I vote for fairy tale.
I think what you have here is some "outcome driven research" (you know, kinda like the polls the dems and peta are always quoting) where you give the pollster or researcher the answers you want and he structures the tests or questions accordingly.
When did guides, highly experienced or otherwise, become the know-all, be-all, do-all???? Most of them are out of work cow pokes or sheep herders. Often they don't even live in the state in which they're guiding.

There is a difference between good hunter & good shooter. I'm not sure it's really a matter of ethics but common sence. There are thousands of "hunters" out there that never shoot their rifles except to verify sights, maybe. The there are the guys that shoot 1000 rounds a year but can't stay or walk quiet in the woods, don't watch the wind, etc.

This post brings to mind one of my pet peeves.
Why is the superbly skilled shooter, who has the ability to make one shot kills on game out to 500 or 600 yds, sneered at or considered a slob? While the fellow with his lever carbine in the woods can snap off a shot at the briefest glimpse of game and most hunters never blink an eye?
I my opinion, the hunter with enough dedication to acquire the skills needed to make long range shots is deserving of the greatest respect. Nobody learns to shoot that well without an extreme amount of work.
Although I take a lot of pride in my shooting ability, I am envious of any shooter who can confidently take game at 500 yds and beyond
For some of us the shooting is more important than the hunting. For me, hunting is the harvesting of meat, which justifies my shooting habits. I would rather go to the hills with a doe or cow tag any day than with a tag which requires the prescence of antlers. The female critters are a lot more plentiful, and I usually can get the hunting over with and start the shooting sooner. And if I don't screw up, the shooting lasts exactly one shot, then the work begins.
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To Jaycocreek,
I also am from Idaho, though unfortunately, from much nearer Boise than you. I have seen every type of slob hunter in our forests and most of them got out of rigs with Idaho plates. As a matter of fact the very worst examples of slobbery I ever witnessed were committted time after time by various Boise pheasant hunters trespassing on our dairy farm. Thank God the Id Dept. of F & G finally started educating hunters about the evils of trespassing. In the early 70's, an enraged pheasant hunter was refusing to leave our property and we summoned the local game warden. The warden actually told the hunter "There should be a law againt locking hunters off of private property, but there wasn't so unfortunately he would have to leave."
One so called hunter was so low as to actually punch my Mother in the mouth after arguing with her about his right to hunt on our property. While I am not proud of the language Mom chose to use in her argument, I am grateful said "hunter" exited the scene before my brother arrived. The situation would surely have escalated severely.

Thanks for the multiple choice. I pick #1. As I said, outcome driven research. Obviously you have some sort of axe to grind or agenda to forward, thus the very extreme "scenerios".
The day after tomorrow, our rifle deer season opens and I will be hunting with a rifle that I haven't shot all summer and only shot 6 rounds thru in the last week. Even tho I've been shooting varmint rifles all summer, and working up loads on several other rifles which, of course, entailed quite a bit of shooting, according to your "scenerios", I am doomed to failure because I haven't been shooting that particular rifle with that particular load. Give me a break, okay. I will be very surprised if monday ends without me having a nice freezer buck on the pole.
By the way, I'll be using a 4 wheeler. Normally I just ride the two tracks and run 'em down but my wife started bitching about the tread marks on the backstraps.

Idaho Shooter, I'm sorry to hear about some of the slob hunters invading your property, they ruin it for everyone else. It takes a lot longer to rebuild trust than it does to build it in the first place. It's a pity the man who assaulted your mother didn't spend time in jail.
I appreciate your opinion on distance not being what matters -a clean kill is. I'm not necessarily advocating long range shooting when it's not needed but a clean kill is a clean kill. Personally I would much rather close to within very short range and make an easy shot. If I can get closer I'll get closer, but I practice a lot (mainly because I love to shoot) and try and be ready for whatever shot might be presented. I also believe that you should get as steady as possible, I haven't made an offhand shot at game in a number of years.
Some guys just have a blind spot about longer range shooting but maybe slob hunters winging away at long range with no idea of what their doing has ruined their way of thinking in the same way you don't appreciate Pheasant hunters.........DJ

I think we all know for certain that no matter how much you practice, as the range increases, so do the chances of a bad hit. The odds just increase at a greater rate for some than others!



As Clint said, "A man's gotta know his limitations". Unfortunately, many of us refuse to acknowledge our limitations.



The ethical hunter knows his limitations and stays within them.



Tim

Idahoshooter-My best friend growing up was a farmer from Parma Idaho where his father himself and brother worked.They also had there problems with the hunters.As kids the worst plates in the hills were 2-C and thats where his was but he wasn't one of them.His brother is still there and a great guy and hunter/Sportsman.Great pheasant hunting though and love the farmers and ranchers.

Now,atleast here the out of State plates are matching the Idaho plates.Went to Priest lake one time and my wife was counting plates.3-1 Washington over Idaho on the road?

The subject-There is alot of truth to out of State people owning Idaho or anyother States hunting rights(Outfitters) and hire local people to maintain and keep them informed on game movement and such.Riggins Idaho is a prime example where alot of these so-called local ranch hands come and drink a beer or two and tell all about there employers.Sickening at best but they actually think in there out of state minds--They know it all..

Myself-I would listen to the silent majority of workers and hunters who just do it all the time and I wouldn't put everyone in the same category.Many an experienced hunter around here who does not fall into your categories or the Guides opinion.A friend of our family just stopped by and got his Elk at 81 years old with many many before and I'd take his advice over any Guide on Elk Hunting.He's just been doing it for 65+ years with a good success ratio and seen alot in his day..

Good luck......Jayco.

All that your "true story" proves is that a lot of things can and do happen in the fields because of differences in a persons disposition. Not everyone who owns an ATV is unethical and not everyone who gets a good rest and takes aim always hits the mark. The way I see it, there are those who take things into consideration and those who do not. Those who actually give a damn and those who dont. People make mistakes, but as hunters isnt our job from an ethical standpoint to do our best to minimize them for the animals sake? Isnt that what hunting ethics is all about?



In short, I would rather hunt with a conciensious but unexperienced hunter than a seasoned ignoramus.

Madgoat, He did have tags for both a cow and a Bull.
My point was that even though he was shooting at closer range and was supposedly an experienced hunter his lack of practice with the rifle he was using led to bad marksmanship and I think that that's worse (demonstrably so in results) than a practiced shooter with a well tuned rifle making a long range shot.........DJ

The story is absolutely true. A highly experienced guide witnessed the long range shot and used a Leica laser rangefinder to verify the distance.
The same hunter the year before on his first Elk hunt dropped an Elk with one shot at 513yds - luckiest hunter alive maybe - but it did happen..........DJ