Let's get the pot stirring......

One thing that just get's me is when I hear folks say things like "My 308 is just as effective as your 300 Win Mag."

There are actually quite a few individuals that believe velocity means nothing in the field. I simply disagree, it does have it's advantages.

IMO There's a huge difference in fast magnums vs. standard carts while afield.

For instance let's just consider some common cartridges such as the 280 Rem and the 7mm STW.

Let's reference trajectory first:
Consider both zeroed at 200 yards with a 160 grain NAB. The 280 loaded to 2700fps and the STW loaded to 3300fps(common velocities achieved by both). The 280 drops 34.2 inches at 450 yards where the STW only drops 21.8 inches. Let's say you sight both 2" high at 100, the 280 will drop 34.2 at 450 and the STW only 18. The STW packs 2187 ftlbs at 450 where the 280 only has 1395 ftlbs. I'd have to say the STW has a rather appreciable advantage over the 280 in terms of trajectory and energy. The exact same comparison can be made when comparing the 270 win to the 270 Weatherby or the 30-06 to the 300 Weatherby etc etc...

Now, let's talk of killing effectiveness on medium sized game such as whitetail, mulies, antelope, wild boar etc. I've killed piles of animals with both standard and the faster magnum cartridges. I will continue to hunt with both as they both will kill the above but, they are not equal IME. From my experience, the faster carts do much more tissue damage which results in much quicker kills. Yes, they both kill the animals dead but, I know for a fact that faster velocity behind the same bullet will give more internal damage and expire the animal in a shorter time frame. I can honestly say that I have taken piles of medium sized animals with high velocity rounds and maybe I'm just lucky but, I've never had to blood trail and animal more than around 25 yards and most were DRT when using the faster magnum carts. OTOH when I use my standards such as 270, 25-06, 30-06s etc, I have a blood trail on my hands nearly every time. Granted, they usually only make it 75-100 yards max when vitally hit with a few going farther and a few no so far but, they do cover some ground most of the time. After you see this happen enough you start to truely see how much more effective higher velocity can be.

Most very experienced hunters I know have the same or similar views between the two but, there's always someone who claims the slower carts are the same as the magnums. While both are great and they both are more than enough to successfully take game, they simply are not the same.


Ya'll have a Good One

Reloader

Reloader, I agree that there is a difference in performance. The anti-magnums will counter with the "get closer" argument and the within "normal shooting distances" trajectory differences are irrelevent.

Generally what I like about my magnum cartridges is that I can shoot a proportionally longer/heavier bullet to the same trajectory of the non-magnum loads.

I agree Frank.

Reloader

I think Frank got it right. The 450 yard STW is nothing more than a 350 yard .280, except the 280 doesn't have all the recoil.

I PERSONALLY don't need a magnum above the .264WM, and don't have one above that. With deteriorating shoulders (hereditary), there is just no point, for me.

But I'm sure it will be a lively debate.

I own and shoot a number of belted magnums. I regard impact velocity somewhat more importantly than many hunter/shooters. (After all, a bullet without any velocity is harmless, isn't it?) I could care less about a "good blood trail" because that means that your bullet likely inflicted less than optimal trauma and your quarry is going to live longer and travel further than I regard desirable.

But the premise of your argument is that there is a 600 fps difference in the .280 and the 7mm STW. The real world difference loaded to similar pressures with appropriate powders is more like 300 fps (at similar pressures the .280 will do 2900 fps and the 7STW 3200 fps with a 160 grain bullet.)

I can also agree with your observations when shooting the lighter of the big game species (the ones you name are typically under 200 lbs and often quite a bit smaller). But what you are observing is primarily due to the tendancy of shooters to use a bullet that is too "hard", rather than the performance being primarily a function of velocity.

Those "hard" bullets do perform much better on light game at 3200 fps than at 2700 fps.

But rather than compare two 7mm cartridges using 160 grain bullets appropriate for elk, let's compare them using a 140 grain Ballistic Tip, which is more appropriate for deer. With that bullet, the .280 can generate 3100 fps, compared to the 7STW's 3400 fps. The 3100 fps muzzle velocity will provide adequate bullet upset (expansion) about as far away as you want, and also provides a trajectory that is, in practical terms, indistinguishable from the 3400 fps velocity.

The terminal velocity in this example of the .280 will be about the same at 500 yards as the 7STW at 600 yards. You wouldn't argue that the 7STW is not fully capable of efficiently downing a whitetail if the bullet is properly placed at 600 yards, would you? So doesn't that make a .280 just as good a 500 yard gun, and isn't 500 yards beyond the range that responsible hunters would shoot, anyway? So is there really a bottom line difference?

Now, if you want to go back to your 160 grain Accubond example, I think you can argue that a 7STW is a better long-range elk gun than a .280, and I'll support your argument. But you'll have to move that elk out to 300 yards or better before your argument has much merit.

On smaller game where energy is less of an issue one might retain the trajectory by going smaller and lighter. A 243 or 25-06 can shoot pretty flat

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report05.htm

Some of this makes interesting reading on the issue.
Some of this is spread thoughout the site, and you may find searching around a bit worth it?
I don't own any "magnum" calibers, so I can't really comment myself, though some of it seems to make sense.

I truly wish no cartridge would have ever been given the moniker "magnum". Then there wouldn't be so much this camp and the other camp, everyone would just like this one or that one.

Talk about the mother of all topics...
Faster cartridges do more damage. When you talk about killing power much of it is superceded by the physiology of the game. If the heart is destroyed or is no longer pumping, any animal has about 8-15 seconds of oxygen left before they fade. Where I see the difference in high velo cartridges is felling power... where a 30-06 220 at 100 yards will completely destroy a the heart and so will a 300wm 165 at the same range but in my experience the 300 will drop them where they stand more often... though again the animal will fade in the same amount of time as the 30-06. So the animals were killed in the same amount of time though the 300 has greater felling power.

I don't personally have anything against Magnum cartridges, I've just never needed one. All of my big game animals have been shot with a .243 Win, .270 Win, .30-06 Spr, and .50 ML. I do own a 7mm Rem Mag and I like it but I prefer to shoot my .270 over it. If I want a larger caliber I have a 8mm-06, .338-06, and .35 Whelen. I haven't bloodied any of the larger calibers and I'll probably never take my 7mm on any kind of big game hunt.

I've been lucky and have never lost an animal I've hunted and shot. I've made some excellent and some very poor shots but have been able to recover the animal every time. The poor shots I've made would have been just as poor with a "Magnum Cartridge" or one of my larger bores.

I pretty much subscribe to the philosophy that if you can shoot the rifle and shoot it very well then you can use it. I've seen too many times people who can't shoot their rifles regardless of the caliber. I have a friend who has developed a very bad flinch from shooting an 06 that didn't have any kind of recoil protection. He thought a .300 Win Mag would cure all of his problems, but he still flinches and still misses or wounds most of his game.

Two magnum rifles I want very badly to own sometime are the .300 and .375 H&H.

Ok, I'll bite! Yes magnums kill faster and damage more tissue. Yes, the magnums shoot flatter, but there are trade offs.

The magnums have a lot morer recoil! A .308 Win.(150gr. at 2800fps)7.5lb. gun = 15.8 ft lbs recoil at 11.7 fps. Compare to a .300 Wby. Mag.(150gr. at 3400fps)9.25lb. gun = 24.6 ft lbs recoil at 13.1 fps. That's about a 60% increase in recoil energy. IMHO that causes a lot of shooters to shoot less and shoot less often. ( To paraphrase Bill Miller) It does quite a bit to build flinches in guys that do make it to the range. I know that most of us are 10ft. tall and bullet proof and don't get flinches. Bull hockey!!! Less time at the range means more hunters out there depending on the poke and pray method of shooting big game.

The other problem with Magnum cartridges is the flatter trajectory and greater range. This is not a problem in itself but when Joe sixpack goes out with his .300 WinMag. he has read all the hoopla about it being a 500yd round. He sees a deer at over a quarter mile distant and can tell that it has antlers. Joe has never practiced at anything over 100 yards because 500 yard ranges are so rare. If Joe can hit that deer way over there he is just as likely to gut shoot it as to get a heart lung shot in. If Joe shoots at 475 yards is he going to be able to find where the animal was standing to look for blood? Joe shoots and magnum rifle bucks as they are want to do. Without a spotter he doesn't see the hit. The animal runs off and he doesn't know if was hit at all. It seems to me that at least in Joe's hands it makes the magnum round a game waster.

On average it would also seem that smaller cartridges at reasonable velocities give better accuraccy. Yes I know that many shooters have a large calibre magnum that has been matched to a hand load or maybe even a factory load that will print sub-moa but there are a lot more small bore tack drivers.

I think a lot of average hunters would be better off with light recoiling standard cartridges, more range time, less flinching, better accuracy and a healthy sense of what their capabilities with a rifle really are!

Ok, I have my nomex suit on. Go ahead and flame me!

I personally LOVE Magnums and guys who carry them afield...

While I am hunting with a 6 mm or a 6.5 mm of some sort.. Magnum users make me feel much smarter than they are.. cause I don't have to fulfill the need to impress someone.. and I find other outlets for my excess testosterone!

Magnums are like using a bigger hammer.. sure it can pound the nail into the wood... but it can easily destroy the nail doing so...

But my favorite cartridge is the very old 1890 designed 6.5 x 57 Mauser.. with that and a 140 grain Corelokt, I can hunt anything in the lower 48... which is pretty much my hunting world..

I won't get to go to Alaska to hunt and have no desire to go to Africa.. too many damn Africans there! If I wanna see Africans, I can drive down to Sacramento or Oakland...

Here is another consideration: I shoot both "standard" rounds and belted mags, but I think their effective range, the heavier bullets they can handle, and tradjectory are all dependant upon what conditions they will be used in. An eastern woods whitetail hunter will not need to shoot 400 yards if his longest shot opportunities will be 200 (I know I'm preaching to the choir here). Also, someone who hunts the western plains and mountains may only get an opportunity or two that presents a shot well over 300 yards. Whether or not they can handle the recoil/muzzle blast/etc, is an entirely seperate issue. The biggest issue (as has been stated) is familiarity with actual shooting experiences at the ranges in question, not just a quick look at the factory ballistic charts. I'll readily admit that I'm not fond of running too many rounds through a lightweight belted mag, but I shoot enough to be comfortable beyond the range I expect shot opportunities to arise simply to be more comfortable at those expected ranges.

gd

The following says it all:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

But rather than compare two 7mm cartridges using 160 grain bullets appropriate for elk, let's compare them using a 140 grain Ballistic Tip, which is more appropriate for deer. With that bullet, the .280 can generate 3100 fps, compared to the 7STW's 3400 fps. The 3100 fps muzzle velocity will provide adequate bullet upset (expansion) about as far away as you want, and also provides a trajectory that is, in practical terms, indistinguishable from the 3400 fps velocity.

The terminal velocity in this example of the .280 will be about the same at 500 yards as the 7STW at 600 yards. You wouldn't argue that the 7STW is not fully capable of efficiently downing a whitetail if the bullet is properly placed at 600 yards, would you? So doesn't that make a .280 just as good a 500 yard gun, and isn't 500 yards beyond the range that responsible hunters would shoot, anyway? So is there really a bottom line difference?

Now, if you want to go back to your 160 grain Accubond example, I think you can argue that a 7STW is a better long-range elk gun than a .280, and I'll support your argument. But you'll have to move that elk out to 300 yards or better before your argument has much merit.

Remember, it's the experience of hunting that keeps you coming back year after year. Those few days every year keep us obsessing about all the stuff that goes along with hunting--like bullets and ballistics.

That said, you'd have a tough time convincing me you'd feel disadvantaged if you could only hunt with a "standard" cartridge (and, for that matter, cup and core bullets, but let's leave that alone!). After all, what percentage of animals do you shoot beond 300-400 yards?

It's too late for this talk anyway. Time for bed!

friar

Of my two primary hunting rifles the magnum is less effective, when loaded to the same pressure, as my non-magnum. Probably has to do with the fact that I can get an extra 170 fps out of the non-magnum (due to larger case capacity of the non-magnum ~161gr H2O vs ~143gr H2O and the non-magnums longer barrel 26" vs 23").

Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Of my two primary hunting rifles the magnum is less effective, when loaded to the same pressure, as my non-magnum. Probably has to do with the fact that I can get an extra 170 fps out of the non-magnum (due to larger case capacity of the non-magnum ~161gr H2O vs ~143gr H2O and the non-magnums longer barrel 26" vs 23").

Go figure.

Could you give us any idea as to what cartridges you are talking about??

The largest calibre rifle I own is a 30-06. It is in all honesty probably the biggest recoil I can manage comfortably. Most of my hunting is done with a .243

With the exception of specialised dangerous game hunting, is there really a need for magnums? I suppose the answer is shoot with what you are comfortable with. But magnums do have their drawbacks, namely, more expensive, noisier, more recoil and more meat damage.

Having used and seen used a wide range of magnum and non-magnum rounds for all kinds of big game everything that has been previously stated is true. A case can be made for one or the other. Each class of cartridge has its pros and cons. I do think that as a general rule most people today tend to use too light a bullet for the caliber. Bullets in hunting situations usually perform very well; however, once in a while they will do very strange things. I have found that as the bullet weight goes down and the velocity goes up the chance of strange things happening also goes up. The two guns that I have seen the most strange results are a 257 Weatherby and a 7mm STW. My friend owns the 257 and I have the STW. In these guns the lighter weight loads (100 and 140 grain) most of the time killed like hot lighting but once in a while things really go haywire. My wife and her brother both shoot 308 with 180 grain loads and they are very deadly. The 308 does not appear to kill as fast as the higher velocity rounds but they are very consistent.

The age old argument of standard vs magnum is really a hopeless task. It comes down to what you are comfortable with and can shoot well. Personally I really could care less what gun I have in my hands as long as I can get out and go hunting I will adjust my hunting style and shots to the limitations of the gun and cartridge.
Russ

I have both mags and nonmags and I like each one I own for various reasons. I shoot all of them very comfortably.

In most of the applications I've hunted over the years with a rifle, I have not needed a magnum. I can think of 2 occasions where I'm glad I had either my 7mag or the 300 RUM in my hands vs a standard cal.

Most of the game I've killed stood 350 yards away or under. No need for a magnum, but they sure are fun to shoot IMO, and I have no plans in parting with either of the mags I shoot.

I have dismissed velocity in the past but not in a debate between a magnum vs a non-mag, but in one rifle with one bullet/powder. I do not get bent out of shape if the perfect load in one of my rifles happens to be on the slower side per that rifle/caliber.

Magnums kill a lot faster thats a given..............my experiences is between a 30/06 I shot over 200 head of game with and now a .300 RUM I have shot 40 or so animals with. The .300 RUM knocks the stuffing out of them more than the 30/06 does. Not to say I don't love the 30/06 it's great but so is the .300 RUM !!

For smaller game like deer and antelope, I would agree with the majority here that the medium bore magnums are better than the medium bore non-magnums. When it comes to heavy/large game I have seen very little difference between these cartridges (for instance 308/30-06 vs 300 Win/Weatherby, heck you can include the 338 Winnie too). They just suck.

Jarrod,
Probably bigger than most here would like me to state. The cartridges I was referring to in my first post are far from over bore, but they kill things REAL good (not to mention they are legal and highly effective for all game up to and including elephants)!

Think you "magnum guys" have a screw loose from all that recoil!

This reminds me of the quote by someone that states "even a 300 Weatherby becomes a 30-30 at some point."

Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther.

Pick what trips your trigger, they don't trip my trigger.

I have never felt lacking without one.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
On smaller game where energy is less of an issue one might retain the trajectory by going smaller and lighter. A 243 or 25-06 can shoot pretty flat

PRESUMING that you aren't talking to a card carrying member of the "Heavy Bullet Mafia"
who thinks that the 243 should be stoked with 105gr bullets and the 25-06 with 120's.

I talked about using Nosler 100gr partitions in my 25-06 on deer and from the screams of outrage
you'd think that the HBM people had seen 100gr partitions from a 25-06 bounce off of whitetail does.

While I am of the opinion that if you are going to load a 25-06 with 120's you might as well have gotten a 280Rem which will shoot 120's faster than the 25-06.

Frankly I originally got a 7mmMag to launch 120gr Barnes at 25-06 100gr velocities.
basically to "out 25-06 the 25-06"

If there is a deer that walks this earth that you cannot kill with a 7mm 120gr TSX I've never even heard a faint rumor of it.

And since people manage to kill Elk with 257Wby's and 120TSX's my suggesting that
I'd use my 7mmMAg with 140's isn't that out of line...

But then again the Heavy Bullet Mafia will come streamign out of the woodwork to scream (in all CAPS) that the 7mmMag isn't an elk gun unless loaded with 175's, but with 175's a 7mm MAG does nothing that cannot be done with a
carefully handloaded 30-06 and 180gr Partitions EXCEPT burn 20% more propellant....

Though another "heavier than thou" member of the HBM will say that a 30-06 with bullets lighter than 200gr is useless on elk
and I'll say if I wanted to shoot 200gr bullets I'd get my 338WinMag out of the safe.

It is well known what opinions are said to smell like, but the problem is that dosent account for the hot (foul) wind that accompanies some opinions like flatulence accompanies the material they are said to smell like...

My 7mm is varmint rifle accurate (AS accurate as my bull barrel 223Rem) and more accurate than my last 25-06 (also a heavy barrel rifle)
but speaks with considerably more authority
at the far end of a pennsylvania beanfield.

Not that I've ever had to shoot a deer twice with my 25-06, or for that matter seen one go further than it's inertia would carry it
(you shoot a deer while it's jumping over a fence and it usually continues it's flight
path but makes a really awkward landing

And I expect that this fall 120's from it's mouth will do justice to a speed goat
at my brother's place north of Casper...

I'd take the 25-06, but I sold it.... I'll build the next one.

AD

My hunting buddy was invited to go on a nilgai hunt in S. Tx and since all he had was his .270, he felt the need to up-gun and bought a .300 Win Mag (nilgai have a reputation of being really really tough to kill, deserved or not). I worked up loads with Barnes bullets and it shot nicely, had a Timney, and a 3.5-10 Leupy on it. He went on the hunt, shot his nilgai (one shot as it trotted through the brush at about 75 yds) and knocked it down right there. Then when they drove up to a feeder later, there were feral hogs under it, and he dropped two with a single shot. So-2 shots, 3 animals. Does that make it a better killer? Not in my mind, but then he is probably the best game shot I've seen, and is most tolerant of recoil. However, the downside is that he bought in to the "flat-shooting to 500 yds" hype and one morning he started shooting an a really nice whitetail when it was over 600 yds away and couldn't figure out why he kept missing. When I told him it was because he was shooting 3 or 4 feet under the animal, he didn't believe me. After several sessions, ballistics tables, internet searches, etc. he now admits that he was "misinformed".

I have a 7mm Rem Mag that I hunt with, but not because I have to, but because I like to. Accurate, and with the Pachmayr Decellerator pad it is easy on the shoulder. I also use my .25-06 and 6mm Rem - whichever one cries out to me when I open the safe.

If you like 'em, and shoot 'em well, use 'em. Are they for everyone? Clearly not.

I own and have used a variety of rifles-my best friend owns every rifle ever invented. Seems to me the "magnums" are better-but they are usually heavier and longer and bullet choice is critical. My buddy once busted a big whitetail with a .338 Win Mag loaded with tough bullets. He made two perfectly good killing shots but the buck ran more than 100 yards. Granted there was plenty of blood on the ground-but. I used to hunt with a .243 and every deer I shot with it dropped like hit by lightning. One day a big black bear came along at about 80 yards. I put two bullets into his lungs and he went about 40 yards. Ten years later I shot another bear with a 300 Win mag loaded with Federal's High Energy loads (200 Gr.NOsler partition). With that same rifle and load I made a real neat clean one shot kill on an elk. But this shot on the bear was the shot I should never have taken and it's a long story but I never recovered that bear. So my theory is: bullet selection and shot placement are the most important factors-then carry whatever you like. Now should we discuss Fords vs Chevies?

It has been my experience that the best shooting is done by those who practice shooting their rifle at various ranges. It takes quite a bit of shooting to really know your rifle, in my opinion.
In my observations at the range, a large magnum is declared to be sighted in with very few shots and the owner declares himself ready for the hunting trip. No real load development, only three shots at 100 yards and ( through my spotting scope ), about a 1' pattern on the target.
It seems to me that most people cannot handle magnum recoil and, because they fear to practice, they are a poor shot.

Taylor, you seem like a wise man. I hope you get one or both of the H&H cartridge rifles, cuz they are wonderful. I own a .375 and a friend has a .300. Both are very effective elk rifles. I have my .375 in anticipation of a Moose hunt in AK. The .35 Whelen is also a great elk rifle. The .375 is the only "Magnum" I own, my other 2 rifles save the .22 Hornet and .257 AI have taken elk, deer and antelope on a regular basis, and quite effectively. These are the trusty 30-'06,& 6.5x55 Swede. I did take a Big Horn many years ago with a .243 Win.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
I don't personally have anything against Magnum cartridges, I've just never needed one. All of my big game animals have been shot with a .243 Win, .270 Win, .30-06 Spr, and .50 ML. I do own a 7mm Rem Mag and I like it but I prefer to shoot my .270 over it. If I want a larger caliber I have a 8mm-06, .338-06, and .35 Whelen. I haven't bloodied any of the larger calibers and I'll probably never take my 7mm on any kind of big game hunt.

I've been lucky and have never lost an animal I've hunted and shot. I've made some excellent and some very poor shots but have been able to recover the animal every time. The poor shots I've made would have been just as poor with a "Magnum Cartridge" or one of my larger bores.

I pretty much subscribe to the philosophy that if you can shoot the rifle and shoot it very well then you can use it. I've seen too many times people who can't shoot their rifles regardless of the caliber. I have a friend who has developed a very bad flinch from shooting an 06 that didn't have any kind of recoil protection. He thought a .300 Win Mag would cure all of his problems, but he still flinches and still misses or wounds most of his game.

Two magnum rifles I want very badly to own sometime are the .300 and .375 H&H.

quote:

Now should we discuss Fords vs Chevies?

No need to, if you want talk about real trucks they'd have to have a Ram on the hood!

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

quote:

Now should we discuss Fords vs Chevies?

No need to, if you want talk about real trucks they'd have to have a Ram on the hood!

You eat sheep, you don't drive or ride them!

(Well, I'm sure many people do but they don't post it on a public forum)

Fjold,

Well said!

Personally, I've never had a need for any true magnum rifle cartridge and, in fact, take the opposite approach. For years, I've been hunting with cartridges featuring long, streamlined (heavy for caliber) bullets such as 6.5mm 140s. Pushed at moderate velocity, these bullets perform superbly on medium game and afford plenty of energy, penetration and tissue destruction to make 300 yard shots a breeze.

If a game animal is out of my comfortable range, I don't take the shot. Period. And if I can't cleanly drop that 250 yard whitetail with my little 6.5x30-30 IMP MGM Contender (140s @ 2500 fps from a 26" barrel), I can assure you that no mighty magnum is going to be able to do the job, either.

Additionally, bullet performance is much more predictable with cartridges of modest velocity, and there's virtually never a need for any "premium" offerings. And you know, I've never hit an animal with any of my non-magnums that complained about not being killed dead enough...

This depends more on the shooter than the carts. Strong men who train well with it can use a 300 or larger mag for just about everything with lots of confidence. Kids, most ladies and us old guys are probably better off with something lighter, or will have to put more time in mastering the larger rounds. Seems like you start with a 22LR and a 20 ga, move up from there and then in the end come back down to a 22 LR and a .410. Enjoy your journey!

Sure, I'll play along. I like both & shoot/hunt both (.280 & 7mmDakota). The more animals I take over the years I have come to realize the magnum is a great tool for shots beyond the 300yd mark. Closer than that & you have to start paying close attention to bullet integrity. The old saying,
just get closer", works most of the time, but the magnum shines when you just can't get any closer to a good animal past the 300yd mark. For shots under, I'm happy w/ the way the .280 kills game & it weighs in 1.6# less.

Ive hammered hogs at 100yds with 300weatherby180BT-3250+MV(83gnIMR4831)so about 3000+fps impact vel.?? broadside, stopping under the skin on far side.
and at 350yds with 338win230gnFS-2800mv, so about 2100fps impact vel.?? broadside, and kept sailing all the way through,
The .300weath. mushroomed to a larger dia. transfering much more energy on target in much more dramatic way.
The 230fs, smaller mushroom dia, much less impact speed and much less energy transfer into target.
However,of all that were hit correctly, none seemed to run or die any further, faster or slower than the other to any notable margin.

quote:

You eat sheep, you don't drive or ride them!

(Well, I'm sure many people do but they don't post it on a public forum)

Funny Guy Eh?.....

Here's a couple good ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onYGv6jRHiY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmofbFuJoT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoLifnrljB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFeCTIOWcE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwzzRxjp0aE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVIbJcsUDA



Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:
This depends more on the shooter than the carts. Strong men who train well with it can use a 300 or larger mag for just about everything with lots of confidence. Kids, most ladies and us old guys are probably better off with something lighter, or will have to put more time in mastering the larger rounds. Seems like you start with a 22LR and a 20 ga, move up from there and then in the end come back down to a 22 LR and a .410. Enjoy your journey!

I see the mag guys brag about the recoil of their "Big Bertha trans pasture hog homogenizer", but my experience is that size & strength of the shooter have little to do with recoil tolerance. I've shot with tiny ladies & kids who shot 12 ga O/U's all day at skeet with no notice. I sure can't do that. I've also seen big strong men develop fliches with a 30/30.

Regarding the mag Vs non-mags, I've also never felt a need for belt except to hold my levis up.
The magnums, produce more velocity, sure. But they also produce more muzzle blast, more meat destruction, more recoil, burn more powder etc. In 40 yrs gunsmithing, I've also found the hyper velocity mags to be inherently
less accurate in hunting weight rifles. But that's another thread.

I did a test, on a bet, once with a "Turbo-mag" guy to test penetration between magnums & std cartridges with the same bullets @ 100 yards. We used wet Atlanta phone books & guess what? I won the bet.
The .308 penetrated 30% farther using 180 gr bullets, than the 300 mag. The 7X57 did even better against the 7 mag using 140's.
Then he argued that we should have used tougher bullets so we switched to Nos. Parts and got basically the same results.
You could argue that the mags should use heavier
bullets and that's a valid point, but then the
velocities are getting back close to the stds...
They might be handy, way out where I would never take a shot, but at normal responsible hunting ranges, I just don't see a need for the belted mags. That's my dos centavos (gotta learn the laguage before the invasion)

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

quote:

You eat sheep, you don't drive or ride them!

(Well, I'm sure many people do but they don't post it on a public forum)

Funny Guy Eh?.....

Here's a couple good ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onYGv6jRHiY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmofbFuJoT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoLifnrljB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFeCTIOWcE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwzzRxjp0aE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVIbJcsUDA



Reloader

Yep once those ole junky fords start that wheel hopping that they are famous for you might as well write them off. .

When I was a teenager until early 20's I didn't like a cartridge if it wouldn't do at least 3,000 fps. Now that I am a little wiser I know that is not necessary especially at what I consider to be responsible shooting ranges at game.

Last year or year before during deer season we were over on our farm at the old house on it. It sits up on hill you can see across the road out across a couple long corn and soybean fields. We spotted a huge deer out across the soybean field about 800 yards away.
Everyone is like you can't get any closer to that deer than that. I was like why not. You go down to the bottom of the hill. (It's covered in trees) then you get on your belly and low crawl out across that soybean field. That didn't want any part of that. They wanted to shoot at it from 800 yards which they did with a 7mm Stw and they missed. I think they hit several feet short of it. To me that is irresponsible..
Why not put a stalk on it even if it means low crawling across the soybean field and then if you get close enough for a rresponsible shot take it. Instead of just turning one loose at 800 yards and hoping.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
When I was a teenager until early 20's I didn't like a cartridge if it wouldn't do at least 3,000 fps. Now that I am a little wiser I know that is not necessary especially at what I consider to be responsible shooting ranges at game.

Last year or year before during deer season we were over on our farm at the old house on it. It sits up on hill you can see across the road out across a couple long corn and soybean fields. We spotted a huge deer out across the soybean field about 800 yards away.
Everyone is like you can't get any closer to that deer than that. I was like why not. You go down to the bottom of the hill. (It's covered in trees) then you get on your belly and low crawl out across that soybean field. That didn't want any part of that. They wanted to shoot at it from 800 yards which they did with a 7mm Stw and they missed. I think they hit several feet short of it. To me that is irresponsible..
Why not put a stalk on it even if it means low crawling across the soybean field and then if you get close enough for a rresponsible shot take it. Instead of just turning one loose at 800 yards and hoping.

Absolutely !!!!!

Yes, I have one of those "turbo magnums" in a 338-378 Weatherby but that's because I wanted it not because I thought I'd be wanting to take a 500 yard shot ... For my elk hunting needs here in AZ it will be MORE then is needed but I'll be loaded with premium bullets and the range won't likely exceed 200 yards... Most of the time we get within 100 yards.... I won't take a shot much past 250 since that's all the further I practice... And I DO practice often with that boomer as well as non-magnums... I am a firm believer if you can't shoot it often then don't shoot it at all in a hunting situation....

Ken....