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Kudu:
I've got a question on this one:


"Quite a few members of the audience sported large, cardboard lapel pins featuring a grizzly bear behind a picket fence, with the caption, "No griz in my backyard"

Now, I'm out of the loop on this one but.... I don't understand the concerns on this. Here in Alaska, we just assume there will be bears when we head out into the bush. It's accepted & we deal with it. They aren't found behind every tree. You always keep your eyes & ears open & maintain your guard. Not looking for flames, just an honest answer. Remember, bears hibernate and so are out of "action" for much of the year. I will admit they are creatures of opportunity and would take a new born moose/caribou calf if the opportunity arose. However they primarily feed on carrion, berries, and small animals. A grizzly will seemingly dig forever under a large boulder to get at a marmot, for example. Again, I have a bit of a problem understanding the concern about the bears that is referred to.

Also regarding grizzly predation on sheep. The grizzlie's normal habitat is alpine or sub-alpine. He seldom invades the sheep ranges. I will grant that he could be present in the lower elevations populated by ewes & spring lambs. In fact I've seen them at those elevations myself but I really question their impact on sheep populations.
Now as to the wolf problem........
Later, Bear in Fairbanks

TO answer your question Bear, folks here in Wy are a bunch of pussies when it comes to being in the woods...and the thought of a large toothy critter out there (griz bear) scares them to death. You're right about one thing, folks seem to think that there is a griz behind every bush, and that they are just waiting to kill, maim, rob, rape, etc. Most of the people who have this misconception are ones who are naive and unexperience in griz country. These are also the same folks who are too lazy to want to keep a clean camp, store food properly, or take the precautions while hunting in bear country.
Nobody can accept the fact that grizz bears are here to stay, and personally, I feel that is what makes certain parts of Wyoming still "wild".
If you don't like it, there are plenty of other places to hunt.

MG

As usual the libs never see culling as a viable option when something like the Mtn Lion in California - or Wolves all over the western states now more recently - become overpopulated.

Any wolf I see gets shot. They are NOT endangered folks, get over it...

Well all you "greenies" and rmef types can now relay to me YOU WERE RIGHT!

Yeah I told you so!

Having said that, I take no glee what so ever in relaying that the Montana Fish and Game folks decided yesterday to make even more drastic cuts in the traditional Gardiner late Elk Hunt - due to predation by over populated Wolves!

The Hunt that in the year 2,000 gave out 2,800 tags is now officially cut down to (re-cut again!) to 148 tags!

You greenies and bambi feel good types and rmef idiots have helped lose a wonderful Hunting opportunity for 2,652 Hunters each year (so far)!

And the even worse news is the Hunt will probably be cut out completely in the near future - due to overpredation by wayne (the "brain") carleton's (and the rmef's!) little buddies (and the darlings of the Berkeley crowd!) the Wolves!

Yeah those Wolves are bringing in a lot of jobs and revenue for hard hit Montana alright! Next to nothing!

Please go this link and read for yourselves what is in store for Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Oregon and Washington! Fat Wolves - diminished Elk Hunting!

Now keep this in mind while reading the article from todays Bozeman Chronicle the Elk herds in much of Montana have yet to be seriously affected by Wolves to date! In fact record numbers of Elk were counted this year in much of SW Montana. And in every recent year going back through the last 6 mild winters! The Wolves do take Elk in much of the rest of SW Montana but not as yet to the extent this Gardiner Hunt has been ruined! The Gardiner Hunt should still be offering close to 3,000 Elk permits but thanks to wayne carletons little buddies in the year 2,005 only 148 permits will be given out. Notice the timing of this press release (busy Christmas season, Big Game season just over, people are preoccupied with other things this time of years etc!). Take special notice of the Elk census numbers the year the Wolves were introduced and the Elk numbers in this area today!

I will attempt to link to the article here: http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2004/12/17/news/02latehunt.txt

Heaven help our hard fought for and valuable (treasured!) Elk herds!

Thanks for NOTHING rmef!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

Now VarmintGuy you KNOW that is BS!!

The head of the wolf recovery team (Ed Bangs I think) is telling us here in Wyoming in our papers and radio that research is showing the decline is because of grizzlys!

Yeah, RIGHT! as if there weren't grizzlys there before they introduced wolves!

Elkslayer: I just hope the opportunities to Hunt and observe the Elk in the beautiful and wonderful state of Wyoming never go away!
I fear that may not be the case though!
Keep an eye on things over your way because yes, those cretins in the federal bureaucracies WILL lie to the public (i,e.: the federal employees caught lying and tampering with evidence in the recent Lynx situation out west and the National Marine Fisheries liars who helped destroy the wild run of Steelhead on the Cedar River [near Puget Sound and Seattle in Washington State] etc etc etc)!
I trust the new generation of federal bureaucrats about as far as I can throw them!
I love Wyoming!
I love Montana!
I love Elk!
I want the Wolves controlled!
Thanks for NOTHING rmef!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

We can shoot wolves?

Now I actually read your article.



Not so bad except for the Gardiner elk hunt.

Quote:

---

The commission also approved Montana's statewide elk plan, which focuses on ways for people to harvest more elk, if necessary. Unlike the area just north of the park, most elk hunting districts in the state contain more elk than guidelines call for , leading to landowner complaints.



It's possible that some districts could be limited to antlerless elk only, in efforts to reduce populations.



Alt said he is not concerned about wolves causing similar big drops in elk numbers in other parts of the state.

---

So the wolves are eating everything in sight, eh?
Listening to you it sounds like in ten years all of North America will be without game thanks to wolves.

Couldn't possibly be due to overhunting or natural elk population flucuations (overbrowsing) that is causing less elk.

We have the whole wolf debate up here too.

I hope the wolf is delisted and hunted in the lower 48 but not eradicated.


----------------------
Eat elk,

200 yellowstone wolves can't be wrong.

------------------------------
A poacher is a poacher is a poacher:

http://westerngraywolf.fws.gov/pressrelease_08042004.htm

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for AK eat moose 10000 wolves can't be wrong

I saw a documentary reguarding the big predators in the yellowstone area a few weeks ago that was mainly focused on grizz, it was pretty interesting as it gave the ranchers, rangers and the greenies sides of the story.



Apparently there is current legislation that is to be decided in 2005 reguarding the de-listing of Grizzlys from the endangered species list. The numbers are there, they are ripe to be removed and the greenies dont like it at all. This is something that needs to be done in a bad way.



It showed a small elementary school in rural wyo that was fenced in to protect the children from grizzlies. Third generation ranchers who have been there for close to 100 years were driven from their lands due to killed cattle.



One part of the show showed footage of a pack of wolves fighting a grizzly over a bison carcass. The wolves won. Those things are notoriously mean and they should have never been brought back to Yellowstone. It was a bad idea. They have been captured last summer killing sheep only about 50 miles from Salt lake Utah. Theyve spread like wildfire and our Alaskan friends know how hard they are to get rid of.



We need to see this de-listing through for both Grizz and Wolves.

I will state Wyoming's perspective on this only once since I am so far the lone Wyo person responding to this thread and I will not debate it because the point has been made here on AR and other forums but some people refuse to see the our side of the coin.

1st...

THE FEDS TOLD US THEY ONLY WANTED TO HAVE WOLVES IN Y-STONE AND THE Y-STONE ECOSYSTEM. Not the whole damn state! Well, the wolves ARE in Y-stone and the Y-stone ecosystem.

2nd...

We are holding the Feds to what they told us they were going to do or what they proposed to do.

3rd...

From the Wyo perspective, our good friends in Montana and Idaho basically wrote a plan as the Feds dictated it just to get it approved, and not in the best interest of those who live in their state.

Sorry but we, at this time, will not capitulate! Stubborn, you bet but as I said, we are holding the Feds to what they said they wanted.

Never heard or seen any of that happening around these parts........

Unfortunately, the sad fact of the matter is that right now hunters could shoot every wolf they saw, and it wouldn't make a difference. They'd fill the gap with the next heat cycle...... Dutch.

Anything is possible, but it's a federal offense and you can expect to pay dearly.

Brent

A geenie report.May 19, 2003

In Yellowstone, It's a Carnivore Competition

By Guy Gugliotta
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 19, 2003; Page A07

It was not a fair fight. The wolverine may have been as nasty as any predator in the mountains, but it weighed only 27 pounds. The black bear had arisen from a long winter's sleep and was almost certainly very hungry. The slain elk, carrying as much as 550 pounds of meat, was a prize worth fighting for.

"We don't know how it unfolded, except that the wolverine lost," said wolverine expert Kristine Inman, of the Wildlife Conservation Society. There were a few elk hairs on the ground and signs the bear had carried the elk away. The wolverine carcass was "intact," albeit with a crushed head and bear bites all over its body.

This encounter occurred April 22, an unusual example of predator killing predator in the remote reaches of greater Yellowstone Park, a 40,600-square-mile tract of wilderness spreading like an ink blot across the junction of Wyoming, Montana and Idaho.

But while the wolverine may have chosen a mismatch bordering on madness, scientists say that predators killing one another is probably part of the natural order of things, and greater Yellowstone is offering an unprecedented opportunity to test the theory.

With the reintroduction of the gray wolf in 1995, the park and its suburbs now have a full complement of North America's great carnivores: wolves, grizzly bears, black bears, cougars, coyotes and wolverines. Nowhere else on the continent can boast such variety.

And all the species, with the exception of coyotes, are prospering, either protected under the Endangered Species Act or by hunting or trapping restrictions. The Northern Rockies coyote population, which had the run of the park after wolves were exterminated in the 1930s, has been halved to 225 animals since the wolves returned.

"Things are starting to sort themselves out," said coyote specialist Robert Crabtree, of the Yellowstone Ecological Research Center. "When there are wolves and coyotes, there are always going to be kills of coyotes."

And evidence is growing that other species are fighting and dying as well. When meat-eaters have plenty to eat -- and there are about 14,000 elk in greater Yellowstone, the densest population on the continent -- they spend considerable time pushing one another around like bullies on a playground.

"It's a toothy world out there," said the U.S. Geological Survey's Chuck Schwartz, leader of greater Yellowstone's Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team. "It is probably very normal in a multi-predator, multi-prey system for predators to compete for a carcass. It's all about numbers and size."

The male grizzly, 7 feet tall and weighing close to 1,000 pounds, "is the king of beasts, but they're slow," said Douglas Smith, who leads the National Park Service's Yellowstone Wolf Project. Next in the pecking order, albeit with some disagreement, come the wolves, the only predators who work in a team, followed by black bears, cougars, coyotes and smaller carnivores such as the wolverine.

The bears and the wolves can comfortably bring down an adult male elk. The cougar is a solitary hunter and prefers elk calves, but it can kill adults as well. Coyotes and smaller animals either have to scavenge other animals' elk kills or settle for mouthful-sized voles, squirrels, mice and other rodents.

An elk is a temptation that wolverines, and especially coyotes, can't resist: "If you can survive long enough to cash in on a big food source like an elk, you can eat well, produce pups and pass on your genes," Crabtree said. "But you have to avoid the wolves. If you don't, you die."

In the wolverine's case, the competitor was a black bear. Inman said it was not clear whether the bear or the wolverine killed the elk -- wolverines have been known to pull it off -- or whether the elk had simply thawed out after freezing to death or dying of starvation during the winter. However it happened, the pecking order prevailed.

No matter which carnivore kills the elk, researchers agree that greater Yellowstone is a ruthless place where losers often pay the ultimate price. Last month, 14 wolves caught a female cougar out in the open skulking around one of their kills. The wolves killed the cougar, then found her kittens and killed them. The dead female had wolf hair in her teeth and claws.

"The wolves will wade into a situation and check it out, and if it goes well, they'll keep going," Smith said. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it does not. Smith saw a male grizzly drive a pack of wolves away from an elk carcass, then make a "king of the hill" defense as the wolves darted in and out, trying, but failing, to wear him out.

But wolves do not always win. Males, at 125 pounds, can go after a 110-pound female cougar if they are in a pack, but a lone wolf is a bagatelle for a 160-pound male cougar. Smith has recorded two instances of cougars ambushing and killing single wolves -- one an adult, the other a pup.

"A lion has two sets of lethal weapons -- teeth and claws, whereas wolves' principal weapon is just teeth," said National Park Service cougar specialist Kerry Murphy. Cougars can dominate as long as they stay in the rocks or in the forest, where they can climb a tree. "We're still talking about dogs and cats," he said.

The wolves have had remarkable success since their return to Yellowstone, growing from an initial infusion of 37 animals to 273 today, in 31 separate packs. Still, Smith acknowledges, a female grizzly "is the single most dangerous animal in the mountains."

This is because bears, like some of the other predators, have more to fear from their own kind than they do from neighbors. Male bears will kill and eat a female's newborn cubs, perhaps to accelerate the female's breeding cycle. Male cougars will also kill a female's cubs and will take on another male if it tries to usurp its breeding rights.

Among wolves, killing one another is "part of the natural order of things," Smith said. "Wolves are ferociously territorial," he added, and are constantly fighting turf wars. Since the wolves returned to greater Yellowstone, there have been at least 30 pack conflicts, with 15 wolves killed, he said.

Crabtree suggested that these battles are one reason wolves sometimes let coyotes approach their kills, then chase them down, even though they represent no danger: "Maybe you want to teach your pups tricks of the trade," he said. "Maybe wolves are killing coyotes to practice for conflicts with other wolves later in life."

Well, here's a neat thought. Maybe in the future our wolf states will offer a combo tag. Say, for every elk tag you can buy 2 wolf tags for $1.00 each. So long as you donate the wolf meat to RMEF and the Feds.

What do ya think?

First Wyoming does have and has submitted its wolf recovery plan. The state, some hunters,and livestock producers stand by it. Presently there is a lawsuit in progress, state of Wyoming, livestock producers, county commisioners of a few counties, and a group of hunters have jointly filed suit in court. law suit is the only thing a greenie understands, including the F&W service. Our game and fish has even started going green and it won't be long and the red shirts of the Wy G&F will be green. Wyoming feels if the wolf leaves Jellystone they are fair game with the exception of poison.

As for the RMEF, they are pro wolf, they have stated publicly they feel wolves are good for the enviroment and the elk. I have sent letters to them and they stand by the revovery of wolves even though it contradicts the RMEF mission statement printed in every Bugle magazine. Yes they have done lots of good for elk but they are now condoning an illegal program that is and will harm elk populations.

The canadian grey wolf was not native to Wyoming and it can be proven with DNA. Wyoming law cleary states no non-native wildlife can be introduced into the state.

You can argue all you want, bitch and moan. Bottom line, more wolves and bears mean less game. You can have lots of preditors or lots of game but not lots of both!

It is a crying shame that every hunter can't send $5 to the state of wy in support and defense of the lawsuit. Can you imagine, over 300,000 people apply annually in wy for permits.

I also think the suit should be directed straight at Ed Bangs as he is calling the shots.

Oh and there is a confirmed pack in the Big Horns and sightings in the southern part of the state. Next on the feds hit list, Colorado, Rocky Mtn Park. Trust me they are real close. I expect grizzlys to soon be in the Big Horns if not already. The Wy G&F wants to expand the recovery area to almost the middle of the Big Horn Basin wich would cause some big changes. At all the G&F public hearings there was record turn outs against expanding the grizzly reovery area but they will do as they please.

From the archives of the casper Red star tribune:

LANDER, Wyo. (AP) -- The Fremont County Commission unanimously approved a resolution Tuesday that declares grizzly bears are unacceptable in the county.

The resolution comes just after the state Game and Fish Department concluded public meetings on its plan to manage grizzly bears once federal protections are removed. Under the plan, the bears would be allowed to roam outside their primary conservation area to other areas, including inside Fremont County.

The commission's resolution said the presence of grizzly bears would run counter to the county's land use plan

RIVERTON -- More than 300 people crowded into the conference facility of the Riverton Holiday Inn Tuesday night, most to protest the grizzly bear occupancy management plan presented by officials of the Wyoming Game and Fish Department.

The informational meeting, followed by a rancorous question-and-answer session that lasted until 11 p.m., was supposed to explain how the grizzly bear would be managed in Wyoming being removed from federal protection.

Quite a few members of the audience sported large, cardboard lapel pins featuring a grizzly bear behind a picket fence, with the caption, "No griz in my backyard."

Conservationists were in a distinct minority. Several said they felt intimidated by the angry crowd and left early.

The Game and Fish Department's plan does not provide for grizzly bears in the southern Wind River Mountains, a concession to local people who say the animals would interfere with human recreation there. But people at Tuesday night's meeting said the plan shouldn't even allow grizzlies outside Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks.

Fremont County Commissioner Doug Thompson said he believes it is foolish to allow the bears to expand into country south of Dubois, into the Wind River Range, when the Dubois area is already rife with bear/human conflicts.

"I'm also worried that the Wind River (Indian) Reservation will essentially act as a corridor for the bears into the rest of the state," Thompson said.

Game and Fish has little information about bear activity on the reservation, and has no authority over wildlife on the reservation.

Nor does Thompson buy Game and Fish assurances that areas outside the core zone for bears will be managed under multiple-use rules.

"If I'm fishing and a bear shows up, the bear wins. That's not multiple use in my mind," Thompson said.

State Rep. Jim Allen, R-Lander, said the informational meetings hosted by Game and Fish "validate our worst fears."

"People don't want to live with bears. Keep 'em in Yellowstone Park. It is that pure and simple," Allen said.

The outgoing legislator said he and many other people are bothered that Game and Fish cannot, or will not, define bear population density levels.

"That's like buying a car, but the dealer can't say what color it is or what mileage it gets, yet insists that things will work out in the future," Allen said. "Game and Fish wants to have as much flexibility as possible and then say, �trust us.'"

Trouble is, Thompson said, there's not much trust left, and people feel like the bear occupancy management plan is "being rammed down our throats."

Allen said he'd like to see the Game and Fish Commission revise the plan, or even have the Legislative Services Office conduct an independent survey of how Wyoming feels about bear management.

Allen said he was bothered by the methodology of a Game and Fish survey, which found that a majority of Wyomingites favor expansion of grizzly bear range.

"Now don't get me wrong, but I don't think there's very many people in the survey who actually work or recreate in the national forests," Allen said.

Ultimately, Allen said, he'd like the issue brought to a public vote.

Thompson said Fremont County residents are frustrated that unelected officials are making big decisions that will harm Fremont County.

Greens speak out

Bob Hoskins, a Dubois-area conservationist, said grizzly bears are simply moving back into habitats and ecosystems they inhabited before their numbers fell dramatically because of humans. He repeated a theme voiced by Game and Fish officials n that grizzly bear food sources are in various degrees of trouble, including whitebark pine, cutthroat trout and army cutworm moths.

The science about bears is clear, Hoskins said: "You need to expand their range to maintain their population."

Meredith Taylor, Yellowstone program coordinator for the Wyoming Outdoor Council, said 24 bears were killed this year, exceeding mortality rate targets for after delisting.

"What's going to happen when the grizzly loses its current protections?" she asked.

She insists that it is possible for hikers, campers, hunters, fishermen and outfitters to coexist with grizzlies in bear country. She and outfitter husband Tory have been doing it for 29 years with simple rules about keeping clean camps and securing food, she said.

"We've never had a bear incident," she said.

People who insist on leaving burned hot dogs in fire pits or pouring bacon grease on the ground are simply asking for a habituated bear to come visit, she said.

"That's bad for bears and bad for people," she said.

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If an unregulated, unrestricted hunting season, I stress hunting and maybe even trapping, opened today, for wolves in Wyoming, The wolf would not be eradicated. It would be some what controlled. Maybe. I just spent 3 weeks hunting elk, bow and rifle concurrently, on foot, in an area documented to have 3 wolf packs in a 10 mile area. I never seen a wolf. I did see a few tracks. It was an area adjacent to where Ed Bangs's clone, Mike Jemenez was caught tresspassing last winter.

I have hunted canada, NWT, BC, Manitoba, and Yukon, all times I had a wolf tag. . Collectivley about 45 days hunting on horse back or foot. I seen one wolf at 400 yds running like a scared pup.

I am all for states managing the wolves how they see fit.

Even shooting them as a varmint won't eradicate all of them in the wilder areas. That is where the wolf belongs in the wilderness.

I just get tired of the B.S. about them eating every game animal in sight.