After loosing three deer trying to shoot through brush (20 odd years ago with a 308 Win. and 165 and 180 gr. bullets I decided that was a bad habit. And this summer it was dramatically illustrated to me during a 600 yard F class match. My shooting buddy drew the first relay on target 6 and I drew the third relay on the same target so I went to the pits to mark the shots for the first two relays. His first sighter shot with a 308 using 175 Sierra MK's hit low in the 10 ring. His second sighter shot hit very near dead center of the X ring. I marked the shot with the spoter disc that is held in place by a hard wood dowel about the size of a pencil. Steve fired his first shot for record. I heard the bullet crack overhead and saw the bullet impact in target 8's berm ( target 6 was the last target being used that day). I wondered what in the world he had done. I looked up and knew instantly what had happened. The spotter disc was laying on the ground and the there was spinter rips all over the target. Just by hitting the spotter dowel it had thrown the bullet off nearly 20 feet. The impact berms are about 20 yards behind the target frames. No wonder trying to shoot through brush is so tough. Like John Wooters wrote years ago. There is no such thing as a good brush cartride. You have a be a good brush hunter and know when to hold em and know when to fold em. Has anyone else had this experience. By the way he won the match with a 200-19X. After that they started using the 300 yard NRA highpower target for 600 yard F class matches at the local club.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat

I hunt a lot of brush I try and pick holes. Just this year I shot a whitetail that the entrance hole has 2 in. in dia. Must of hit a limb just before her. I have done a lot of combat training on jungle lanes. I saw a lot of keyholed bullet holes the targets even when the brush was close. It did not matter what cailber was being used if you hit brush you destablize the bullet then they can go anywhere.

All true. I've had three shots go astray because of unseen twigs, two that resulted in clean misses on trophy bucks. Poor light, iron sights, oh well.... now I prefer low power scopes if only to reveal these little obstacles. Thread bullets thru holes a lot, it is the nature of hunting Southern bottom country. Will NOT attempt a shot thru the thinnest of brush for any reason.

I was video tape'n a whitetail doe a buddy of mine was about to shoot with his .338 WM. The doe was around 90-100yards away. At the shot the doe looked around and then trotted away. My buddy, shocked, was wondering how he had missed the shot.
Later while we were watching the tape. we noticed there was one lone tree branch hanging down in front of the doe. At the shot the branch falls to the ground near the does feet. That was all I needed to see to form my opinion about brush busting bullets.

Daryl

Outdoor Life did an article on the subject in the mid 1960's. As I recall, they fired numerous shots through brush at targets then tried to come up with a theory of what bullets hit the targets, which ones keyholed on target etc. Neither the super slow (shotgun slug) nor super fast bullets topped out. Their conclusion was that a mv of 2500 +/- 50 fps gave the best chance. The closer the target to the deflecting branch the better (obviously).

Several tests were conducted much more recently and the results posted in a recent shooting times showed that velocity and bullet weight did not make any real difference.

My testing shows that more powerful. cartridges deflect less but they all tumble. Forster slugs broke up into pieces and very high velocity rounds blew up.

Of course it's best not to hit anything but the target.

No arguement, there is no such thing as a brush buster bullet/load. But, having had to deal with these things, many times, I've noticed a few things.
First, shoot through a hole, if you must shoot. Be prepared. Sometimes you miss the hole, or you will hit something you didn't see.
Second, expect the bullet to deflect off course. Even if it doesn't, it may loose it's core, expand prematurely, and loose some, even much, of it's ability to penetrate.
I've found the premiums help with this. They retain most of their weight, and do better than conventional designs under these conditions. In fact, law enforcement tests of the Federal Throphy Bonded .308 Win. ammo vs. the standard Federal 175 gr. Match revealed the TB load does not change course when shot through angled window glass like the Federal 175 gr. Match ammo always did. I really don't know if this would be the case in a typical hunting situation.
I find that a 6X scope helps alot with finding holes to shoot through. E

Had this same discussion Saturday night, looking over the nice whitetail my brother in law shot.

"Boy, those Ballistic Tips you loaded up for me sure open up! The entrance wound must be an inch across!"

"uh, what?", says I. After lots of recreating the scenario, it appears the center chest shot from 40 yards thru the innards of a small pine tree sent our bullet FEET off the mark, striking the buck under the chin.

I have an old video from Richard Davis (of Second Chance fame) showing various rounds being shot thru an armload of trigs and brush at an IPSC target a couple yards beyond. Even .50 BMG tumbled badly when hitting twigs! Eye-opening!

Redial

[ 12-03-2002, 01:56: Message edited by: redial ]

A "brush bustin" cartridge is a myth. There is no such thing. It's a shame the general public isn't better educated by the professional writers. Some hunters actually purchase cartridges like the ole 45-70 and 444 for their "brush bustin" capabilities.

I happened upon an old (70s circa) shooters digest in the library a couple days ago and saw an article in it about this very thing.

What they did was put a 4X4 post in the ground and placed a bunch of dowells in it so they stuck out sideways, they then shot at a target about 10 feet behind the dowels. The bullets struck the dowells many times but the groups in the target were still very accurate. They concluded that bullets will keep on in their intended direction through small branches. Calibers tested were 30-30, 30-06 and 300 WM.

One thing that occured to me about this test is that the dowells used would not have duplicated green and flexible limbs but dry and rigid ones instead.

I have shot through small brush in close proximity to game animals many times. I have also missed several animals when a limb was hit several feet in front of them. I think the bullets always deflect(more frangible bullets explode), but if the brush is close to the animal, a deflection doesn't affect premium bullets enough to miss the vitals.

Cartridges like the 45-70, 30-30, 35 Rem., and 444 are good brush cartridges because their heavy bullets and moderate velocities generally provide deep penetration on game as hard angle shots are common in thick brush not because they are unaffected by hitting branches and such.

[ 12-06-2002, 09:33: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

I agree with Stubblejumper - Recent tests carried out by our Sporting Shooters association over here(Australia)Confirm that velocity,size or weight make little difference,if you hit something your bullet is going to be deflecter regardless of caliber,weight shape ect.

Tumbo

Best use a bullet that, if it does hit after being deflected will still have enough to do the job. Say a 45-70?
Thats the failing of deflected light bullets, nothing left, if they do hit, they wound.
my opinion of course

Actually the larger slower slugs do have more of a tendency to tumble after striking a foreign object so they won't necessarily have any more killing potential than a faster moving smaller bullet.

[ 12-07-2002, 04:27: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

After testing many bullets in various media I found the greatest variation in bullet performance linked directly to velocity. The more you have the more likely you will get overexpansion or premature expansion no matter what the bullet hits. I have found the least likely to deflect bullets to be blunt hard cast or blunt FMJ rounds at moderate velocities that weigh 350 grains and up.

There is absolutely no such thing as a brush busting bullet, cartridge, or rifle! They will all be deflected by hitting brush! I have seen many 580 gr 500NE, 500 gr 470NE, 480 gr 450NE bullets deflected into the gut of lion, and Cape buffalo when the shooter shot through brush trying to hit the shoulder. Likewise I have to laugh when I see what most call brush busting rifles! Inveribly they will be ironsighted leveractions of 30-30, 444 Marlin, or 45-70. The real bursh rifle should ALWAYS be scoped, so you can pick a HOLE through the bush to the target with out hitting unseen twigs, then it doesn't matter what cartridge the rifle is chambered for, as long as it is suited to the animal you are hunting! Iron sights in heavy timber are responsible for more wounded, and lost game than any other thing, other than trying to shoot through brush. Many hunting accidents could be avoided by useing a scope as well, so one can SEE what he thinks he sees!

A friend of mine was sitting in my blind, on a whitetail lease, as I already had my deer, he was sitting with me. A beautiful ten point buck appeared at about 50 feet standing broadside, looking the other way, as if he had heard something in the creek bottom. My friend leveled his Mod 70 Winchester, 7mm rem Mag with a 3-9X40 scope set on 3 Power, with the crosshairs on the deer's heart lung area. When he fired, the deer simply turned his head around, and looked at us, then bounded into the brush, out of sight. My friend couldn't figure why the 175 gr Nosler hadn't flattened the deer on the spot! We went to where the deer was standing, and no hair, blood, only tracks indicateing where he had swapped ends, and jumped into the brush. As we walked back to the blind, that was made of ceder fence posts, covered by brush on the outside, there was a 7mm size hole in a twig a little larger than a ciggerette, cut almost in two, with the top part hanging at half mast! We collected our gear, and went back to where the deer had been standing, to start tracking him, in case he was hit! About ten yds behind where the deer had been standing, there was a spot about the size of a silver dollar, where the bark of an old oak tree was missing. This spot was at least ten feet up in the tree, and 5 or 6 ft out of line with the shot. On closer a look there was a KEYHOLED bullet hole in this spot on the tree, and what was left of the Partrition was clearly visible only a quarter inch deep! It seems the twig was so close to the barrel that it wasn't seen by the shooter, and was hit only 2 ft in front of the muzzle, deflecting the bullet 5 ft high, and 6 feet out of line. That deer was killed the next day by another hunter in our group, a half mile away from our stand, while capeing this buck out for the taxidermist, a fragment of the Partrition was found just behind the left ear at the base of the left antler!

The next week we set a target ten feet behind a bush at about 50 yds, and shot at it with six different chamberings from 22-250, to a 45-70 Ruger No1, and only two rounds got to the target with anything bigger than small fragments, and both of them were Keyholed. The two that got through were one from the 22-250, and one from a 270, and both were near the edge od a two foot square target. If the bulls eye had been the center of a whitetail's chest, both of those would have missed the kill zone, and either missed, or wounded the deer!

MacD37,

There is no such thing as a bush busting bullet or ROCK busting bullets!
Reading your post reminded me of a sheep hunter I was guiding. We got above some rams and had them cold. Hunter crawls into shooting position beside me, I have my bino's up to my face, I point out the largest ram, Boom! Nothing happened. Sheep looking all over. I put my bino' s down and see a SPLASH from a 180gr. bullet(300WM) on a flat rock about 2feet infront of us. His scope was the ONLY thing that cleared the rock. Anyways, I told him he shot the F'n rock and that it would be a good idea to move over and shoot the big ram before they F'off.
We got te big ram and had a good chucle about the rock. I was also glad I had that I had my bino's covering my yes.

Daryl

Daryl

Good points. I use a .45-70 lever gun when hunting timber because it's short and light and tosses a big flat nosed bullet pretty hard. I can hit real well with this thing. It's not magic and I certainly don't expect it to shoot through brush! Other times I've used a short barreled T-C White Mountain Carbine in .50 caliber with 90 grains of pyrodex and a 385 grain soft lead hollowpoint Hornady. It's very effective on deer at close ranges, but again I wouldn't expect it to shoot straight through brush. Both of these guns are my "brush guns" because they're short, handy, lightweight and deliver a heavy bullet accurately at short ranges. Regards, Guy

[ 12-07-2002, 22:09: Message edited by: m700 ]

While there is no such thing as a brush cartidge I think a case can be made for a brush rifle. Short and handy and powerful enough to stop your deer before it runs in front of somebody else. Also I want a good sized entrance as well as exit hole.