buying a US or Asian scope) is likely to end in frustration. Then you might be better off just getting a regular #4 or #1 reticle.

- mike

My only experience with a Bushnell scope on a heavy recoiling handgun was a bad one, so I'll leave it to someone else to recommend Bushnell if they want to.

As far as night shooting goes, you can see a LOT with a regular Leupold scope if you have just a little moonlight and it's usable even without an illuminated reticle.

The only illuminated reticle scopes I have are Nightforce which I can highly recommend. They are made to withstand the recoil of a 50 BMG so a 375 H&H Mag. is no problem. I use the 2.5-10X version on a 458 Lott and have been VERY happy with it. The downside to the Nightforce scopes is that some think they're too heavy; they are heavy...built like a tank.

quote:

Originally posted by Afrikaander:
I am looking for a scope to be used mainly in extremely low light hunting conditions (at most moon light, which is allowed where I live) and I am decided to try out an illuminated reticle so as to have an "all terrain" scope...

Hey Afrikaander, It looks like you are getting some excellent advice so far. Especially the part about the very Large Objectives - the Larger the better for low/dark conditions.

quote:

Specifications, should have (at least) 6x and half of this power as a bottom magnification, lens quality as better as posible (limited by my budget, some 600 or a little more) and should withstand complainless the recoil of a 375 H&H...

The $600 budget will eliminate a good many of the recommendations coming to you. Some which have been recommended are 2-4 times that much. No doubt they are fine scopes though.

Recoil can tear-up even the best scopes. It would be a rare person to have multiple Brand Scope experience with enough different scopes over a long enough time period to be able to give a definitive answer. So, I asked a bunch of folks that "Sell" them what comes back to them with problems and what doesn't. More later.

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...also, it appears to me that the iluminated dot is much more usefull than the iluminated cross, so the first one would be my election

My thinking is the exact opposite. With a "Dot", it would be possible to hold the scope so it is rotated a bit right or left(Canted) and not be aware of it. At the distance shots will be able to be taken in near darkness, it might not matter at all on a Shoulder Shot, but it might on a Head Shot.

An Illuminated Cross will give an indication of the scope being Canted. I've not used a single Red Dot though, so that is speculation on my part.

quote:

So far (unless you make me know of better choices) I have narrowed my choices between the Burris signature 1,5-6x40 and the Bushnell 2,5-10x50 Elite 4200 But.....

Am I talking of two scopes in the same league of mechanical & lenses quality ? Which is better (even if anyone is slightly better than the other)?

I'm in the process of Testing some Illuminated Scopes with a couple of buddies. Only problem is none of us have either of those, and it would only be a "1 piece sample" anyhow.

For what it is worth, I spoke with 26 Gun Shops that sell scopes and they all said basically the same things. They said they have a good number of Leupold and Burris Scopes(illumination was not discussed) returned to them because of problems, but rarely a Bushnell. I've NEVER had a Leupold with a problem Out-of-the-Box, but the Gun Shops I spoke with sell hundreds of each every year. I've not had any of my buddies with Burris Scopes experience an Out-of-Box failure either. Just repeating what the Gun Shops told me.

I also doubt many(if any) Bushnells were sold where I am for a 375H&H. One guy mentioned he bought a 444Mar with a BSA on it which he planned to replace, but a buddy of his had a BSA on a 50BMG Barrett with no problems. So he kept the BSA and was having no problems either. The only reason I mention this is that I would not have selected a BSA for either of those, and again, they are only representing a 2-piece Sample. Neither was Illuminated.

quote:

a) the burris's electro (and/or bushnell's iluminated) dot width ... can anyone tell me their measures (in moa) ? (since I am afraid it will hide my target - heart or brain - at certain distances not allowing me to see exactly where am I shooting ...

I have a 2007 Burris Catalog and just looked through it at their Electro Dot Scope Specifications - couldn't find the Dot Size. I do not have one of these being Tested.

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b) the intensifier, how many positions do both of them have ? is the lowest one in both of them sufficient enough no to make me loose night vision capability ?

Excellent question. The last time I had a Burris Electro Dot in my hands it had only - Off, High, Medium (no Low) - for controlling the Illumination. It is listed just like that in their 2007 catalog.

And the last Illuminated Bushnell I held(not a 4200) had an interesting combination. Only the "thin" Cross portion Illuminated. The Cross was of very thin dimensions but the length and height was maybe 66% of the visible area. It had Heavy Pickets, separated from the Thin portion, out at the edges. And it had both Red and Green Illumination with - Off, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - Illumination Settings for each color. I do not have one of these being Tested so I don't know if the Lowest setting is too bright or not.

quote:

c) is the battery life pretty much the same in both models (i the same use conditions)?

Burris quotes 50-60hrs on Medium and 40-50hrs on High in their catalog. I don't know about the Bushnell.
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I have three "inexpensive" Illuminated Scopes that I'm Testing. Mine all use a "2032" Flat Watch Style Battery which can be purchased anywhere here in the USA for about $2. I've not run a Battery Life Test on them. One is too bright on the Lowest Setting(the cheapest scope of the bunch) and the other two are as close to perfect as I can imagine. All three have - Off and 11 intensities.

The Leupolds being Tested have a different battery which is a good bit more expensive and can be a trick to find, but I don't remember the Part#. One of the guys Testing them has "accidentally" left his ON overnight two-times and so far it is still working fine. I seem to remember them having - Off and 10 intensity settings - but that coulld be wrong.

Another guy has a Simmons and a Swarvoski. The Simmons Illuminates the entire Reticle including the Heavy Picket portion and tends to cause night blindness. The Swarvoski has a Cross and is working fine. I don't remember the intensity settings on either of them, nor the Battery being used.
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How far do you anticipate the longest shot in the moonlight? And what is the smallest size animal you are Hunting at that time?

Personally, I wouldn't get either of the two you've suggested. The problem is your location kind of negates the value of a great warranty because of shipping costs but even considering that I'd look to spend a bit more and my first choice for your requirements would be a Leupold 3.5-10x50 Ill with a 4A reticle, or a Boone and Crocket if you think you're going to be doing some long range day work. I'm not sure of the absolute best pricing but currently they are $729 at Bear Basin. I'm not big on big objecives on .375s but the 1.5-5 Ill Leupie doesn't have enough on the high end for your requirements and I personally think the 20mm objective takes it out for night work.

My close second and third choices would be a Nikon Monarch 3.5-10x50 with Ill Nikoplex at about $540 at Bear Basin. (again check around for best prices). My third choice would be a Trijicon 3-9x40 for $594 at Bear Basin.

You'll get slightly better glass with the Nikon and I'd certainly consider it, but I think the Leupold is the way to go, even if it is a bit more expensive. Take me Dove hunting and I'll bring you one.

Thank you all very much for your advices, specially to you Hot Core

99% of my shots will be made to boars, longest shot at night(in clean terrain and with minimun needed moonlight) should be at some 150 yards ... actually most of my shots are done somewhere in between 75 and 100 yards - I usually hide myself at those distances, since I try not to contaminate the ambush zone with my smell (thou I almost always use scent killers and sometimes scent lures)

So far I am using a S&B 6x42 #1, with pretty good success ... but sometimes I found myself aiming such a dark target that I could not distinguish properly the reticle, nor the exact place of the neck or the brain where to shoot at - which made me wait for a better light condition (sometimes lessen due to a cloud, or a shadow well used by sus scrofa or simply because of the dense bush)...

And as it usually happens , that minutes I had to keep myself "stand by" waiting for proper shooting conditions ended with that "outstanding" pig gone away safely (good trophies know when odds are against them - and when so, they disappear more quickly than quick !), and these experiences made me think that an iluminated reticle might be my solution ... a solution whose differences would be appreciated at a cost of not more than $600 , for more than that my actual equipment is still adecuate to handle most situations that I might face , aswell as leaving myself with more money to spend hunting !

Hey Afrikaander, Everybody has given you just excellent information, I just happened to have a Burris Catalog.
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Here is a portion of a PM I'd sent another fellow concerning Illuminated Scopes: Back when Leupold first offered their Illuminated Model, I looked at them very closely. I noticed they had reduced the Warranty to 2-years. Obviously some kind of problem on them back then, so I waited.

Eventually they returned the Warranty to the normal Limited Lifetime that is on all Gold Ring Leupolds. So I called them to see about getting 8-10 of my Leuplods "upgraded" with the Illumination Feature. I'd done that before to get the HEAVY Duplex Reticles and all went well. Plus I knew it only required the Eyepiece to be replaced and figured it would be $75-$100 per scope back then.

They told me they had "no intention" of offering it as an Upgrade and if I wanted one then I should sell mine and buy new ones.

So, I simply quit buying Leupolds. Didn't really need anything except the Illumination Feature, so it didn't matter.
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Hogs at 150yds MAX in moonlight is definitely a challenge. And trying to remain in your $600 budget reduces the options.

quote:

Just looked back and noticed miles58 posted:
...I think I'd worry a whole lot less about illumination of the reticle and a whole lot more about having a decent light to put on the target. With a 2D/3D Maglight at 100 yards you can do a very good job and illumination on the reticle is not a problem. There are much better lights if you need them.

If Spotlighting is "Legal" for your Hog Hunting, that might just be the way to go. There are some LED style lights available today that are simply amazing for brightness and battery life. I have a couple of cheap LED lights and they are so far ahead of my old lights that I intend to put LED upgrades in my old Mag-Lites.

One of the Gun Shops I visit has an extensive line of very expensive lights that they normally sell to policemen. I don't remember the name of them, but they are amazing. One of the employes noticed me looking at them(while shaking my head at the prices ) and asked me to follow him. We walked outside at about 10AM and there were scattered clouds. He put the light on a watertower off about 200yds and I could see when the light would hit it - amazing. I don't remember the specifications on them about the number of Lumens or Watts, but they were between $100-$200. Very rugged which he showed by dropping it onto concrete and it didn't matter.

I do not know how the Hogs would react to a Spotlight or LED flashlight. Some Game tends to freeze in place and some lingers just a bit and then takes off. I've not Hunted Hogs by moonlight or spotlight, so I have no experience there.

If they linger just a bit, the light pared with a Large Objective Scope which has a HEAVY Reticle of your choice might just fit into the budget. Of course if the Hogs don't remain long enough to get an accurate shot off, then this speculation is full-of-beans.
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Since the game is Hogs, you really don't have to run the 375H&H at Full Throttle - if you Reload. If you could use Starting Loads, or the Hodgdon 60% of a MAX H4895 and still get good accuracy, that would help some of the less expensive scopes.

I will be Testing the inexpensive scopes I have in gradual increases of recoil. The one currently on the 308Win will go to a 7mmRemMag and then onto a lightweight 350RemMag. Hopefully all of them will handle it, but I'm trying to make them fail with Recoil. No need to do that if you don't have good access to the manufacturers.

That brings up "how" you would contact the manufacturer if you do have some kind of manufacturing defect that Recoil finds in your scope. It might be well worth your effort to see how easy it is for you to get hold of a Manufacturer's Representive in Argentina. And I would tend to go with a scope brand that allows me to talk to a Rep.

The reason is because I've contacted one of the manufacturers "twice" about the scopes I'm testing. The first one was setting on a table with Lens Covers in place. I don't normally use them, but they came with the scope and I had them on it. After about 3-days, one of the Rubber Bands which held them in place broke. Didn't really concern me, but then it dawned on me it would be a good way to see how well they respond to a Customer Problem. Called them and they sent a set of new Lens Covers in about a week.

A different scope was doing fine and had a good number of shots through it when I noticed what appeared to be a "small" piece of gasket material sticking to the inide of the Eye Piece. It would not have been large enough to ruin a Hunt, but it wasn't supposed to be there. One call and they told me to Ship it to them and it would be replaced. Nine days later the new one arrived. The Rep also told me if I should have "ANY" manufacturing Defects in the replacement, they would pay to have it returned to them and send me a new one. That is the kind of Customer Service I like.

I've had a couple of Leupolds go just a bit erratic after 5-8 years of heavy recoil and they fixed them at No Charge. Not sure that would be something I would ask of the less expensive brands though.

A couple of the other folks I've talked to use Red Dot non-magnifying Sights. They like them real well, but take relatively close shots. I don't remember if they were Hunting Varmints in the moonlight or not though.
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I try to remember Scopes are ALWAYS a compromise. If I want a Large Objective, then the scope will be heavier than a smaller one. If I want High Power, then it needs some way to adjust the Parallax. If I Hunt in low light, I need either a HEAVY Reticle or an Illuminated Reticle which will not cause night blindness. If I want a Rugged Scope, that "used to be" at odds with the cost. But the less expensive scopes seem to be getting better every year.

Best of luck to you.

I have owned several Bushnell scopes. I won't buy another. They do not back their warranty. Just my experience.

quote:

I won't buy another. They do not back their warranty.

My experience exactly.

Buy cheap buy twice, get a zeiss 3-13 x56 with a vari dot about $1650.00, you wont regret it
Daniel