With all this talk about 7mm's and 30-06's etc, I thought I'd put this up.

Here is a paraphrase from a recent Jon Sundra article-

"To reach the same velocity with a .30 cal bullet as a 7mm with similar SD, you must endure higher recoil, for benefits that are not necessary"

Basically, he says the .30 at the same velocity will beat the 7mm every time,in energy, etc., but you must put up with more recoil, and the animals never can tell the difference.

(He also states that at the point where the extra enegy/weight/frontal area of the bullet might make a difference is when he would be shooting at something he shouldn't be shooting at with a smaller caliber, like grizzlies, buffalo, etc.)

So guys, here's another thing to argue about

Kind of a silly statement, as it can be made in any number of cases...

"To reach the same velocity with a 7mm cal bullet as a 270 with similar SD, you must endure blah blah blah"

And for the same reason a 264 is obviously superior to the 270.

Continuing with this logic, we could probably assume that by extension a 22 is better than a 30/06.

Canuck

ps: Gatehouse, I am still waiting for a response from the last guy on the list. Will forward his addy when he confirms he still wants it.

Thanks just the same, but I'll put up with the extra recoil........

If you're talking deer-sized animals, Sundra probably has a point, and I don't think you'll see much difference in killing power between the various .270s, 7mms, and .30s.

When it gets to bigger animals such as elk, I don't agree with his assessment at all. I've seen a marked difference in killing power between the 7mm magnums and the .300 magnums that is unmistakable.

AD

I believe Sundra is right, however I DON'T believe any of us could really tell the diff in recoil between a 7mm & 30-06, with equal bullets.

Interesting stuff. I use to hunt with a 7 mag, but found that it didnt kill any better then my 280 and 270, even on elk. The added recoil and noise accounted for nothing usefull. I do however see a increase in killing power with a 300 on game larger then deer. Recoil is not much of a concerning factor with the 300s for me, however, I see no reason to pick one of the 7 mm super BS cartridges when we have 280s and 270s.
Take care

What is the big deal with recoil. If you can shoot it once and it doesn't lay you out, then I believe that recoil should not be a factor.

The only time that I considered recoil for a gun purchase, was 223 vs. 22-250. The 22-250 jumps just a little to much to watch your target flying through the air. The 223 on the other hand, has minimal recoil allowing you to hold the scope on the target and watch the impact.

If I want something bigger than a 06 or 270 its gonna be a 300 Mag. or 338.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Well. While Sundra may be correct in that the recoil of the 30 caliber would be higher, say .280 Rem. VS 30-06, I feel the difference would be negligible. But then again, I think Jon Sundra is full of more crap than a Christmas goose.
IIRC, it was in a SHOOTING TIMES article, many years ago, the good mr. Sundra wrote that the 30-06 was a ballistic has-been compared to any 7mm. I figured at that point that he didn't know his rear end from a hole in the ground, and have considered his comments since as the blabbering of an idiot. You will notice of course, that the 30-06 is still around, and still one of the most popular cartridges going.
I read someplce in some gun rag where he is now considered the dean of gun writers. Well, JMHO, if that is the case, then the gun writing business has taken a long downhill slide.
Paul B.

If I remember correctly,what the guy said was when a 7mm bullet of like sectional density is shot at the same velocity as a 30 caliber bullet,you end up with 18% less recoil,with the 7mm.

I really doubt that any comparison between the two makes a hill of beans in the field, one way or another...

Gunscribes have just run out of stuff to write, and thats a fact. Its all been said.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

In his site on terminal ballistics Harald mentions that a hole of a particular size is required for blood pressure to drop. It says that the bigger the game the larger the hole that is required.

It's logical that Allen Day is right about this. That there is a relativity between the size of the game and the size of the wound required. Of course in general the bigger bullet at the same speed will make the larger wound channel.

With expanding bullets a few thosandths of an inch in bullet diameter may or may not result in a larger wound channel.Bullet design and velocity can be a far larger factor.

Well I used to hunt with a steyr scout in 7.08 and federal 140gr partitions or 160gr speer handloads. A friend of mine, PH in RSA and Tanzania still uses this caliber, in Europe and over there, but he bought a 9,3X62 for driven hunts.

The 7.08 kills everything reliably, but rarely does the bullet exit when a medium sized Boar is the target. Again on red deer, one has to look hard to find the entrance hole, and there is no exit.
I moved to the 308 (and now 300WSM) and 168 grainers while stalking, no comparison between the two: the 6 animals shot died closer and I got blood every time (two boars, three deer and a fox).
With the 350RM and DRIVEN -read stressed- animals, instant kills are the norm, animals are going nowhere but down (27 last season only, all stayed within 10 paces)

Mr Sundra loves his 7mm, but to me, this caliber is on the limit when tough game is the goal.
The 308 gives bigger holes, and now that we have premium bullets, SD is less important than it used to be. I'd prefer 308, 150gr barnes than 7mm 140gr at the same speed.

olivier

Perhaps people should read the subject article in full before slamming it or its' writer. I have read Mr. Sundra's article (and his many others on the topic of the 7MM) and what he states makes perfect sense from a ballistics and physics standpoint.

what a load of crap.Assuming a bullet of the same SD a 30 kills better than a 7..and a 338 even better..etc etc..it's a fact.To say that the most popular caliber in the world is unecessary is a stupid statement.I think he should put his 7mm JRS where the sun don't shine.

I've killed and seen killed enough elk to know that a 280, 7 rem and 3006 kill about the same. A 300 win kills alot quicker and more decisively than the less powered rounds. I like shooting the smaller rounds and use them alot, but when its time to stop the elk right now its with the 300 win. I've shot elk with arrows and wouldn't stress about using a pistol or muzzel loader or a 243 if you know your limits and stick to them.

I have a .338 and a 7mm mag and although I prefer my .338 WM for Elk hunting I have no qualms about using the seven mag either. I prefer it to my '06 or .308. I saw a video where a bull Elk was DROPPED by a bowhunter at about 15 yards! That's about as unusual as it gets. Make a choice and learn how to be effective. It may meen closer shots or premium bullets. It most often comes down to being able to place a bullet in the right spot at whatever distance. A bigger hole lets more cold air in, but a well placed hole is just as effective.

Ray you are correct it's all been said and done,but OH! what a great selection of projectiles for the 30-06.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com