Thanks Holmes!
Do you have any pictures of your watch snakes?

Excellent Holmes, Thanks.

Holmes good points and like i said in my post time fuzzies the memory some,the only photo i have of the snake no longer is clear,but the markings still say 14'6",are Kings in Vietnam? I don't know.So if what you say and I understand,the normal type snake boots sold here in the U.S. should take care of the american pit's?

And like MM,asked what is the method now taught for snake bite,the only one I remember and will not do is the old 1950's boy scout cut and suck.

Holmes foregot to say i had the pleasure of seeing a Bushmaster,and a Fer de lance in South america while there doing training,the Brazilian army had a couple in a large glass inclosure,they were realy quite beautifull as faras markings and color goes,I don't remember which one but when they were milking it translator said the fangs were two inches long,is possible?

[ 10-09-2002, 22:54: Message edited by: Dave James ]

amosgreg, My images are all on chrome film for publication and projection.

My digital camera is of low quality, however, a friend of mine just purchased a new camera that is quite nice. I'll get him to snap a few shots and we'll get them posted for you.

I just received a pair of baby cape cobras and they are exceptionally comical little shits. Pictures are definitely in order!

I will also try to capture an image of a Gaboon ingesting an adult black tail prairie dog. Most impressive.

metalic matt, The procedure is simple but one really needs to have a basic understanding of the various venoms and their actions. I will put together a first aid synopsis over the next few days and post it as a new thread.

Dave James, The King does indeed inhabit the land of huts and tunnels. It is the only cobra that could come anywhere near the length you observed. You may also have heard the LIPs refer to this incredible serpent as the Hamadryad.

The King really breaks many of the traditional reptile "rules" with it proclivity for seasonal monogamy and intricate nest building. While my personal experience with this particular species is limited, I have seasoned colleagues who insist the King cobra is noticeably more intelligent than most other serpent species.

The bushmaster is a very interesting viper that also breaks a few scientific rules, that is, it is one of the few vipers that lays eggs. The dentition is most impressive, however, the two inch claim is probably a bit out of reach. The Gaboon adder of Africa is most frequently given the title of the longest fangs and even it would only hold true in the most exceptionally large specimens. An adult bushmaster should have no trouble achieving a 1.5" fang length which is still most impressive. My 5.25' Gaboon has fangs of such a length and they are something to behold.

A good pair of snake boots should protect one against all but the largest of North American vipers. Even a six foot western diamondback would have trouble getting through them. If it did, the delivery would be greatly impeded thus the severity of the bite dramatically reduced.

Bear in mind that pit viper dentition is very delicate. It is designed to pierce thin skinned endotherms such as rodents, rabbits, etc. They are not very effective against even insulated hunting boots so often worn by the sportsman.

The tree huggers that run around in designer sportswear exposing as much of their body as is politically correct are the ones truly at risk. Their lack of experience and understanding of the wild kingdom also places them in greater danger.

Of course, that is what we refer to as "cleansing the gene pool..."

Regards, gentlemen.

~Holmes

Thanks Holmes!
I don't know if you saw the pictures I have of the Python but you might enjoy them.

http://amosgreg.home.netcom.com/GregHunt2.htm

Thanks Holmes,I thought that the 2" remark might be off,but I have learned not to argue with people holding snakes,I knew a collector here in VA that had a legally aquired King,he also had the rattlers and such,but it was very erie,that when every you walked into the secured room the King was the one who set up and followed his every move.Looking into those eyes I remarked one day was like looking into the pits of hell,it will make your skin crawl,The Yards as most called them had a very heathy respected for ther snakes,the only one I didn't see while I was taking vactaion , was the one stepper,I was told it was green and loved the trees and bamboo,thats the first country that I have ever been in that the farther north you went the more deadly the snakes got,not to mention the bugs Looking foreward to your report on how to handle snake bite,been bit twice now,and the Doc has said with the health conditions it would be a good idea to avoid that again

Mr. (Dr.? -- you didn't say "what" degree you hold) Holmes:

Clearly, you provided much more information than I felt comfortable reading -- though read it I did. Fear is born of ignorance and knowledge is power -- still, I just did NOT enjoy reading some of those little tidbits of yours. (Is there a "shudder" icon on this website???)

I'm glad the grown kid didn't die ("boot" story)... and/or that the incident never happened.

You stated that snakes aren't a good reason to avoid hunting -- but, um, I don't know. After reading the "blind" post, above, and some of the other tales ("tails?" -- humor, ar, ar), I'm just not having a warm fuzzy about doing a safari on the Dark Continent like I was before I read through this thread. Alaska is looking a lot better. Yeah, one brown bear is about the price of a multiple-animal plains game hunt in Africa... but I sure don't read a whole Hell of a lot about snake attacks/deaths in Alaska. Given a choice of facing a brown bear or some slithery creature (I knew what herpetology was before you posted your credentials, just so you know), I'll take the brown bear. I'm sure it's a "psychology thing" (which, by the way, is MY degree... psychology), but I just feel more comfortable being slashed to death by a bear than I do being bitten/poisoned by a snake.

I don't have grant money available, but I'm pretty sure the whole "snake fear" situation is some deeply-rooted, prehistoric-man leftover -- like the pronghorn, which runs like it does to evade a no-longer-existent North American cheetah. There is a really excellent book, "American Pronghorn: Social Adaptations and the Ghosts of Predators Past," by University-of-Idaho biologist John Byers, that looks at these kind of "ghostly" relationships.

Anyway... interesting post. Somewhat unnerving, but interesting.

Russ

Dave, thanks for the "krait" explanation.

If I have nightmares about snakes tonight, it's you guys' fault!

Russ

Down here on the Texas coast our deer lease is 2500+ acres of Trinity river bottom land.
We tend to dance with more Cottonmouths than we would like to. Last week alone
7 were shot . Anyone who has had the 'pleasure' of 'dancing' an angry Cottonmouth,
knows just how fast you can move. By the way I have never seen a Cottonmouth with
a good disposition. About 15 years ago I was looking at some tracks on the edge of a
small bayou. For some stupid, and I mean STUPID, reason I was walking backward looking
down. I stopped when I heard a small rustling sound behind me. When I turned to look,
I saw about a 3 foot Cottonmouth lying about 6 inches from legs. The sound was coming from
the very tip of his tail, which was vibrating on some dry leaves. I believe that I could have jumped over a 10 foot fence!!!!!!!!! I don,t think a human has ever moved that fast before
or since. Needless to say after killing that snake with my little .380(which took me 2 clips,because the first clip never cut a hair) I had to throw those pants I was wearing
away, if you know what I mean. Don,t you just love the little B@#$%*&s.

Russel,just saw Dr.Phil on the TV,just remember you have the switch to turn off your fear,You just haven't done so yet .

I would like to show Doc Phil some of the short neckers here in VA.and see if his switch works

Holmes, I can certainly understand why your home has been exempt from burglary! If I am close enough to see if they are poisonous or not Im too damn close. It isnt that Im afraid or anything. Yeah right! Phobic is probably a better word! I really have to respect you for your chosen occupation. At the same time I have to wonder, you do this on purpose?

[ 10-11-2002, 08:18: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]

Next week I will scan and post pictures of my mangrove snake.
Holmes, I know that this animal which I consider - for the moment - my upper limit regarding snake aggression potential in captivity (I am just a tarantula keeper after all) is only mule poo-poo for you, but I am sure you Russ will love her .

OK, you guys, so, why are we afraid of snakes? Is it somehow inate? Is it learned? I would be interested in the psychology of this phenomenon. Don't many animals also have this "instinctive" fear of snakes (eg. dogs)?
Peter.

Rats and mice for sure have instinctive fear of snakes . But as far as humans are concerned - Holmes please correct me if I am wrong - I think the phenomenon is cultural/educational.
I have witnessed too many times that the vast majority of adults is reluctant to step in my 'bug room', while ALL young children won't show any fear and are particularly interested. There is in my family a lovely little girl who was at the beginning terrorized in front of a tarantula or snake because her mother taught her that all spiders and snakes are bad. I just took the time to teach her a different way : some of them are dangerous - not BAD - and if you don't know, you should leave them in peace : she is not afraid anymore. And she loves to handle spiders and snakes when she knows there is no risk at all with the species involved . When in doubt she doesn't touch, that's all.
Be aware of the risk, but fear doesn't help anything : you panic, you get bitten (I know).

just my $0.02

Amosgreg, thanks for the "burgled" post reference. I understand now.

King Baboon... I actually like tarantulas. Always have. I stomp the shit out of every OTHER spider, though!

Russ

Interesting snake stories all. I just got back from a hunt in Wyoming where I ran across the usual rattler or two. Actually this time three. I followed my usual practice of not bothering them if they are not bothering me. It is really far less fuss to just walk around them and continue on the way than to stop and blast them. I will kill a poisonous snake if found around a house, barn, or camp.

I must comment on what have previously been told about the Black Mamba. "there was this guy who used to take care of snakes in captive on a daily basis, feeding them,,etc. One day this guy was unaware when opening the cage in which two black mambas held room together. The old man didn't noticed anything when doing his duty, but he sensed something had happened, as he turned to go outside.He thought about this strange happening,and was this old man suffering from demens or something,,no,,he looked at his forearm for security reasons,,and yes,,he could confirm that the blood dripping from two very small holes,,was that he had been a victim for the lightening fast mambas living in the cage,,,from there,,his view became very foggy,,while he suffocated. Fortunately,,people found him at a critical moment,,and where able to give him the serum,to prevent his doom !!
I would certainly not be the one to overtake his position as a snake-keeper.The point is that the mamba can hit you ,and you don't notice until the venom starts it's lethal process.
How lethal is the Mamba compared to the Austrailian coastal taipan,,from 1 to 10 ?

Per577,

There are a couple factors that determine how lethal the bite is.

One is how toxic the venom is. On this scale the Coastal Taipan is 3 and I think the Black Mamba is around 15. Number 1 is the Inland Taipan and 2 is the Australian Eastern Brown snake.

The second issue is how effective the snake is at injecting venom and also how pre disposed the snake is to injecting venom when it bites. Although the Australian Eastern Brown snake has venom that is more toxic than the Coastal Taipan, it does not have as good a delivery system for injecting the venom. This results in the bite from the Coastal Taipan being far more lethal than the Eastern Brown.

Some snakes, like the Inland Taipan are rare and not found near people, so its bite has not really been tested on humans like the other snakes. In other words, the method for testing how toxic the venom is, may not be 100% accurate when applied to humans. In addition, the desire of the snake to inject venom when it bites in defence as opposed to biting its prey, is not known.

Before anti venom became available, the Coastal Taipan bite was virtually a 100% death rate. I think the Black Mamba would be similar to snakes like the Australian Mainland Tiger snake and perhaps the Eastern Brown, where death from a bite (and no anti venom) would be more than 50%.

From everthing I have been able to find over the years this is how I would group them and assuming no anti venom.

Coastal Taipan. Certain death

Mamba, Mainland Tiger snake, Eastern Brown snake and some cobras and some vipers. Death is likely to occur.

Various rattle snakes. Death is not likely to occur.

Snakes like Australia's Red Bellied Black snake and in fact a large number of venomous snakes that are regarded as dangerous. Death is rare and usually only occurs with children or old people.

Holmes may have a different view but I don't think his view will differ by too much. I mention this in case he does not see your question.

Mike

[ 10-12-2002, 05:47: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Holmes: Thank You for being truthful about some of the many myths about the Snakes that was brought up on the forum. It seems that whenever the word SNAKE is brought up the story about the Fangs in the boot always reappears along with several others .
I to have handled numerous snakes over the years , went to Rattlesnake roundup's caught them ,gave them to Zoo's always kinda thought they were totally misunderstood. I have been a State Game Warden for over 35 years and living in Texas I have seen too many snakes and heard a lot of Story's from hunters about close calls .
I have heard a lot about how big Rattlesnake are and have seen a few that I would term as big . I can say though that I have only seen 2 Rattlesnakes that were over 6 Ft. both were alive and I handed them over to our Dept for exhibit purposes . I have seen a lot that were close but the one's that are over are few and far between.
But I have a friend that emailed me a pic. of one that they said was close to 7 1/2 feet long . The snake came from just west of Three Rivers Texas , and was killed but some men training their bird dogs. It seemed that the area was flooded (by a Tropical Depression about 35-40 inches of rain in just a couple of days) and the water was going down when they found this snake . I am going to try to post the email pic. of this snake . I am also going to post my email address if the pic doesn't come through. email me and I will send it to You,.ret3109@airmail.net. I knew the Eastern Diamondback grew this large on occusion but I truly never thought the western Diamondback would reach this length.
Navarro.

In Larry McMurtry's novel Lonesome Dove, which I'm reading for the first time just now, one of the cowhands receives multiple cottonmouth bites. On the cattle drive the cowhands and their horses and cattle are fording a river a day after a big rainstorm, and this particular cowhand, Sean, rides his horse into a large nest of cottonmouths in the river. When the others pull him out, they find at least eight bites on his body. He dies almost immediately and is buried there beside an oak tree.

I'm not familiar with cottonmouths. Do they actually exist together in large nests in rivers?

[ 10-12-2002, 22:44: Message edited by: LE270 ]

LE,there seems to be two thoughts on this,I have had wardens here in VA.tell me it doesn't happen,but we did loose a kid sking a couple of years ago in a man made catch area,he showed two or three bites on his legs and no one in the area saw any snakes,I don't know about the rest of the South but here they are extremly aggresive,one warden in GA. told me years ago that it was the one snake that had the ability to close off their throat and strike under water,I realy don't know and don't want to test the theory.
I have seen a ball of them but it was just as it began to warm up and I think they were coming out of a den some where.

OK
Coral snakes, very bad venom. Sea snakes, same, and aggressive.

Eastern Rattlesnakes are one of the most lethal of all snakes. Shocked to find that out.

Australia has a ton of very posionous snakes.

The browns are supposed to inhabit areas with people, all the time, and, there are alot of em.

Best defense? Have your own King Cobra around the house

s

I'd sure get me a Benelli pump action super magnum shotgun cal.12/90,,entering the place in Australia,,where one can expect to have "visitors"anytime even you didn't invite them .And i was thinking of the eastern brown snake,, rated as one of the most lethal snakes in australia besides the Taipan.You forgot to close your door, cause you were tired and during the night one of these "visitors" gets in your bathtub to inspect it or just " sleep over"!
You enter the room and you see it just before your feet,,and 3 yards behind you another one(brown snake)is loacalised. What would you do ,,,pass out,or ???? ( in facto,,i've seeen this on the Discovery chanel,,where this nutcase(professional though)steve guides us through this snake land where the inhabitants actually where invaded of a host of eastern brownsnakes).

I know why I'm afraid of snakes; any thing that moves without wings, fins, or legs is unnatural. When I was looking at that snake, he looked EVIL!

DBKING, I lived in Lousiana when I was a kid and I don't think that there is any such thing as a cottonmouth with a good disposition. Thoes things are in a bad mood when they get up in the morning.

http://www.reptile-gardens.com/reptile/topten.html

You notice, they are all from down under?
Eastern Rattler is deadly...
s

I live in south Louisiana and I work in the marsh areas of the coast quite a bit. Cottonmouths are some of the meanest snakes I have ever seen. I have seen cottonmouths several times in groups of ten or more. Lately, with the storms that we have been having down here(hurricanes), I have noticed more and more snakes. Out squirrel hunting the other day I killed five copperheads and three cottonmouths. I guess that what scares me most about snakes is that no matter how much you pay attention and look for them there is always one that surprises the hell out of you. The storms raised the salinity of the inland fresh water and pushed more snakes to higher ground. It also seems to make them more aggressive than usual. Just my two cents worth.

Thats where our snakes went! Welcome to the forum Bang. See you at the Lake Charles Gun Show sometime.

Here is a BIG rattler that was found during a tropical storm's approach somewhere in Texas..





Rick.

Damn!!!! Whats he doing? Takeing it for a walk

Is it just me or is that the head of a boa or anaconda?

Louisb

Just an uninformed opinion

Rick, I could have gone a lifetime without seeing that picture.

So much for hunting in Texas.

Man, the things you see when you don't have a gun!

THe local rifle range has a species of Tiger snake that does not grow very big but are very aggressive.They usually hang out at the 100 yard targets ,which can make for an amusing site when a shooter changing their target realises they are not alone.

Charlie.

I remember when I was a teenager and living in Australia and all the poisonous snakes they had there. The "two step" was the local name for the taipan, the deadliest land snake. A man working in a cane field was bit by one and recognizing what kind of snake bit him, he bacame the first person who lived through a bite. He used his cane knive and chopped his leg off.

My encounters when I used to bird hunt here and in Montana have mostly been with rattlesnakes. I had an English setter who could telegraph when he ran into one and always gave them a wide berth. I used to shoot them but then realized that they were a far better part of the environment than the mice they ate and thereafter I left them alone. With one exception that happened when walking up a trail on a steep talus slide while chukar hunting. I ran into a sizeable rattler that did not want to move and continued to strike when I got close. I could have done it easier but remembering that they are heat sensitive, I blew on the muzzle of my shotgun and warmed it with my hands. The next time I put it near him he wrapped his head around the end of the barrel and you can guess what happened next.

I am not afraid of snakes, I just REALY dont like them, and they seem not to like me either, but sense the 10ga is on my side they loose the fight (most of the time)

Hey there Holmes---nice letter mate but when it comes to poisonous snakes forget the rest us Aussies have the best and baddest biting death lizards of them all---in fact i`m sure we hold the top ten for bad snakes poison wise and just about anyone here thats grown up or hunted heaps can tell you about near misses and hits from snakes---like for example our Taipan known to grow to 14 feet and a real aggressive snake that once stirred up will come at you with a speed that will shock you---these snakes hit with so much force that they will leave bruises on your body much like a hammer hit will and thats not counting the juice he will inject into your body while doing so---oh well its a bit ho hum to us though i have been know to "cak" my pants at times of sudden encounters---by the way the Taipan (tye-pan) only rates at about no. 3 on the bad list of venom producers here in Australia.

gryphon,
I thought the typan was No.1. Which are ahead of it. Don't want to tangle with them.

Chic,

The Coastal Taipan is usually at 3 or 4 for the mice test. This test is basically how much venom is required so that 50% of the mice die. It is called LD 50.

Number 1 is the Inland Taipan, but I don't it has bitten anyone because of where it is found, so the effects of its venom on people are an "unknown" Also, it would not be known whether it is likely to inject venom when biting in defence.

Number 2 is the Eastern Brown snake. However,it does not inject nearly as much venom as the Coastal Taipan. So although the venom is more toxic the bite is not as deadly as the Coastal Taipan's bite.

If we leave the Inland Taipan to one side, then I think the Coastal Taipan might be about the only snake where death from a bite (and no anti venom) is in the "certain" category.

Snakes such as the Eastern Brown, Mainland Tiger Snake and Death Adder have been in the 50% plus area for death, when no anti venom has been used. I think snakes such as the Black Mamba would also be in this category. That is death is likely as it is more than 50%.

There is however another side of the coin. The vipers and pit vipers (your rattle snakes) have venom that does an enormous amout of damage to the flesh and this can result in amputation. So if you were bitten by a rattler your chances of dying would be less than for the Mainland Tiger Snake or Eastern Brown, but if you survived then you might be far worse off with the rattler bite.

Mike

[ 10-17-2002, 07:35: Message edited by: Mike375 ]