Space Saver Deletion

[ 11-16-2002, 20:00: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Space Saver Deletion

[ 11-16-2002, 20:01: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Eye Openers for me:

The willingness to use the .416 and larger calibers.

All those who chose to use solids had selected a .375 or larger chambering.

So little support for the .338 Win.

In all, 34 of 45 selections* were in .375 or larger chamberings. A very strong bias towards being prepared for the very largest game.

A single sub .30 caliber selection!

What's your read? *Updated

[ 11-14-2002, 14:56: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

I assumed we must chose real componites. If conceptial pieces were allowed, I would take a 300 grain bullet for the .338 Lapua. The front of the bullet being like a Ballistic Tip, and comprising a third(or slightly less) the overall weight. Backed up by the remainder of the weight in a Partition Gold type base. I think this would work nicely one many things, and satisfactorally on the reaming things.

Nick, where are you at in NYS? I just moved out from there. I used to live in Port Ewen, which touchs the south side of Kingston.

Kristofer

[ 11-11-2002, 07:29: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

KBGuns,
I'm on the south shore of Long Island near Jones Beach.

Wstrnhtr,
You're right of course but I would have thought we'd see more .338's using solids and stuff like that. These guys are tough!

[ 11-11-2002, 07:41: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick, you're right about the "Big Gun Bias." And if the conditions of our choice had not indicated that I would have to shoot in Africa, I would have chosen a considerably smaller rifle.

Also, the ONE BULLET/ONE LOAD I think spooked a lot of us.

All in all, I thought everyone's choice was more sensible and reserved than I expected.

The one caliber/one bullet criteria serves to make people focus. No options, no bullshit, Dad used to say.
I agree with you though, they did a great job on this. Every choice made good sense to me, in one way or another.

Nick - I wonder what everyone would say if given the choice of a one animal dream hunt...any place, any rifle or pistol, but ONE animal. Give the load and tell why you picked animal X.
Maybe even tell HOW you would like to hunt it, i.e. horseback, machan, ambush, swamp buggie, airplane.

Anything from dingos in Australia to fags in Central Park...buffalo to bullfrogs.

Remember, Nickudu is buying!

BTW- I answered your last post on the other thread.

That's a good idea for a new thread. Get started on it and I'll chjeck it out tomorrow. I'm hittin' the hay now. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I really like my 338 win. mag,I really like my 375 rum, but one gun and one bullet i think a little bigger never hurt -
up to the 416's.

Pecos45,
As far as your one animal dream hunt goes i think it would be a brown bear hunt, the huge ones in Russia or costal browns I read about in Alaska. When hunting deer or grouse not too many worries but big browns would get a lot of adrenaline pumping! Gun would be my remington 375rum because it's the largest caliber i have now, although would like something that was crf.

Nickudu,

Thank you for a very interesting topic. I thought the results were very interesting and showed that the participants put quite a bit of thought into their choices. I guess the thing that got my attention was that the choices made were combinations that the poster seemed to be very familiar with, something that had performed well for that individual, something they had EXPERIENCE with. Personal experience; a rare commodity of late. Impressive choices!

Life is good.

Joe

OVIS,
100%, my friend. An excellent and important observation. Shooter confidence is key and our allegiance to what has worked for us before often plays a major role in our performance afield.

Thanks, Joe

Nickudu

Thanks for your evaluation, I think about the 375 or 416 in the future and those seems to be a good choice bot of them.

I think if you'd asked the question "one cartridge, one bullet for everything on earth other than the big 5", you'd get a much different result.

I am surprised that so many went below the 375 when you consider that the original intent was to include rhino, hippo, elephant and cape buffalo. Not that you couldn't kill those animals with something less, but not many would plan to.

FWIW, my pick would be 375 H&H and 300gr Swift A-frames.

Canuck

Nickudu,
Now you gotta add a new one: 375/404 with 300 grain "Switch Point."

Your question begged for an all round "bigger calibre" rifle to be chosen. All though I may never get to Africa, I can never be sure I won't make it, therefore if I am only allowed one big game rifle it had to be for me the .416 Rigby, recoil is bearable, it shoots pretty flat and can stop anything with a well placed woodleigh 410 gr SN.

Those who chose calibres smaller than .375 H&H are in reality choosing the firearm that would be perfect for the majority of there hunting, and thats fine, but if one makes it to Africa even if they feel they will not be at the moment "they might" and for that reason you just have to opt for the bigger calibre as that will be the most important/exciting hunt of your life and although it will not represent the majority of your hunting, no doubt it will be the one you wish to be best prepared for.

So there you have it Nickudu, that is the my own eulogy for my choice of a .416 Rigby loaded with 410 gr SN's.

Secondly a forum such as this is extremely representitive of "firearm enthusiests" a sample of shooters which in my opinion are more likely to hunt Africa, many on this forum already have and many will. I hope to some day myself. I bet your average Jo shooters would provide results entirely different to the one here on this forum. In that respect we could say that we have subjected our selves to "sampling risk" meaning our conclusions are based on a sample which would be different from the conclusion reached should the entire population of shooters be subjected to the same question.

Have I bull-shitted enough Nickudu

Canuck,
You're in! I agree with all your comments and thank you for them.

DaggaRon,
I responded to your post on the original thread.
Shall I put you in for the .375/.404 with a particular 300 grain bullet??

P.C. - 100%, my man. I intentionally tailored the question for this Forum, knowing, full well, the leanings toward and the potential for, big game hunting on a worldwide basis. I wanted a 2002 evaluation of what are perceived as the best "one caliber/one load" choices for the global hunter and I truly think we have elicited some extremely well thought out and highly provocative responses from a prime source: The members of the Accurate Reloading Forum.

[ 11-14-2002, 14:59: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick,

Those 2 buffalo you shot with your 505 and 570 grain X bullets....if you had to make an educated guuess what do you think the outcome would have been with the same shot placement with a 160 grain Failsafe in 7mm Mag or a 180 grain Failsafe from 300 Mag.

Mike

Assuming good bullet performance and similar shooting conditions? DEATH.

Perhaps not so efficiently, so safely, so impressively, but DEATH, just the same.

Alter the conditions and you might be very happy to have .50 caliber & 570 grains to work with and that's where it's at, my friend.

Nick,

The theory behind my selection of 7mm Mag is as follows and would like you comments:

1) On very large game even the big calibers are only small.

2) On very large game the amount of animals shot is very small and that makes it difficult for "improvement" to show up. For example, 270s and 308s are a lot more effective on pig, roo and goat size animals than is the 243, but you would not ant to make any heavy bets if only a couple of animals were shot.

I think if two us went shooting across the world and one of us had 7mm Rem (or similar) and the other had a 375 or 416, then an "observer" would declare at the end of a 1 year trip that the shooter with the 7mm Rem had the best results.

Also, as I said in my selection posts, I have eliminated any personal desire to use a particular caliber.

Mike

[ 11-12-2002, 18:27: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike375:
[QB]Nick,

The theory behind my selection of 7mm Mag is as follows and would like you comments:

"1) On very large game even the big calibers are only small."

True, as a matter of physical relativity to the animal at hand, but completely untrue when based upon what hunting experience has taught us.

2) "On very large game the amount of animals shot is very small and that makes it difficult for "improvement" to show up. For example, 270s and 308s are a lot more effective on pig, roo and goat size animals than is the 243, but you would not ant to make any heavy bets if only a couple of animals were shot."

Smaller in number, yes, but far more demanding in the way of bullet requirement and appropriate power. Performance over the long-haul is exactly how the determination for the need of heavier calibers has evolved.

"I think if two us went shooting across the world and one of us had 7mm Rem (or similar) and the other had a 375 or 416, then an "observer" would declare at the end of a 1 year trip that the shooter with the 7mm Rem had the best results."

Quite possibly, assuming you are still alive, of course.

[ 11-12-2002, 18:46: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick posted:

Performance over the long-haul is exactly how the determination for the need of heavier calibers has evolved.

Agree, but an individual shooting maybe one or two animals will not see it, especially since the caliber are so marginal.

On smaller animals the bigger caliber is so overwhelming that the difference is immediately apparent.

Would you agree that with the very big game that with only one or two animals to be shot, the "luck of the draw" could favour the 7mm Rem over the 416s?

Mike.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike375:
[QB]Nick posted:

Performance over the long-haul is exactly how the determination for the need of heavier calibers has evolved.

"Agree, but an individual shooting maybe one or two animals will not see it, especially since the caliber are so marginal."

More properly stated I think is: "may not see it".
Depending on how unlucky one is, it may show up straight away, with unfortunate results.

"On smaller animals the bigger caliber is so overwhelming that the difference is immediately apparent."

Again, this may be so, but bigger calibers often bring bigger bullets of heavier construction. The resultant tissue damage on lesser game may very well be less dramatic than with a faster, lighter, more frangible bullet. I think you know this to be true.

"Would you agree that with the very big game that with only one or two animals to be shot, the "luck of the draw" could favour the 7mm Rem over the 416s?"

Sure it could, as you well know, but the real question here is: "Is that how you wish to play it?" "Are you limiting yourself to just one or two animals of this category?"

I opted for a caliber which has proven, over time, its adequacy over a wide range of game. Further, I've ensured that I have strong hands-on experience with it. Thus, I have elected to go with the .375 and a bullet that I feel strikes the best balance in regard to trajectory and raw power.

[ 11-12-2002, 19:59: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick,

With bigger calibers on small animals I was thinking of 375 and 458 with the lever action bullets.

When you started the "survey" thread I thought it would be almost all 375 H&H and the ones that were not 375 would have been 338 Winchester and some 416 Rigby fans.

I am heading to bed now.

Mike

I think the "heavy" is a the only sane choice, given the limited choice of bullet, and the size of the animals in the world. A big bullet will take big animals effeciently, and smaller animals even better.

NOW! if given a choice of bullets my choice would change! I would use the same 375 H&H rifle, but would add a 300 gr solid to the 300 gr Nosler Partition! Big change HUH?

Mac, I would do the same. I'd go with the 300 Hornady, which I know shoots to much the same group as my 270 Barnes "X" does @ 100 yards, with 3 different powders. This was my back-up rig until I built the .505, which I now back-up with a .416 on buffalo hunts.

Below, are the results of "Select One From Column A" thread:

1-7mm Remington Magnum with 160 grain Failsafe
__________________________________________________

2-.30-06 Springfield with 160 grain GS HV
--.30-06 Springfield with 180 gr. Rem. Core-Lokts*

3-.300 Weatherby Magnum with 200 grain Nosler PT
--.300 Weatherby Magnum with 200 grain Barnes "X"
--.300 Winchester Magnum with 200 grain Nosler PT
__________________________________________________

1-.338 Winchester Magnum with 250 grain Nosler PT
1-.340 Weatherby Magnum with 300 grain Woodleigh
1-.338 Lapua with ?
1-.338 Lapua with 250 grain CT Partition Gold
1-.338 RUM with 250 grain Swift A-frame
__________________________________________________

.358 Norma Magnum with new 275 grain A2 Solid*
__________________________________________________

2- .375/.338 with 270 grain Barnes "X"

15-.375 H&H with 300 grain bullet (2)
---.375 H&H with 300 grain Barnes "X"(2*)
---.375 H&H with 300 grain Swift A-Frame(4)*
---.375 H&H with 300 grain Nosler PT (2)
---.375 H&H with 300 grain Old Style Hornady Solid
---.375 H&H with 300 grain Solid
---.375 H&H with 270 grain Barnes "X" (3)*
---.375 H&H with 270 grain Failsafes*

1- .375 A.I. with 300 grain Swift A-Frame
1- .375 A.I. with 300 grain Barnes "X"*
1--.375 Weatherby with 300 grain Barnes "X"
1--.375 RUM with 300 grain A-Frame
1--.375/404 with 300 grain Barnes X
__________________________________________________

1-.416 Taylor with 400 grain Speer AGS Solids

6-.416 Remington with 350 grain Swift A-Frame(2)*
--.416 Remington with 400 gr. Speer AGS Solids.
--.416 Remington with 400 grain GS Custom FN
--.416 Remington with 400 grain Barnes solids
--.416 Remington with 400 grain Barnes "X"*

3-.416 Rigby with 410 grain Woodliegh
--.416 Rigby with 400 grain Barnes "X"*

1-.416 Weatherby with 400 grain Barnes "X"

__________________________________________________

1-.458 Winchester with 400 grain Hornady (?)
1-.458 Winchester with 400 grain softpoint
__________________________________________________

1-.500 AHR with 570 grain Woodleigh FMJ

* Added after posting

[ 11-17-2002, 17:45: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

49 Selections were offered.*

1-.50 caliber
2-.458 caliber
9-.416 caliber*
23-.375 caliber*
1-.35 caliber*
5-.338 caliber
5-.30 caliber*
1-.28 caliber

Solids Specified by brand name:
1-Hornady (one "old type")
1-Barnes
2-Speer AGS
1-GS Custom FN
1-Woodleigh
1- A2

Softs Specified by brand name:
2- Failsafe*
5- Nosler Partition
9- Swift A-Frame *
14- Barnes "X" *
1- GS HV
1- Combined Technologies Partition Gold
3- Woodleigh
1- Remington Core-Lokt*

Doublechecks most welcome!
* = Updated Since Initial Posting

[ 11-17-2002, 17:49: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

1-.50 caliber
2-.458 caliber
7-.416 caliber*
23-.375 caliber*
5-.338 caliber
5-.30 caliber*
1-.28 caliber

Notice that there are 10 bigger than 375 and 11 smaller than 375.

A question for you now Nick. Of the biggest and smallest listed, that is the 7mm Rem for me and someone with a 500, which would choose of those two to meet your critetia of the survey thread.

Mike

[ 11-17-2002, 04:54: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

One can only respond to this from a current and personal perspective. As a strong handloader and an aging hunter with only Africa and mostly cape buffalo on his mind, I should take the .50, as I know it will all boil down to only a dificiency in trajectory, and that, only past 200 yards.

I'd rather deal with and adjust to a possible trajectory problem on lesser game than hunt, in the manner of choice, animals I know to be dangerous, with too little gun.

Now, I know this is not the answer you wanted and I saw the question coming days ago but it is an honest answer for ME at this point in time.

[ 11-17-2002, 05:29: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick,

I was not wanting any particular answer. Rather I was trying to see if you saw some point on the graph whereby the smaller caliber becomes better for your criteria than the larger caliber.

In other words if we reversed things about the majority of people will say that the 338 is better than the 375 for your pronhorn and the 270 is better again. However, most would take the 375 over a 17 Remington.

By the way, I went to the doctor yesterday and I could become Mike17 with this neck.

Mike.

Mike,
Your neck has suddenly become much worse? I am very sorry to hear of this, my friend. Let's hope for the best until all the results are in.

In regard to the reversing trend on the graph, yes. A hunters's preference, in the way of species, is bound to show up here, with some having slight interest in the very largest. All in all, on its' 90th birthday, I think the case might still be made for the .375 H&H being the finest hunting cartridge, ever.

Nick,

Yes the 375 is it. I have always fel that the 375 packed more practicality, performance, tradition and pizzaz in one combination than any other caliber.

Although I think the 375 RUM is also right there, especially for a shooter who wants to play around a bit and it will do top H&H ballistics in aneasy walk and with just about any powder.

I think if the 375 RUM had of been a Winchester caliber and chambered in the standard M70s or the CZ 550, we would see a lot more of them on the board.

Mike