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<Wes>
posted
One of the guys at work was telling how on Caribou hunts, he shoots them at 500Y. Wow, I said, what are you using? .300 savage was the response. Hmm, I thought. How well does it shoot at that range? He held up his hands, made a bull about 3" in diameter. That's pretty good, I said, Offhand? No, from a rest, he said. How about offhand, I asked. He showed me a bigger bull, this one about 8". OK, nothing more interesting here, thought I. Well, by chance, who appears at the range? Offhand, 100 yards, I'm guessing he shoots about 16", hard to tell as many rounds miss the paper. He was so beet faced embarrassed he only shot 1 group. Oh, and bench groups were about 2.5 inches. I'm loosing count of how many times this happens.

I think it would be interesting to get a bunch of posts, no BS, for offhand average groups with the weapon(s) configured as you normally hunt, dressed in clothing you normally hunt in. Sitting, knealing, prone or any artificial rests are excluded. Lets say the number of shots per group is 3 to 10 (please indicate), 100 Yard distance. Time not a factor.

Here's what I can do, from records, on average, 5 shot group, offhand, no wind, 100Y:

.375 A-bolt 1-4x scope: 5.61"(last 10 groups)
.243 M-700 3.5-10X: 3.38"(last 10 groups)
.44 mag DW M-44 8", iron:8.2" (6 rounds, not 5)(last 10 groups)

Multiply by about 2/3 for a 1 out of 5 good group, multiply by about 1.5 for a 1 out of 5 bad group. These are w/o slings as I don't have one on my rifle when I hunt, it's in my pocket.

Wes

 
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I can tell you what an outfitter in Canada did before he would take my son and I moose hunting.

We did offhand at 90 meters, standing in a light rain. we shot at beer (coke) cans placed into a gravel pile.

I nearly split with pride when my 13 year old son hit his can with his first shot! with a winchster 270 model 70.

I was next up with a merkel 8X57R double rifle that was made in teh thirties. with a nice Kahles 3x9 scope. man was I relieved when I hit the can with my first and second shots!! from standing offhand. Needless to say he was impressed enough, and we did not shoot any thing the whole next weeK!!except a bout a dozen grouse, with our 28 gauge shotguns. The local could not believe we would flush birds to shoot them..

 
Posts: 902 | Location: Denver Colderado | Registered: 13 May 2001Reply With Quote
<Don Martin>
posted
I would consider myself a pretty fair shot on game, but obviously haven't done the kind of in depth self-evaluation that you've gone through.

I've made some great shots(nothing on the order of 500 yard though, sorry, 456 is my longest kill), and I've made plenty of brilliant misses, but for the most the animals end up dead.

What I find particulary impressive Wes is that you are shooting roughly an 8" group with your iron-sighted .44 mag at 100 yards, that's far more impressive than your rifle groups, although I must admit those are excellent off-hand groups as well.

I would think your pistol's front sight would completely obscure the target at that range. But obviously you've found a way to deal with that. Way to go.

Don Martin.

 
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I'll let you know next week when I go to the range. We should also include weather conditions, as you did, since most of us hunt regardless of the weather conditions that are present.
 
Posts: 598 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 16 June 2000Reply With Quote
<JohnT>
posted
Wes,

You're one of the "straight shooters". Offhand I'd be reluctant to take a shot past 100 yards. Face it after a stalk, you're out of breath, heart rate up at seeing game, the wobbles start.

My hunting partner & I did some test shooting at 225 yards trying to hit an A3 size piece of paper. Out of 3 shots from a 375 H&H aiming for dead centre only 1 shot hit the target and even that right on the edge. We had a front rest (a fallen tree trunk) but not a very comfortable shooting position. Still we had a rest & no pressure as to time. Really made us take notice & we started talking 30-30 & open sights cause our shooting ability sucks! So we think, but really we are not that bad as what game we aim for we hit & put down. We'd been conditioned by all those articles that said what we should have been able to do with that "long range flat shooting cartridge".

If someone can really hit out at 500 yards, good luck to them but when does it become bad sportsmanship with the risk of wounded game? (Heck I can't see that far on 9x)American magazines especially go on about cartridges for 400-500 yard hunting. Unless I could take along my benchrest, laser rangefinder, 20x bullet drop compensating scope, I think 200-250 yards is a realistic maximum.

I like you think that there is a fair bit of BS that doesn't come out of a bovine's rear.

BTW those groups are good shooting for offhand w/o sling.

Regards,
JohnT

 
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I allways use sticks so can't truly answer in the way you requested. I don't measure hunting style groups but just want to get it in the kill zone of a paper deer target. I do take a LONG time getting the zero exactly as I want it.

Funnily enough I'm a better shot out stalking than on the range. When I look at a deer through the crosshairs everything else just vanishes.

I'll shoot a muntjac off sticks up to 100 yards. Off a tree a bit further and off a high seat up to 180. I like to be 50-75 though. The biggest advance in my shooting had little to do with practice or calibre but the the confidence that comes from knowledge that if I screw up my dog will help me out. On average I miss 1 in 10 shots.

From the above I reckon I will hit a 4 inch square 9 times out of 10 out hunting at those ranges (allthough in truth shots over 130 very very few) with those supports.

The biggest contribution to reducing my miss rate has been to convert from the 'fancy/precision' school of shooting to the 'put a hole in the front half' school of thought (again dog related) I cannot reccomend this no nonsense approach for small deer highly enough.

 
Posts: 2258 | Location: Bristol, England | Registered: 24 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Wes,

I can write a book about all the shooting exploits people claim for themselves.

I had one man come in here asking for 240 Weatherby ammo. I asked him to bring his rifle in, so that I can develop loads for it. He told me teh rifle was in Pakistan, and said "just make me something that shoot as well as the factory made ammo"

I made him some, and while doing it asked him what he shot with it. He said he had a farm, and eagles eat his newborn animals, so he shoots the eagles with his 240 Weatherby.

I asked him how far does he shoot them, he said "very far, around a kilometer".

My next question was what scope he had on it. He said "Oh, I don't like scopes. I use an open sight!"

Another great one is when someone comes and asks me to mount a scope on for him, and say "can you make it shoot straight at 200 and 500 yards?"

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

 
Posts: 69048 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Now Saeed, you know that all scopes come from the factory already sighted in...
 
Posts: 1519 | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
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I don't practice year round. I start going to the range about two months before hunting season starts. I shoot every weekend until opening and I am hitting within 6" by the time I leave shooting offhand. Obviously, off a rest, kneeling and prone I am within 3"-4" using iron sights at 125 yds.
However, the best shot I have ever seen offhand was a guy I knew in Texas. He shot a 257 Roberts. I watched him tumble a loping coyote at just shy of 400 paces. It wasn't a lucky shot either, I hunted with him a number of times and the boy could flat SHOOT!
Isn't that known as "gun control"?
 
Posts: 258 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland US of A | Registered: 01 June 2001Reply With Quote
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None of us want to admit that we are poor shots, so we always remember the great shots we made.

I shoot year around, and try to spend extra time shooting my 22 at a 8" gong in the back yard at 80 yards just before we go on Safari.

I practice off stix, offhand, and all kinds of positions.

I am like Saeed, in that I could write a book about "shooting exploits" I have encountered.

So I will give two examples:

First was told to me by a PH I had. He had a client out at the range with a new Dakota, Custom, $7000 rifle and big scope.

The guy sat at the bench and put 5 shots in one hole at 100 M.

As we was putting his gun away, PH asked if he could shoot tht milk jug laying by the target frame.

As the fellow say down, he said," No, just lean on the tree here, and make believe that it is as Warthog."

7 shots later, he has not hit the milk jug yet. It ended up being a long week for him chasing wounded animals.

The best shot I have encountered, was a French Canadian at Elk Camp in Montanta.

We were checking zeros on our rifles, and he was being picked on by the other hunters about his Win 88 308 Win with a peep sight.

So he reaches into a guys shirt pocket, and takes out his Luck Strike cigarettes. Now Luckys have a nice red circle on the pak.

He walks over to a fence pole at about 75 yards and sits the pak on it.

Walks back to the truck, picks up his M 88 and shoots the cigarrette pak of the pole with one shot OFF HAND.

Puts his gun away, and says "Next?"

I have had guys shooting 30-30 ammo in a
M 94 32 Win Special and wonder why the bullets are keyholeing.

Every trip to the range is a new adventure.

------------------
May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

 
Posts: 3994 | Location: Hudsonville MI USA | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
<10point>
posted

I may not be the greatest shot but I, luckily, have the gift of humility. I know what I can do and what I cant do and normally will pass a shot up instead of making a horses ass of myself.

That said , with a steady rest and a KNOWN distance out to 350 yrds the animal is pretty much mine. Thats no big brag tho, Im pretty lousy with estimating distance, past bow-range, and really need a expereinced guide or shooter if the distance is past 250yds to "range me". I dont shoot over 350, and dont much like over 300yrds.

So no long shot stories out of me. But If I pull a trigger then the animal is, for me, killable. I dont launch 600 yrd shots like a few boneheads I know, funny, but Ive never seen anyone actually make one of those shot's, tho ive heard thousands of stories of them, and seen a few attempts. Ive seen a lot of cripples in the game herds so I know a lot of guy's are trying them, what with their fancy lazer whatcha-ma-call-its and their 600 yrd rifles.

I'll be frank here. I just dont believe these stories I read, and hear about, of all these 500+ yrd kill's on game. Im not going to call a bunch of bytes on the screen a liar but the snickering you hear in the background will be me...........10

 
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Shooting offhand standing on your hind legs, any deer-sized game at 100 yards or more is a VERY challenging shot for most hunters. ANY kind of stabilizing rest -- a fence post, a tree, a log -- will make a 200% improvement in hitting ability. Shooting from a sitting position, without anything to rest on, will make about a 100% improvement over offhand. If you're lucky enough to be able to shoot from a prone position, you should be able to do nearly as well as from a bench. In other words, only shoot offhand when the terrain or the suddeness of the shooting opportunity demands it. Otherwise, sit, lie down, or at least lean on a tree.
 
Posts: 13258 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Fascinating posts... Few things bother me more then shooting braggers. Here in the southwest there are tons of guys with 7 mm STWs and 300-378 wbys, when you run into them during deer season they tell you in no short detail that they are going to shoot a 5,6,or 7 hundred yard mule deer. The desert is a very open place but the bushes are still tall enough to stalk within six-gun range. Why would you intentionally set out before a hunt to shoot an animal that far? I usually try to get a close as reasonable. When I lived in Alaska, I often hunted with local Indians, who almost always used 223s for deer. When I asked one guy why we were not taking up the trail of a deer he just shot... he said "ohh I didnt hit it... it would have dropped if I did". Our meat cutter would often process dear that had 6 or 7 223s stuck in them.
Ever see people at the range explaining to their ladies that the reason why they are shooting so poorly is that they don't have their rifle "sighted in right"?
 
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001Reply With Quote
<hsp223>
posted
Most hunters have a high regard for themselves as game shots myself included. However, the test you propose would in most cases would cause a lowering of the old self esteem. I don't need that so I'll just go to the range and blame all my missed or bad shots on the gun, the wind, the sun, my shooting partner, the scope, etc (I've got a million of them that havn't been used before). And while hunting I'll try to get as close to my quarry as possible and always take the responsible shot.
 
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I have a pair of 10" diameter armor plate circles suspended by chains, from a metal frame, one at 100 yds the other at 200 yds, in my back yard. I have a permanently set up bench rest , on a concrete pad with target stands at 100, 150, 200 and 300 yds. Over the years I have had many local braggers stop by to check zero or sight in a new rifle and despite all sorts of wild claims as game shots, few can hit the 200 yd plate even off the bench!
We routinely have 100 yd standing matches and that plate gets maybe 30-50 per cent hits. I have come to the conclusion that the "average" hunter is not only a poor shot but generally a pretty lazy hunter as well. Fey can judge distance, know little about game anatomy and most just can't shoot. The majority prefer to hunt from the seat of an ATV or a pickup than walk a hundred yds.

As far as shooting from a standing position, I do practice it, but seldom use it when shooting at game, unless the game is very close. As I can shoot about three times more accurately by sitting down with a sling, or by going prone with a bipod. No doubt about it, standing is one tough way to shoot accurately.

FN

 
Posts: 950 | Location: Cascade, Montana USA | Registered: 11 June 2000Reply With Quote
<Bill>
posted
I think most of these guys who claim to have 800 yard+ caribou shots are lyers, they do not seem to know how to shoot very well.

My theory, they either (1) can't estimate range, or (2) like to tell stories.

I can shoot about 2.5 moa in all unsupported positions, with the aid of a sling, and while sitting crosslegged with a sling and my 7 Rem I have actually shot three shot sub moa groups.

I don't position shoot often as I find it to mentally exhausting, what I do quite often thou is snap in at home. I also feel that the more you psoition shoot the lasier you get, as this happens you concentrate less and begin to slack off producing bad results. This leads to a lack of confidence.

This is where you really learn how to shoot from my experinece.

In the Marine Corps we would spend days, and even weeks at times snapping in on targets, from my experience it works quite well.

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 06-21-2001).]

 
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I believe that there are two things that will help the average hunter to become a better game shooter.
the first is to shoot the same gun for a long time;in my case,a Spring field Krag for thirty years,with a Weaver K2.5 scope.
The second is shooting competition;in my case, hi power shooting,from various positions and time restrictions.
Now that I no longer shoot competion,I do not have the confidence that I used to.
The skill,however,does not leave completely. Last year,I pulled a lucky 90 yard kill,in the woods.

------------------

 
Posts: 202 | Location: Newburgh,New York Orange | Registered: 21 March 2001Reply With Quote
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I posted a question on a couple other boards about offhand practice and how often people do it. I had just been to the range and was shooting offhand at 50 yds. This time of year I know that I don't shoot very well offhand so I start at 50 and then move back as I feel coomfortable. Anyway, I was shooting 3-4" +/- at 50 with my '06. For some reason I shoot my 45/70 better and keep them in a woodchuck target body at 50. When I get back to 100 yards I will let you know. For now it is practice time. Sean
 
Posts: 537 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 04 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Well, I'm the first to admitt I'm a lousy shot! I don't think I've ever taken an un supported shot at a beast at any distance and I would not shoot at a moving animal unless wounded. For me the joy of stalking is getting as close as possible/reasonable and taking a shot on an unsuspecting animal.
Nothing wrong with being a lousy shot as long as you know it!!
 
Posts: 5684 | Location: North Wales UK | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Shooting offhand standing on your hind legs, any deer-sized game at 100 yards or more is a VERY challenging shot for most hunters. ANY kind of stabilizing rest -- a fence post, a tree, a log -- will make a 200% improvement in hitting ability.

During a dry fire session last night I put up a picture of a deer at the end of the hall; the size of the picture would work out to about a 150-yard shot based on measuring its chest vs. the subtension of the reticles in my scopes. I was using a 2-7X scope set on 2X (because any higher magnification puts the target hopelessly out of focus at such close range).

I found that from offhand I was probably at about 30% hits (obviously based only on calling my "shots"). From sitting, probably 90%. The big surprise was that standing and resting my left (forward) hand against a corner of a wall was much more stable than a standard, braced kneeling position without a sling. Shooting sticks would be even better.

As for all those mighty 500-yard shooters, I would suggest that most of them don't know how to estimate range before *or after* the shot.

Even pacing it off will throw you off significantly if you don't know how long one of your steps is. I'm tall and lanky but when I had to take my pace count on a track (for a land navigation course) it worked out to 122 paces for 100m (call it 110 paces for 100 yards). I know from pacing across real hunting-type terrain and measuring my progress on a topo map that my real world pace count is even higher.

So if I were to equate paces to yards, I'd have a built-in error of at least 10%; I'd make that more like 40% if I were slogging uphill in the mud with rifle and pack. That kind of error turns a barely-reasonable 300-yard shot into a 420-yard fish story in a flash.

John

 
Posts: 1246 | Location: Northern Virginia, USA | Registered: 02 June 2001Reply With Quote
<George Hoffman>
posted
I am sure I am the worlds worst off hand shot. I use to tell my African clients, that if, they wounded anything and we got a charge he had better shoot real well, because I had missed the last three buffalo that charged.......
George
 
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<Harald>
posted
I am occasionally a good shot from the bench (meaning that sometimes I shoot as almost as well as my rifle will allow), but my practical shooting skill with most weapons is pretty lame.

Preparing for my Namibian safari, I took my brother's advice that I try strictly offhand shooting with my 25 inch medium-heavy barreled M700 (10.3 lbs) at 100 yards until I could consistently hit a ten inch circle in 2 or 3 seconds.

I barely managed it. I guess I had an 80% probability of grouping my shots into that size if I fired quickly. With considerable effort I could keep the groups down to half that size, but it took many seconds of steadying effort with a sling and I would quickly tire.

My best position was sitting. I made some 2 to 3 inch groups that way. Prone, even with a sling, wasn't as good.

With my Model 71 using a receiver sight I can hit a beer can at 50 yards with some consistency, but its much easier to point and hold steady with that rifle. Even so, my accuracy falls off a lot at 100 yards.

In Africa, my performance was mainly good (4 one-shot kills) and partly not so good (2 bad shots that required "fixers"). We used shooting sticks most of the time, which I thought would be pretty straightforward. I found that these required a particular method for best results. Its well worth practicing. My worst shot was taken prone using a sling. My best (steadiest) was taken using a sling and a sitting position. I later missed twice by grossly mis-estimating the range and being in too much of a hurry to recheck it. That was the most humiliating experience that I can remember. It was absurd.

The main lesson that I took away from my experience was that I have to take a steady shooting position or just pass. I have to know the range, not guess. Thats it. Doesn't matter how fleeting the opportunity. I learned that its infinitely more satisfying to take my time and do it right even if I have to pass up some "opportunities".

 
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I'll second how important it is to take time. I am particularly vigilent when I've had a number of blank outings. The temptation to rush starts to take hold.
 
Posts: 2258 | Location: Bristol, England | Registered: 24 April 2001Reply With Quote
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George H, that sounds like an interesting shooters incentive program you have there.
Did it help your hunters place their shots carefully, or did they try to get a little closer or what?

The last time I shot offhand at 100 yds I put shots 1 and 3 into the 10 ring on a 50 slowfire pistol target. Pretty good, huh? Except shot #2 was not even on the stupid paper!

I have a long way to go to shoot like some of you, but trying to get there is half the fun. Keep practicing without that bench, Bill

 
Posts: 165 | Location: Adams, NE USA | Registered: 08 February 2001Reply With Quote
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I shot my last deer offhand at 125 yards. He was standing still eating.

If you want to get good at offhand shooting, try NRA high power rifle shooting. 20 rounds of slow fire offhand from 200 yards at a 13 inch bullseye.

If you are shaking after stalking your game, you need to get into shape. The farthest I have had to drag/carry a deer back to my truck was approximately 3/4 mile and I wouldn't have even tried it if I wasn't in pretty good shape.

 
Posts: 598 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 16 June 2000Reply With Quote
<Wes>
posted
This is a good discussion. Going to a match, one really gets to see how well some people can shoot, given top notch equipment and lots of practice. It can be humbling. My current 8.2" with an iron sighted .44 won't win many matches in hunter pistol shileoutte, for example. When I shot a lot, I was down to about 6.5" and was pretty competitive. My brother in law, who, I think, won either the highpower or service rifle state meet in Maine back in late '80s or early '90s (I'd be easy to check, maybe I'm lying but I don't think so), was (is) an astoundingly good offhand shot with a rifle (even when that rifle is MINE!) It's fun to have a guy like that to shoot with, as it tells me how much better I can get, which makes us both think about why my groups are bigger than his, and that is what makes my groups get smaller. He won't shoot my .375.

The thing I don't have good feedback on, and the thing I hope to get here, is some good feedback on shooting larger rifles in the 50LB+ recoil class. I find this at the same time challenging and frustrating. They seem very sensitive to hold, much more so than, say, a 10 or 20 ft-lb recoil gun. Also, I find that I don't use my favorite stance when target shooting, as it kind of breaks down under the recoil of big guns. This makes me wonder: How much better can I get with this thing? I'd love to hear lots of guys say 3" 5 shot 100Y, because I'd then know that given the proper equipment, technique, and practice, I'd get to 3" instead of nearly 6. For me, holes in paper are a good guage. Holes are irrefutable proof that that's where the bullets went, like it or not. Also, a good, but not perfect, way to compare ability among shooters, and, for me, one's own progress over time. I'd really like to shoot this .375 at longer range (200Y offhand for me) animals, but until and unless those groups come down under 4", the .30's will do most of the work if I'm thinking beyond 100Y.

It will be interesting to find the level of the bar for .375, .416, and higher shooters. Lets include sitting, kneeling, squatting, and other variants along with offhand, as many of you seem to favor those in the field, but include the stance in the group size / number of shots / caliber / weather.


Wes

 
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Wes:

To at least in part address your question about the big boomers, in my experience, gun fit is even more important than with lesser recoiling rounds. My .450 Watts fits me like it was made for me even though I bought it used. I can consistently place 3 shots in 8 inches at 100 yards if time is not a factor. This is better than almost any other rifle I've owned except an 1898 Krag rifle, and my NRA highpower rifles. I have competed a lot in both highpower and smallbore, and learned that rifle fit and building a good position are more important offhand than anywhere else.

One of the keys to position is, to the maximum extent possible (even in a hunting situation) point the rifle with your body rather than your arms, and move your foot position to adjust windage.

With regards to rifle fit, make sure your head is level side-to-side, when your cheek is on the stock. If your head is tilted, your middle ear tells your body that you are off balance, and your wobble increases. Tilting of the head is common when you shoot a rifle (or shotgun) without enough cast-off.

 
Posts: 3857 | Location: Eastern Slope, Colorado, USA | Registered: 01 March 2001Reply With Quote
<Don G>
posted
I performed poorly my only trip to Africa. It was a combination of shaken confidence and lack of enough practical off-hand practice. (Even though I was shooting NRA pretty well at the time...)

My confidence was ruined after a kudu ran off from what I considered a perfect shot. I went downhill from there. I suspect it was slightly high, but should have been meat on the table.

I found out later the .308 Nosler Protected Points that I was using did not open at 308Win velocities. I shot a warthog end for end and another side-to-side with exit wounds of MAYBE 40 caliber. I had not heard of Noslers doing that before.

I am practicing offhand every trip to the range now.

Don

 
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At 105 yards, using a Springfield Armory M1A with a Shepherd scope, I fired a 6 inch group of 4 rounds. Using a Marlin 1894 Cowboy II I fired a 4 inch group of 3 rounds. It was sunny, around 65 degrees F and there was absolutely no wind.
 
Posts: 598 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 16 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Wes,

I'm not sure if this is in the spirit of the post or not, but try some tall shooting sticks. If you have time to take up target style stance and all that stuff, you have time to deploy the sticks. The are also great for glassing off and make a perfect "Remote Control" for your dog!

Pete

 
Posts: 5684 | Location: North Wales UK | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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