If ANY of you Wolf lovers still think (if you are capable of rational thought?) that the Wolves are not seriously damaging are hard fought for Elk herds and our Hunting opportunities then JUST READ THIS!

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2004/01/08/news/01elkbzbigs.txt

There is one glaring error in the article - the number 1,400 is listed as the number of special permits issued for this herd this year - that number should be 140 special permits (and by the way it has already been announced that NO special permits will be issued in this affected area next year!).
Coming to an Elk Hunting area near you - SOON!

Thanks for NOTHING rmWf!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

THe same thing is beging proposed for Sunlight Basin, canceling all of the late season cow tags for next year. Hunter success is at an all time low. Opportunities are and will be restricted, and nothing anyone can do.

Concerned Hunters, see also, this article with the correct permit numbers in the afflicted areas!

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2004/12/17/news/02latehunt.txt

Kudu56: I have spent some wonderful times in the Sunlight Basin and it is a shame to see the Hunting opportunities harmed there by this "lie" the feds and the rmWf have heaped upon us!
Damn shame!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Elk Sign alone was pretty scarce while I was out elk hunting here in S. Oregon this last week...all the normal hot spots were pretty shallow.....I mean I wasn't even seeing elk fecees, which is usually all over the place....

Some of those wolves have migrated as far west as Crater Lake and the coast of Oregon... I have seen wolves in both locations the past several years....

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I don't remember the exact book, but Jack O'Connor postulated that big game hunting back in the 1940's-1950's was suffering in Western Canada. The reason was too many wolves.

He used to "bust up" wolf packs all the time, when he was hunting in Canada and Alaska.

We seem to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Dear seafire/B17G:

Since we are moving next week, I fit in the LOW COST,LOW QUALITY Entertainment daily in between sessions of hateful packing. I really enjoyed your comment.

Chris Bemis

Saw an article in the local paper that by the first of the year the feds are thinking of turning wolves over to the States of Idaho and Montana. Yippee. Trying to find the article. Saw no wolf sign during my successful cow elk hunt, first for several years not seeing sign.

Shoot

Shovel

Shut up.

Problem soon solved.

As I recall, the monsterous negative impact those wolves would have on the Elk/Mule Deer population was well documented and presented multiple times before the reintro. The loss of permits to hunters farther down the line WAS documented and expected.This is nothing that wasn't well known ahead of time. There was even speculation the anti's {PETA} would rather lose the herd to wolves than have hunter's in the field. Sounds like PETA, premeditated and executed this to it's full potential doesn't it? But it's all natural right? Even reintro a predator who's been absent for how many generations? It's been a feeding fest, the Lamb's {Elk/Deer} literally thrown to the wolves. No I don't live in the west, yeah I'm totally disgusted.This is nothing more than their agenda carried out under a different guise.

Chuck Scorse: "Monsterous" is the PERFECT description of this backhanded, deceitful and horrific "blunder" the feds and certain SO CALLED "pro-Elk" organizations have foisted upon us!
It, is also exactly as you describe in this regard - its an agenda, and that agenda is nothing more and nothing less than an attempt to stop, interfere with and interrupt Sport Hunting!
Nothing more - nothing less!
These recently re-located predators simply kill off our hard fought for herds of Elk, Moose and Bighorn Sheep to the point in many areas (as described in my posted articles!) that they can not sustain themselves (they are dying out!)!
I got a call from a 61 year resident of the Bighole Valley near Wisdom, Montana last night!
He is an 85 year old Hunter, Trapper, Varmint Hunter, fisherman, businessman and retired logger from that area!
He spends more days afield in that huge area than any other human alive today!
So far just this Rifle season (9 days old so far) he has found the freshly killed carcass's of 7 Elk - all killed by Wolves.
Think about that a moment.
He and his son have not seen any Elk in their normal haunts for this time of year! Again they have Hunted this area for 61 years (the father) and 50 years (the son). The dead Elk are being found in the open sage flats and "edges" where the Wolves run them down! The rest of the Elk are constantly stressed and on the move!
Thats what Wolves do to game when there are to many predators and to little prey!
I know thats the nature of Wolves, but the humans who worked so hard for so many decades to bring our herds up to such healthy sizes are being shortchanged (screwed to the max!) by these "big lies" the feds and the rmWf have foisted upon us!
Big lie number one was that they would hold the Wolf numbers to a maximum of 325 animals in the tri-state re-location area!
Even the "greenies" allude to there being AT LEAST 1,090 Wolves and many biologists put the number at 1,250 for a MINIMUM!
Remember, o'sage Wolf Lovers and rmWf types - EACH Wolf eats the bio-mass equivelent of 1.8 Elk per MONTH!
1,250 Wolves destroy the bio-mass equivelent of 27,000 Elk per year!
How long can we still sport Hunt with numbers like that going down every year?
And by late spring of next year we may have as many as 1,500 or 1,600 Wolves to "feed"!
Anyone heard anything from the rmWf?
Like, hey the Wolves are eating the shit out of the very animals we stir money around to try to enhance (allegedly)???
I haven't!
Anyone heard the rmWf ask ANY federal or state agency to do anything to halt this slaughter by the super overabundant Wolves?
I haven't!
Or, to hold any agency to their promise of ONLY 325 Wolves?
I haven't!
The rmWf is full of happy words, hot fucking air and NOTHING MORE!
ANYONE that still endorses or supports the rmWf is a fucking idiot!
The shame of it all is that many of our hard fought for Elk and Big Game herds are going up in Wolf farts and a FEW greens on this forum and many at the rmWf can't see the writing on the wall! The feds want to destroy sport Hunting.
Meanwhile it "plods" along, the green feds and the rmWf "agendas" are destroying a valuable and enjoyable resource that many of us love!
A resource that may never be allowed to come back - and that fits into their agenda just fine, I am sure!
After all when all the Elk are gone the Wolves can learn to eat more Moose, and Bighorns and Mule Deer and Whitetailed Deer and Antelope and cattle and horses and Llamas and on and on!
"Monsterous agenda" is THE perfect description of the situation today.
Thanks Chuck for that simple and right on observation.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmintguy. Do you know what the elk count is for this year? I think that article is a couple years old, and thats why the numbers are not 'adding' up so to speak.

Ivan: The Game Warden Biologist used to ocome to the Beaverhead Outdoors Associations monthly meetings once every year and relay to us the aerial census numbers of Elk he himself counted from their helicopter for the 10 SW Montana game management areas. Once Wolves became a "problem" all of a sudden he quit coming.
PC - maybe?
Coincidence - maybe!
The short answer is - I don't know the last years census numbers other than whats in the article.
I just yesterday drug this article up on my puter (the first article) unless my puter is playing tricks on me it was dated just a couple days ago?
Did you go to the link and see the by-line date?
I will go see if I can find the census numbers from another source.
I do know this that conditions and herd reproduction have been great in areas that the Wolves are not overly populated in "as yet" - so to speak.
The second article I linked to IS one I saved in my online files and is older - from last year if I recall correctly!
Had occassion to Hunt Antelope in eatsern Montana a few weeks ago, along with a rancher who lives and ranches in the Paradise Valley (one of the Wolf afflicted areas south of Livingston!) and his recital of the various troubles the Wolves are dealing out to Elk and livestock is shocking!
Among other things he was stopped in his truck (on his ranch) and chatting on the cell phone (at a "Montana phone booth" - which is a high point where cell phones begin to work!) when some Wolves came and surrounded his truck!
I will try to clarify - or verify the dates of the first article I posted a link for - I don't actually buy newspapers and have not for over 50 years 9and of that fact I am VERY proud! I do though stoop to perusing them online via my puter.
Let you know ASAP what I find.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The reason I asked was because I saw the date on the online paper and then the numbers didn't add up... they seem like they're the same as the numbers from last year or maybe 2 years ago? It looks like the link has the date 2004 imbeded in it as well. Also I think the F&G does thier counts in Jan or Feb after the hunting season. I'm hoping that the elk numbers have finally leveled off, but I doubt they have. From the sounds of it we might be in for a bad winter too. We need to start whacking them fuggers in the problem areas.

BTW do you know who the ranchers were that smoked the two wolves in the Mad valley last week? I never heard, but havn't made any phone calls yet. I have a feeling that a few sportsman will be helping out the wolf population again this season.

My guess is the article was reprinted just in time for the elections...

Ivan: Maybe that was it?
I did get an E-mail back from Mr. Scott McMillon the writer of the article and he only partially answered my inquiry.
No new census numbers since last spring (spring 2,006) he relayed. And he didn't mention those.
I did see in the local Dillonite Daily paper that over opening weekend (October 22nd and 23rd - Sunday and Monday) the Montana Fish and Game Department interviewed (searched?) 3,375 Hunters who were checked with 192 Elk at 9 different SW Montana Game Check Stations.
Or 1 successful Hunter per each 17.6 Elk Hunters checked on those two days.
No word on how many Wolves were "harvested"!
I am beginning to wonder if this was a reprint or computer news site foul up or maybe just re-printed as a "reminder"?
I have seen the 140 Special Tags number for that area this year in so many places I am sure about that and the no tags there in 2,007 situation.
More later.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Ivan: I asked the F&G Biologist Warden when they conducted their aerial census's at a Beaverhead Outdoors Association meeting a few years ago. He was the counter onboard the flights by the way.
He said they make two aerial census counts each year. One count is done when the Bulls still have their antlers on (for Bull to Cow ratios) then later once the Calves are born they do another aerial census to determine the Cow to Calf ratio!
More later.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmintguy

Using all of the data {maybe skewed, understated} in regards to the wolf numbers. I have no idea how to manage or reverse this.Even if a season was provided {doubtful} and they where sport/varmint hunted with or without the use of guides/licenses or dogs, I don't believe the numbers will ever be controllable or the negative impact ever completely known. Finding seven carcasses is a feat upon itself. The real answer to this won't come until these wolves start taking down cash animals that impact the RIGHT POCKETS. Just any livestock rancher won't be good enough. By that time you know what all else will look like.If every hunter that walks the planet shot every wolf they came across it still would be minimal. How many expose themselves? Which is why the refusal to permit the states to self regulate is another line of shit. Earlier this year the same shitheads that dumped the wolves on you slated a program to dump them on us in NY. in the Bob Marshall wilderness, as you know there ain't a lot of wilderness in N.Y. but these assholes are dead set on bolstering a headcount here. They've already dumped the Cougar's on us, they wouldn't admit that until a local woman who complained about "seeing big cats" was rebutted too many times by the D.E.C. and told them "the next time I'll shoot one for you" then the response changed. "Ummh... no don't do that". Yeah they're Cougar's....we've released two of them. The lies never end. When the plans where put to print to dump the wolves {in Yellowstone} I tried like hell to push people into this, I knew what would happen, I read the reports, the buttheads in the East didn't care, wasn't in their back yards. But I really did try. Not all of us stuck in the East are oblivious of what was done, and we haven't turned our backs, at least I haven't.

Thanks for the info VG.

BTW I here that the elk hunting has been pretty good. Did you ask if those numbers were normal or above/below? Sound pretty high to me.

Chuck Scorse: Please follow the link I am attaching and you will see that some state game folks are finally getting tired of the hidden agenda and lies as well!
This story out of Idaho ought to about put the lid on the Wolf lovers rhetoric!
The Wolves SIMPLY are destroying our hard fought for Big Game and destroying our Hunting opportunities!

Link: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ID_WOLF_PLAN_MTO...OME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Thanks for nothing rmWf!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Nothing will be done, the same as Wisc., and Mn. The feds have the uppper hand and all control and they will use it. No good has come or ever will come from the reintroduced wolves, except to give pro-wolf hunters a woody!

Kudu56: Yes, isn't it "funny" how the feds have control even when they don't have control!
This is a tough one we have gotten ourselves into with these canadian transplanted and now incredibly overabundant predators!
I see no good end of this "situation" for the sport Hunter"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

A bit of news on the spread of Wolves to far eastern Montana - and the damage done there to livestock (let alone the Deer herds there!).
Follow link: http://fwp.mt.gov/news/article_5003.aspx

Thanks for nothing rmWf!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Michigan is headed in a similar direction it seems. Wolves have already infested the Upper Penninsula and the MDNR is begining to place limitations on hunting in some UP counties. They are believed to have now crossed over to the Lower Penninsula.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153--153440--,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10319-136149--,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_41978-146793--,00.html

As frustrating as it is I would urge re-consideration before applying the shoot, shovel, shut-up approach. I know in MI the DNR, courts and lefties will go to great lengths to prosecute anyone caught doing so - and the penalties are not insignificant.

I don't think it is out-of-line to predict that wolf populations across the Northern states WILL increase significantly and game populations WILL decline significantly as a result. This WILL have a significant impact on hunting.