Need input on a rifle for a novice/ once a year shooter/ hunter. He has a Ruger 77 7mm Remington mag and wants to go to a larger more powerful caliber. He does not reload and might go through a box of shells a year. I am guiding him towards a 338 Winchester Magnum in ether a 700 Remington, a 70 Winchester control feed, or a Ruger 77. Will top it off with a Leupold 3.5x10 or 4.5x14x40 vari x 3. I will be going with this fella on a open range bufflo hunt in 2- months and he will also use it on elk. Thanks for your input. Jim the Plumber

The rifle idea is a good one, since the .338WM with the right bullets is plenty for buff. But instead of a high power scope, I would come down to a 2-7x, or perhaps 2.5-8x.

around 2.5-10x40 scope and 225 gr bullets.

I would also suggest a couple more boxes of ammo. I'd try to get him to go to the range 3-4 times and shoot at least 2-3 boxes of ammo through his new rifle in the next two months before hunting. JMHO.

Agree about the somewhat lower powered scope, and the necessity to shoot the new rifle as much as shoulders and pocketbooks can handle. A heavy recoiling rifle can take some getting used to. If that is not done, the shooter in question would probably be better off using his regular rifle.
- mike

I think the 3-9 would be a better bet, up here in AK, the 338 is kinda like the 223 in the Lower 48, damn near everyone has one or two...

Is the .338WSM legal for buff? Personally I would look at the .375H&H, or if legal a 9.3x62mm..For the non handloader, I would guess the .375H&H wins out on ammo availabilty both in the US and Africa,

Regards,

Pete

Pete E, I assume he is talking about bison often here incorrectly called buffalo ( not cape buffalo) and wapiti ,incorrectly called elk (elk is really moose) .I hope that makes it clear !! Anyway 338 is fine for either.

I agree with Pete.......375 H&H CRF topped out with a 1.5-5 or 2-7. You have something that you can do Bison,Elk,Moose, Bear and haul over to Africa. A time tested and proven classic that still holds its ground!

CZ 550 .375 H&H topped with a leupold 1-4VariX11 and loaded with a good 300 gr bullet like a woodleigh. They are weighty enough that recoil will not be an issue.

A 338 Win Mag topped with a Leupold 3-10x40mm Vari-X III will not only be sufficient for bison and elk, but will also be versatile enough for any other big game on this continent.

Any of those rifles mentioned, or a host of others will be good with a little tweaking. There's another thread going on now about which rifles are favorites.

If African hunting is not in the picture, the 338 Win Mag is a better choice for a novice. Hornady Heavy Mag and Federal High Energy rounds offer premium bullets and 150 fps over other factory rounds. There is a big sale of Savage stainless laminate 338s on right now...the cost to dealers is $309 so you can get a very good deal somewhere.

Although your friend would be just fine with his current 7mm magnum for either species, a bison hunt makes an excellent excuse to buy a new gun. A .338 would fill the bill perfectly. There are plusses and minusses to any of the three makes you mentioned, as well as others mentioned by correspondents. Any of them will serve him reasonalby well, so he should buy the one he likes the best. Assuming his new gun shoots them well, feed it 250 grain Noslers for whatever gets in front of it.

Don't even think about a scope with as much magnification as the 4.5-14 Leupold. It is totally inappropriate for a big game rifle and the high magnification (as well as extra weight and adjustable objective) are liabilities on a hunting gun. As suggested, the 2.5-8x Vari-X III would be about perfect, and the 3.5-10x would be the abosulute top power I would use.

I agree with the comments on the .338 Win. mag. for bison. However I think the maximum powered scope should be 2-7x with a 1-4 or 1.5-5x even better. Forget the 4.5-14x. Get your friend a Past recoil shoulder pad & make sure he spends time at the range praticing. He's gotta become accustomed to the recoil. Since he doesn't handload, make sure he he uses a relatively heavy premium bullet on his hunt. I don't use factory ammo so I'm not familiar exactly with what's out there but I know Federal loads 250 gr. Nosler Partitions. Also, make sure he familiarizes himself with the anatomy of bison. Their heart is located quite low in the body and he doesn't want to shoot for the hump. It's mainly grizzle & not a lethal area. BTW, in Alaska, if you should draw a bison permit, the requirement for a firearm is a 200 gr. or heavier bullet with 2000 ft. lbs of energy at 100 yds. That eliminates a lot of common firearms including a .45-70. That oughta give you're friend an idea of what is generally recommended. Hope this helps a bit. Bear in Fairbanks

The .338 is certainly sufficient for Bison but if your friend isn't recoil sensitive, a .375 or .416 Rem would be that much better. I would also sell the 7mm mag and buy a .300 Win but that is beside the point I suppose. Further, ammo cost isn't really an issue since you can get very reasonably priced .375 ammo from www.heritagearms.net. I personally shoot a .416 topped with a 2.5x Leupold on these critters.

If a .338 is the ultimate choice which might be OK since it may do double duty as an elk gun, I would second some of the recommendations made here that the move to a lower powered scope be made. A 2-7x or 1.75-6x or 1-4x Leupold from premier reticles would be just the ticket I think. I would also make sure to use premium bullets on this hunt. Call up Aleko at Heritage Arms or call superior ammunition and get some .338's laoded with heavy barnes x-bullets and solids. I shot my Wood Bison broadside three times with a 400 grain X-bullet and NONE of them exited. Take heed!

Also, listen to the guy who posted above and study the internal anatomy. The heart is really low in the chest and this really makes it difficult for the experienced hunter to shoot a bison. The tendency is definitely to shoot them too high. There is also a VERY strong tendency to shoot them too far back. The digetive system of a bison shoves the heart and lungs really far forward into the chest. LOTS of bison are gut shot when the hunter aims where he usually would on a deer or elk.
GOOD LUCK ON THE HUNT!!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

TOO the-GREEK-Maybe off subject,7mag to 300 win not much gained at all, some lost in fact, have seen more Buff's shot with 7 mag and -06's in Henry MTs, than any of the 2-300win or 338mag put togeather. Take heed 400 gr bullet 3 times where were you hitting it, how far away?? Too big of bullet,not enough power for proper penetration, TAKE HEED Better off yet I'd get the 300 wby all around and long distance for just about any-thing Compare--
300wby-200gr spire point
100 yds zero-2864fps-3643lbs energy
200 yds-------2676fps-3180lbs energy-2.76 drop
300 yds-------2497fps-2769lbs energy-10.41 drop
338 win-250gr spire point
100 yds zero 2417fps-3243lbs energy
200 yds-------2255fps-2823lbs energy-4.49 drop
300 yds-------2099fps-2446lbs energy-15.84 drop
JUST to show big a'int always bigger and better
Take HEED These were all top loads with Imr-7828 off the www.imrpowder.com and using the hand loader caculator. www.handloads.com/calc/ Right, Shot placement is every thing I,ve killed 3 my self-2 standing and 1- laying down out to 100-175yds one shot kill's with 7 mag-H-4831-69.8gr-139 Hornady interlock bullet. Moose can be tougher than some buff's- Also not suggesting using the Interlock bullet that I've used in 7mag since 1972, but the x bullet is not the only choice of good bullets either-

[ 08-23-2003, 21:52: Message edited by: 4bambam ]

4Bam,

I stand by my assertion that the 7mag sucks . . . too much velocity (another reason to stay away from the weatherby calibres), and not enough real punch (mass). Better bullet variety in the .30 cal too. I would prefer the '06 to it any day and on that count you are correct. Can't fault the '06 for anything. Moderate velocity, heavier bullets. Perfect.

I was standing about 20-30 feet away from the bison when I hit it right in the boiler room with the first two shots. I raised up on the third and hit the spine to knock him over.

As for the energy figures . . . I don't buy it. Energy is great until bullets start flying apart on shoulders or penetrating in wierd ways. Ultra high velocity does wierd things to terminal ballistics IMHO. Give me a round that might not exit (I'm using solids next time) but will penetrate and in a straight line to one that might blow apart on impact or banana around the target area any day of the week!

Further, When I sold guns at a buddys store while in college, I can't tell you how many 7mags we had returned after every elk season and traded for 300wins. Lots of guys where hitting elk where they were supposed to but not knocking them down . . . no bullet expansion at all just a nice 7mm hole. Or they were taking close shots that they hadn't expected and bullets were coming apart on impact. Too fast for a little bullet IMO.

I don't really want to debate the issues here becasue I've got better things to do but I think a large and noble animal like a bison deserves to be taken out quickly. I have no desire to chase one around all over creation waiting for it to bleed out because only the schrapnel of a 7mag bullet made it to one lung.

I take it you guide on the Henrys? Who do I gotta kill to draw a tag down there ?!?!?!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

[ 08-23-2003, 22:08: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

Like some others have assumed, I also assume you mean BISON, not Cape Buffalo, or Water Buffalo! If, indeed, you mean Cape Buffalo, then the 338 Win mag is not legal! .366 cal is minimum in most counteries in Africa, and .375 in some others!

If, however, you are speaking about North American hunting, the 338 will do for anything you are likely to come in contact with. Your choice of scope is not a good one, IMO, for either country, or for the 338 Win Mag unless you are shooting praire dogs with it! A far better scope would be a 1.5-5X20 Luepold Veri-X II , or III, with a 3-9X40 as a max, for this caliber, and game! The bison is not really hard to kill with proper bullet placement, when useing a good controled expansion bullet, of 175 grs, the 7mm Mag will do the trick, though the 338 would be far better. However, if your friend has any expactation of traveling to Africa later, I think the smart move would be to get a good CRF 375 H&H,or 416 Rem Mag, and use the same scope you would on the 338!

I hunt everything in Alaska with a 375 H&H, and it has always served well! When I leave for Africa, the old 375 H&H follows along with a dangerous game rifle, usually a double rifle of at least 450/400NE 3"!

Get a 375H&H, you can't go wrong with that choice

My CZ 550 has two Leupolds in Warne QR, one 1-4x20 and one 3-9x40. A 2-7x33 would also be a good scope for day-time hunts.

John the greek must need glasses, must have hit the boiler end pipe-meaning hit the butt hole Facts are there buddy ==knock down// are these caged hunts 20ft that shoot and not a one shot kill, what a joker you are P.S. like I said before x bullets are not the only thing in bullets out there. I did not go to college to sell guns and to learn what facts are like you did, ha ha==facts are facts. Sorry you can not face them, and they are about energy stated above with the 300wby and comparing the 338 win ,the more energy with proper bullets kill even in little guns if you can hit the mark.

[ 08-24-2003, 07:44: Message edited by: 4bambam ]

Thanks for the input. Yes I am talking about the North American bison, north west Montana. The scope choice is more towards his elk hunting with longer shots the norm. We have talked about him having/ getting more range time so I think he will have the practice needed for the bison hunt.
Still leanig towards the 338 WM but hadn't thought of the 375 H&H yet..... Thanks again, Jim the Plumber

4bam,

Caged eh? I'll give this to you simply so you can understand . . . Yukon Territory, Nisling River Watershed area .. . 4 days to get in and 4 days to pack him out. Those fencelines must be DAAAMN long up there 'cause I never saw no "cage". Come back to critique my posts when you can put together a complete sentence.

Jim,

Where are there "open range" bison in NW Montana?

Best,

JohnTheGreek

John, beautiful country up where you were. Glad you enjoyed your time up here.

Regards

Folks, the subject is "bison." Also, some of you may be aware that Alaska has the largest and meanest beasts in the USA, including bison. Bison are not hard to put down with proper shot placement, and shots are usually taken within 200 yards. The .338WM is perhaps the most popular cartridge in Alaska, as well as the .30-06, and the .300WM. With a well constructed bullet from 250 grains all the way to 300 grains, the .338WM is plenty powerful.

About the 7mm Magnum: It shoots fast and flat, but in Alaska it is not nearly as popular as the three cartridges listed above. For the large Alaska game (moose, bear, bison, elk, musk ox, etc.), hunters prefer a wider and deeper wound channel. You won't see many hunters grabbing a 7mm Magnum while hunting moose in bear country, but I see "just" one every now and then (one of my hunting partners).

But...you guys from the Lower-48 don't have to listen to what Alaskans have to say about the guns we use

Stainless guide gun in 45-70 using corbon ammo or good handloads.

40

40Mile, I've been looking at the Guide Gun for awhile now, how is the recoil, balance, handling characteristics?

I agree with the majority. Excellent caliber choice, awfull scope choice. A 3X9 is more than enough magnification for a 338 WM. A 2X7 is even more appropriate. Elk are a large target and shooting them at range should be done with great disgression and ethical limits.

[ 08-24-2003, 20:51: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Savage,

It was gorgeous up there . . . land of Jack O'Connor and all that. I am trying to get up to the NWT and hunt the Mackenzie Bison Refuge herd in Febraury of 2004 if I can swing the finances. If I can't, I might just head up for some time in Whitehorse and see if I can get we a wolf up north of Haines Junction.

Ray,

Spot on! Since the VAST majority of bison down here are taken on fenced ranches, there is no reason to worry about losing the animal or, for that matter, being run down and gored as you can always hop back in the truck if the beast gets cheeky. Now, the Henry Mountain hunt in Utah is one of the exceptions but I still see no reason to risk the beast making his way from the point where he is shot into a ravine or canyon that might make recovery a royal pain. Long live the 30-06 and .338!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

[ 08-25-2003, 00:15: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

May be this time you can get closer than 20-30 ft for a one shot kill and take the -06 this time, so you do not have to blow the poor buff to pieces to knock it over with the 3rd shot. Suggestion, try a shot behind the ear 2in., they drop ass first, pretty fast, O.K. JOHN-G

4bambam, do us all a favour and leave the flaming to the political forum, I'll be more than happy to accomodate you over there. Over here anyone should be able to make comments or opinions without being ridiculed.

Heres a link to a story of a bison hunt that took place at Raymond ranch here in AZ. The hunter was using a 30-378. It was a cull huntor hunter pool hunt.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/3338.html

I was up there a few months ago with my then girlfriend chasing those buff around and we puched them up a ravine never seeing them but seeing lots of fresh tracks and manure. I knew they were up ahead of us and also knew we were approaching the fence line as it crossed the ravine. We kept watching the hillsides for them to come up and they never did. About two and a half hours after entering the ravine, we got to the fenceline and found a pair of 3.5" diameter fence posts bent in half and the buffalo tracks continuing up the sandy wash. Never did see them but boy those things had no trouble getting off that ranch I can tell you that.

4bam. I had no intention of going for the rather risky behind the ear shot on a rare species that I had come a couple thousand miles to hunt when a quick pair of bullets into the heart/lung area would put him down for sure. Following that with a spine shot to knock him over before he reached thick cover worked out perfectly.

That shot behind the ear is like a brain-shot on elephant, very elegant if it works but there are a lot of elephants walking around Africa with bullets in their noggins that missed the brains and their hunters are about $20K lighter in the wallet for the experience.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Back to the original subject of the tread, Your friend needs practice more than a bigger gun. One box a year at most?, how is he supposed to learn to shoot a 338 if he can't take the time to practice with the 7mm? I'd seriously suggest 200 rounds of Walmart ammo first, then a couple of boxes of premium ammo with good 175 grain bullets as the best and cheapest solution for him.

You say once -a-year- novice ??

I think he should just stick with the 7 mag and buy some 175 gr premium loads .

I believe you will find a good 175 gr out of the 7mm will penetrate right along with any expanding bullet out of the bigger guns . Penetration and shot placement are going to be the name of the game here , and I think the guy is more likely to shoot well with a 7mm he is familiar with than some new big booomer is is scared of.........

[ 08-25-2003, 21:13: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

4bambam,

I think your gonna need help getting that foot out of your mouth!
The area that John shot his Bison in is a pretty tuff hunt. 30-40 below weather. ALOT of climbing in deep snow. Hunts like his seperate the men from the boys. A herd of Bison could go in any direction for 500 miles and not have an obsticle like a fence or even be seen by man.

I have shot sevel bison with a .338 and it did the job nicely. I also agree with the other posters about scopes. A 2.5X8 is ideal.

Daryl

Yukoner,

Checked out the web-site from this year's Elijah Smith Trip! Looks like you guys had a heck of a good time and got the snow you needed. If I make it to whitehorse this year, I'll drop you a line.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

The 7MM Mag will do the job with proper bulet and bullet placement. My favorite Elk cartridge is the 300 Winchester magnum. Since Bison have that special outline I would be certain I know where to hold when taking that shot. Bison are not duck soup and anything can happen. Get as close as possible to your game animal and I would use a round nose bullet to impart the maximum amount of hydrostatic shock to the animal your bullet of choice has to offer. The 165 grain PSP bullet is agood choice for Elk. The 300 mag drives the 165 grain bullet at good velocity and gives good down range ballistics to do the job.

Ahem....isn't anybody gonna recommend Match Kings? ...or a 45-70 with cast bullets, off hand at 500 yards? Somebody is falling down on the job here...

[ 08-25-2003, 23:55: Message edited by: Tumbleweed ]

John,
definately give me a call. Tim and Jen have my number or e-mail me.

Daryl