I've only been a member for a short time and I wonder about everyone talking about long range shooting at game animals.

I've hunted in most of the western states and I have shot more animal under 100 yds, then over. I have hunted with and still use magnum rifles with quality glass, but I would hesitate to take a shot over 300 yds. I've shot competetion at 1000 yds, and the standard National Match courses for over 40 years and I have seen what wind or failure to put the correct dope on the sights can do with bullet placement. Even in the desert I have managed to sneak up to antelope, mid season, and shoot an respectable 15" buck at 43 feet (yeah it was hard even on 3X to see more than hair). I guess it boils down to showing enough compassion for the animal to just throw the "lights out" switch rather than risk wounding the animal. Just a thought.

I am so much on your side of the fence it is almost gay. This is always been a HUGE pet peeve with me.

" I am no hunter, so I will by the latest ultra slayer and just smokem' from the truck"

God, this crap bothers me. I have taken game at my own description of long range on 2 ocasions and surely hope to not repeat it. That said I have 90% of all harvested game has taken place at roughly 80yds. 97% has been under 125 yds. 300 yds is a sound comforting maximum with any modern arm from a .243 on up. Obviuosly matching the cartidge to the specie.
Western and some mountain hunting can call for the need to be prepared for 300yds so practice and knowledge are important. With my clients there is NO shooting over 200yds unless I have experience with you in the field. I have broke this rule only a few times and EVERY time it was a problem.
Last season I had a hunter on a nice "goat" We where at a guessed 410yds and he is getting ready to blast away. I look over at him and ask what the hell is he thinking, at he says something to the effect of it is a "chip shot". I say no f***ing way. We stalk closer (that is the HUNTING part) I laser the goat at 257yds tell him to get ready and I will get it to stand up. He is in his sling, prone, bipod, etc.... I blow on the howler, the goat looks our way, I wave my arms, the goat stands broadside at about 175 degrees facing left. The hunter/shooter takes at least 30seconds then promptly clips the right front leg off at the elbow. 3 hours and 11 shots later we have a nice representative pronghorn for the wall and a few pounds of dog food. His excuse???? Wow that was a long shot. What?????? 400ish was a chip shot ?? and 257 was LONG ???? No wonder I have an ulcer.
If you see any of my posts they always end the same.

Buy a good bolt action .30'06 put a decent 4X scope on it. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Exercise. With the money you saved from not buying 10 rifles all doing the same thing you have it to spend hunting. Pretty simple stuff really.

ED

[ 09-10-2003, 17:50: Message edited by: E O ]

A guy at work once told me he had a 7MM mag that could hit a quarter at 300 yards.....I instantly assumed a level of BS and went about my day.

After the third time of hearing this I offered him a dollar for every time he could hit one if he gave me a dollar for every time he missed one.....

All bets off, we went to the range where he couldn't show me even a 3" group!!!

I've done some 1,000 yard shooting and don't pretend to be the best at it at all.....It's a tough game!!

I don't doubt that there are folks that can hit a 10" circle at 1000 yards with reasonable consistancy or that there are those that can hit a deer at any distance in the area of 1,000 yards. That's some spectacular shooting......but please don't tell me that's hunting.

>>>I am so much on your side of the fence it is almost gay.<<<

EO - i REALLY like that phrase; can i borrow it?

p.s., i agree with both of you. o know of a couple, maybe 4 guys who really do all the homework on the subject, and if they tell me AT A SPECIFIC TIME AND PLACE that they can make it, i will believe them, because i know that if they have any doubts, they will stalk closer. unfortunately, they are the exception rather than the rule.

[ 09-11-2003, 03:21: Message edited by: tasunkawitko ]

I just came from the local range getting a better feel for a fairly new gun. I go to the 100 yd range, pick a spot, plunk down a couple items to let folks know that spot is occupied, place my target and return and who should appear but Johnny Loudenboomer with his tupperware stocked mega-mag and parks his muzzlebreak right next to me.

After developing a flinch from HIS gun going off I decide enough is enough and pull up stakes and head for the 300 yd range. Ahhh! thats better! had the whole thing all to myself whilst the 100 yd range was packed. After a fairly pleasant session there and a couple adjustments I decide to double check their effect on the 100 range again. Same thing happens only worse! This guy had the howitzers little brother!! But the point I havent got to yet is if mega yardage and flat trajectory is so damn important to these guys then why do I never see THEM on the 300 yd range?? I guess when youve got 70+ grains of powder you dont need to practice long shots.

Hack,I couldn't agree with you more!The May/Juneissue of the REMF Bugle contains an excellent article on this subject entitled Getting Close.Todd Tanner,the author describes long shots in the field as a lot like long shots at the gaming table.He further eloquently states"unfortunately,this"farther is better" mentality-without the sense of how extraordinary it is to find someone with the requisite talent-has crept into hunting,where the lives of sentient beings are in our hands.and where the power to kill animals from a great distance causes some hunters to neglect more fundamental skills."
Awell written article that should give us all some food for thought.
Bravo

Oops! sorry guys about the RMEF and REMF error.I must have been recalling some other so called long shots.
Bravo

Hey Guys,
You'all can use the phrase, as it is with all the best 1 liners, I heard this in the wee hours years ago in a diner/truckstop in Iowa while driving to Wyo. @ drunks where discussing politics or breeding pigs, not sure which.

I too LMAO and needy to make a hasty retreat.

ED

Amen, I also target shoot long distances, but do my best to get it below 200m. Alot of people just don't realize the effects of wind whether its sideways, upwards, or downwards. Out west we often shoot across very hilly ground where there are no wind indicators along our bullets path. Somtimes whether its due to cloud cover or many other factors, you can't even see the effects of wind, especially if it is a lightly vegetated area.

Deke.

What exactly is the problem with shooting game past 300 yards?

The problem is that most people that claim they can do it, can't and they unnecessarily wound game.

As a responsible sportsman, you should only take shots at game that you are qualified to take.

I agree with your statements Safari Hunter. Each person must know their own limitations. I do not understand why people try to enforce a given range for shooting game?

Most people are not responsible enough or smart enough to realize their limitations--some people should have a 50yard limit, but they think b/c they have a new ultra mag that their limit is 500yds--those are the people we must be afraid of and stay the he!! away from.

Just because a person is more competent at a longer range than you are comfortable shooting doesnt mean its wrong. The 300 yard limit mentioned above is probably from someone that isnt too familiar with their rifle.

i laid down on the bipod with my 308 one day at 300 yds, clicked up 2MOA and emptied my 5 round full mag (rem 700) at a prarie dog target. they hit POA and measured 2.0 inches--i dont think an elk past 300 would be too difficult.

impose your own limits, not mine--and dont try to define hunting either, that is kind of naive and self centered. when a hunting definition is explained by somebody, we can just as easily say it isnt hunting unless you are dressed in skins chuckin a spear--technology has changed and we are better able to use our cartridges full potential.

If you choose not to use your cartridges potential to your advantage, fine, just dont expect everyone to stay back there with you.

enough rambling for now.

JB

The range I go to has gongs of various sizes set up at 200 and 300 yds. By chance, this particular range happens to be on the windy side - usually swirling between cross and tailwind. Anyway, I've watched (and heard) plenty of guys have great difficulty hitting anything other than the largest gongs (12-14" or so) with any reliability - and it gets even harder during midday when the winds picks up. And this is from a rock solid rest. Hopefully it made them realize that it is not the rifle, but instead the rifleman, that is usually the bottleneck in the accuracy department.

I might the "quarter" challenge with my 6mm BR, but I can't think of very many unmodified factory rifles that would make this a safe bet even in the hands of very skilled shooter.

Personally I don't have the equipment or the skill to humanely kill varmints beyond 750 yards. My best shot to date on a woodchuck (groundhog) is 675 yards using my 22.

I do not have the equipment to cleanly kill deer beyond 700 yards. Yet.

I guess my physical limitations will keep me in the "medium" range category.

Don

I don't have a problem with people shooting targets or p-dogs at long ranges. Targets don't move, and p-dogs die when hit.

Unfortunately, large game can move, leading to an extremely accurate, wounding shot at long range, due to the time it takes to squeeze the trigger and the bullet to get there.

So what the long-range shooters are saying, is that because they can hit a paper target at 1000 yards, they have the ability to "tell the future".

I had no idea that clairvoyance was a developable skill.

I've read with considerable interest the discussion on long range hunting on this and other forums. I would really like to run into a Boyd Heaton on the range. Not because I doubt his abilities, but because I want to be exposed a discipline of shooting with which I am not familiar. First off my range has a max shooting distance of 250 yards for targets and two gongs slightly beyond that. I have heard all kinds of talk about people's shooting abilities, but have never seen anyone shoot as well as he talks. Again, not that I doubt it can be done, its just that my experience tends to plant the seed of disbelief that there are as many top notch shooters out there as there are top notch posters and talkers. At my range I study the targets that are discarded. I rarely see 1 inch groups on the 100 yard targets and have seen MOA at 250 even less. There is some high dollar equipment being used there too. May just be my neck of the woods. Anybody have any idea where I might be able to take in a long range shoot.

I am not one to play God. Each man or woman has to make up their own mind on whether they are comfortable hunting at long range. I have no desire to try to force my set of values on another person I know only by a screen name.

When I was in Kodiak Alaska long range shot possibilities were more numerous and the vegetation sparse enough that I felt comfortable taking a 400 yard shot on blacktails in the mountains. Here in the tangled hells of swampy south MS A powerline or gas pipeline is about the only terrain break that allows a long shot and then only one before the animal disappears into brush so thick you have to crawl through it. Here with a solid rest I might stretch a shot to 300.

I must admit the topics that generate a little heat are a little more fun than those that don't, I prefer to see disagreements aired more amicably than they are sometimes. Oh well, to each his own.

Paul

Personally, if I can go 10 for 10 into the 4" gong at 300 yds in a modest swirling breeze from a good rest using a sporter weight rifle with a standard 2-7x or so scope, I feel like I'm having a pretty good day at the range. Now maybe I have just exposed myself as an incompetant shot, but I can hardly imagine being even close to that consistent during the adrenaline of the hunting moment and in the absence of anything resembling a decent rest.

However, if I could take my super accurate, heavy-barreled, 284 (built on a long action) complete with fancy-pants scope, heavenly trigger, shooting table, sandbags, a good supply of valium, and commit to hunt only on windless days I would feel quite comfortable taking shots twice that long. But alas...

At some point the odds compel me to let the critter go.

Two things, most people can't judge distance very well, and I think a lot of people fall prey to what they have been reading as of late. It seem that if you believe what you read in the mag's today, you just arnt a hunter unless you knock them off at 472yds or so. Personally, I think there is a lot more talk than walk. I tend to be on the hit them as hard as you can and as close as you can when hunting game. Having my personal range out to 500yds measured with a foot meeter, and shooting every day even if it is just 3-4 shots. I still would not take a shot over 300yds at unwounded game. I owe the game this much respect. To kill quickly and with as little suffering as I can with the tools that I am useing. I would ask nothing less if teh roles were switched.

Amen to getting close! My statistics tell my experience with long rifle shots. I've kept a record in my Mac of the 56 deer I've killed...RANGE, terrain, wind, weather etc. I've killed about 48 of the deer shooting from some sort of rest...tree trunk, shooting stick, comfort rest etc. I've killed 54 at less than 125 yrds. (most of these less than 75), one deer at @275 yrds and one at @400 yrds (An A-bolt 30'06 my then favorite gun, dead calm, deer broadside, certain of range). I've also botched a few shots. I keep those statistics too. They're great de-liars. Several at 200 - 250 yrd.s...a couple at less. In my life I have shot at a running deer three times-I got clean kills twice.

I really can hit a 2.5" circle consistantly at 200 yrds from a bench with my 7mm Mag. But it doesn't mean much. 90% of the time I go to the field with my .270 Win. I can always hit a dime at 100 with it at the range. That makes me comfortable from my stand, using a rest to @200 yrds. with steady moderate wind and off hand to @45. I do NOT enjoy following blood trails.

Sei wach!

i'll stay neutral on this subject for now, but will suggest you go over to longrangehunting.com and read and ask questions with an open mind. everyone over there is willing to share info without resorting to namecalling as has happened on other boards.

Also those of you that feel confident of your abilities to hit a dime consistantly at 100yds go on over to benchrest.com home page and look for the centerfire postal match--they send you targets to shoot then you send them back after about 3 weeks to shoot them. you can shoot any time over the 3 week time frame you have them at any location in any condition. So pick a perfect condition and hit that dime every time (the 10 ring is 1/2 inch)

its 10$ to enter and you shoot IBS 100yd score targets. there is a factory class and a bench class--go on over and try it out--it can be a little humbling.

JB

birman -

no disrespect intended, but if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand any explanation.

I never wanted to get involved in this discussion. Mainly because I see it as futile as some other threads that get heated here.

It appears the mains problems are:

Corner Boar

What exactly is the problem with shooting game past 300 yards?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

safarihunter

The problem is that most people that claim they can do it, can't and they unnecessarily wound game.

As a responsible sportsman, you should only take shots at game that you are qualified to take.

I liked these two replies.
So what if one is able to?

I have been lured over to the "dark side" although I have no intentions of making it my primary hunting/shooting method, call it what you will.

I believe I have mastered shooting game and paper out to 300m, most of this I do with a 6PPC, head shooting mainly considering the meak energy capabilities of the cartridge.

I hunt and cull on my own property year round, usually at least once a week I will shoot at a "big" game animal. My attraction to the LR thing was borne out of boredom/curiosity/search to make things harder.

I would like to set up in a spot where I know the range, have practiced the shots at the same location then yes, shoot from a very long ways away when an animal presents itself there.
(not unlikely over my cultivated fields)

This would be a very controlled LR situation and for the moment I don't have great aspirations.

I am waiting on a HS prescision rifle as the starting point for this venture, and I want to master shooting to 500m. If I attain that goal and am still yearning for a longer shot, then it will be back to the drawing board, a new rifle, new loads and more practice.

I don't believe that anyone can condem me for this.

What difference is there in setting up on the edge of a field awaying an animal 300m away or 500 or 1000m?

Still no stalking is involved and if the shooter can competently make the shot no one should attack them for it.

No one bashes people who prefer to just sit and wait for a shooting opportunity to present itself, so all you are doing here is stretching the range.
I rarely sit and wait for game, orefering to wander and stalk but sometimes, sometimes it's nice to try something else.

I agree, no one should try this as a party trick, but if the practice and equipment is there I can find no ill doing.

I'm with Birman on this one. Go POTKB little fella...

The dead horse is taking a beating on this one. Several members have put in the work to know their limitations and that is what decides maximum range based on current conditions. I would rather see a competent, prepared hunter take a shot at 400 yards at an undisturbed animal than an offhand shot at 100 yards when your shaking from buck fever or just out of shape. A wounded and lost animal is still wounded and lost regardless of whether it was clipped at 2000 yards or 10 feet. I have put in enough time shooting to 2500 yards with the .50 BMG rifles to know what can be done by competent marksmen but that same experience has motivated me to hold my fire past 400yards. I would rather brag about my ability to get close versus how far the shot was.

I can see both sides of this fight, while I wont shoot more than 250-300 yds with a dead solid rest, I know others who are good enough and own a gun that will let them make those shots. A buddy of mine (ex army sniper) owns one highly custom rifle, and with it he has taken moose out to 425 yds with one shot. Many would claim that this is showboating or a sign of a poor hunter, but he has hunted and killed many head of game at ranges from 22 ft for a 50+ in moose, to a little over 400 and he puts enough rounds down range a year on the known distance and unknown that I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to let him take a long shot. I think it is more in knowing how good you realy are and admit when you can or can't make the shot. And personaly I dont think its our place to judge those who can make said shots.

Methinks the dead horse has lost another life. "Real Hunters" will grapple with their quarry hand to hand. Mebbe a knife or a spear, but bare teeth to the jugular is pure form. If you can't do that, put aside your illusions about being a hunter, get a long range weapon like a bow or pistol and go fill the meat locker.

Toodle...

Digital--i've used that one before to show that technology and "hunting" methods can change together but it never seems to help

and dammit there may actually be more than one definition for hunting.

JB