... why couldn't pen raised jaguar be hunted in the American southwest?

I have heard arguments about various conservation and anti-poaching advantages of captive lion breeding. Captive animal breeding has even helped prevent the extinction of some species. Can those same arguments be made for captive breeding of jaguar?

It might work but the lion is a pride animal where varying numbers hang together. The jaguar is a solitary animal, coming together only to breed. I'd be curious as to the husbandry.

I like your line of thinking.
The real question is, would it be economically viable for someone to start such a program.

As with all things in the world, the bottom line is the bottom line.

About a year ago I ran across a video of a jag that was treed by a puma hunter and just last night on one of the national news probably NBC that had pictures from a stealth camera of a jag somewhere in Arizona

quote:

The real question is, would it be economically viable for someone to start such a program.

We have many US hunters willing to pay quite a bit for airfare, hotels, guides, trophy fees, and export of trophies (when it was legal) to hunt lions in Africa. I imagine offering jaguar hunts could be quite lucrative once you consider what US hunters and foreigners would be willing to pay for the hunt.

Add tigers to the list. There's a real market for both and it's the best possible thing that could happen to the big cats. Within 10 years the population of both species would quadruple.

How about instead of all the speculation going on, why don't some of you folks ask the various Law Enforcement Agencies that have jurisdiction over such matters, and get answers from those folks!

I was just speculating, Crazy. But do I think any serious consideration of the idea would become more of a political issue than a law enforcement one. That's the world we live in.

I don't agree, here in America, it will be a Law Enforcement issue. Especially since Jaguars are classified as an Endangered species, and since there is a remnant population of jaguars that do show up in Arizona and New Mexico occasionally.

On top of that, Jaguars are not all that readily adaptable to captive propagation.

Grenadier and CrazyHorseConsulting are both correct.

Before someone opens a jaguar "hunting estate" in the United States he needs approval from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the wildlife department of whatever state he wants to operate in.

He also needs exemptions for his clients to possess and transport across state lines game-farmed jaguar trophies if his operation is in the U.S. If elsewhere, the feds must agree to allow them to be imported.

As soon as the public learns "canned jaguar" are being raised and killed, all hell would break out. Even the best and most expensive public relations firm could not overcome the condemnation of put-and-take jaguar shooting -- and trophy hunting in general.

For proof of this, just look at what lion farmers in South Africa are experiencing now.

If it weren't for the political and public relations problems, there would be no question game farming jaguars would be economically viable. Just look at what collectors are willing to pay to shoot a black rhino.

Bill Quimby

More importantly, it would provide an economically sustainable incentive to increase the species population.

The antis and unthinking government meddling are loving these animals to extinction.

on topic but not on topic:

what about pen raised lions in Texas? a lot of other African animals are behind high fences in Texas so why not beat the USFWS on the import game and do the job at home.

Whenever someone starts speculating on things fun and profitable along comes Randall with his logic to screw up the program.

Dream on fellas!

George

Not that many months ago I made a similar comment about lion. If your lion hunt is going to consist of following up a pen raised lion released in a high fenced area, why spend all the money to go to Africa? Just kick em loose in a high fenced area in Texas or Arizona and have at it.

Some one posted that there are some regulations in place in some states already that prohibit this with big cats and I believe he said Texas was one of them.

I remember many years ago.......... guessing about 40......... there were people releasing big cats in the southern US for guys to shoot. It created a huge stink and was a heated topic on TV news programs at the time. They had camera footage of one these 'hunts' and people were up in arms about. That was back then, can you imagine the uproar it would cause these days?

As for jaguar.......... never going to happen as per the comments made earlier about how they are currently listed by the USFWS.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline: If your lion hunt is going to consist of following up a pen raised lion released in a high fenced area, why spend all the money to go to Africa? Just kick em loose in a high fenced area in Texas or Arizona and have at it.

No high fences in Arizona.

Maybe you meant Manitoba?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I stand corrected. But no, no high fenced hunting allowed in Manitoba either.

Canned Hunts.Does anyone need to kill one that bad???

All of the snide comments miss the point, which is that canned "hunting" (shooting) of endangered species is good for the populations numbers, which should be the only thing that really matters.

The insistence on a "pure" experience, combined with the anti-hunters and emotionally driven legislation is loving these animals to extinction. I am for any policy that will increase the population and gene pool of these animals in an economically sustainable way.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Canned Hunts.Does anyone need to kill one that bad???

Maybe they should be "reintroduced" like the wolves. They could be released from San Diego to Brownsville.

What better way to secure the border?

Here is the article of the Jag that was treed in AZ

http://tucson.com/news/local/j...eb-001cc4c002e0.html

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
All of the snide comments miss the point, which is that canned "hunting" (shooting) of endangered species is good for the populations numbers, which should be the only thing that really matters.

The insistence on a "pure" experience, combined with the anti-hunters and emotionally driven legislation is loving these animals to extinction. I am for any policy that will increase the population and gene pool of these animals in an economically sustainable way.

Maybe the Lion in Africa.Raising animals offered as an adventure to a hunter plain stinks.I do not think Jaguars are fair game anywhere.Anyone who wants to hunt like that should be put in a cage with a starved animal with a knife.Show some fugging balls.

http://www.outdoornews.com/May...otic-animal-killers/



USFWS federal agents bust ring of exotic animal killers
Posted on May 24, 2002
Chicago Six Chicago residents, a Wisconsin man and a Lockport, Ill., exotic meat store have been indicted on federal charges for allegedly violating various wildlife protection laws by trading and killing endangered species, primarily tigers and leopards, and trafficking their skulls, hides, and other parts.

The indictments were announced during a news conference in Chicago by Patrick J. Fitzgerald, U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Illinois and William Hartwig, Midwest regional director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS).

Two of the indictments involve 19 tigers, seven leopards, a snow leopard, and a barasingha (Asian swamp deer), four species protected under the federal Endangered Species Act. Seventeen of the tigers and one leopard were allegedly killed, including some that were shot in cages in Alsi, Ill., and at an animal park in Crete, Ill. During the investigation, federal agents purchased and rescued six tigers and leopards, which otherwise were about to be killed.

The defendants include exotic animal exhibitors, taxidermists, "trophy" collectors and an exotic meat dealer, who allegedly bought tiger meat, mislabeled it as lion meat and sold it at his store in Lockport, Ill.

The indictments are the result of an investigation by FWS agents into the illegal trade of protected tigers, leopards, and other animals in the Midwest. In May 1999, FWS agents executed six search warrants and conducted interviews in 10 states, resulting in the seizure of a warehouse full of wildlife mounts, hides, skulls, bones, weapons, and documents. Last November, five defendants were indicted in Missouri, and four defendants were indicted on federal charges in Michigan. Each of the eight new defendants will be arraigned at a later date in U.S. District Court in Chicago.

"The scope of this investigation demonstrates the depths to which some people will go to profit from endangered wildlife," Hartwig said. "It is disturbing to see such graphic examples that prove an animal is worth more dead than alive. The individuals who have been indicted should not be confused with sportsmen; there is no sport in shooting confined animals."

"These prosecutions attack the illegal commercialization of endangered species on all fronts from the suppliers to the ultimate consumers of the animals' hides and meat," Fitzgerald said.

In one 28-count indictment, six individuals were charged with various misdemeanor violations of the Endangered Species Act, which makes it unlawful to transport, sell, receive, acquire, or buy wildlife.

The defendants and charges in the indictment are as follows:

William R. Kapp, 36, of Tinley Park, Ill., who purchased tigers and leopards from exotic animal exhibitors and dealers; shot, killed, skinned, and transported them, and caused others to do the same; and transported and sold their hides and meat for profit. He was charged with conspiracy to violate the Endangered Species Act and the Lacey Act and 17 additional counts of violating either of those laws. In a separate indictment, Kapp was charged with possession of a silencer;

Kevin W. Ramsey 32, of Wisconsin and formerly of Oak Forest, Ill., a taxidermist who assisted Kapp in buying, killing, skinning, and transporting endangered tigers and leopards, and transporting and selling their hides and meat. He was charged with seven counts of violating wildlife statutes;

Steven Galecki, 32, of Crete, Ill., an exotic animal exhibitor and dealer who owned an exotic animal exhibition business called Funky Monkey Animal Park in Crete and who bought tigers and leopards, shot, killed, and skinned them, and caused others to do the same, and transported and sold their hides and meat for profit. He was charged with conspiracy and six counts of violating wildlife statutes;

Robert Martinez, 52, of Palos Heights, Ill., who shot and killed tigers, leopards, and barasingha, and bought from Kapp, Galecki, and others their hides and skulls to be mounted and displayed as trophies. He was charged with five counts of violating wildlife protection statutes;

David C. Woldman, 45, of Lombard, Ill., who shot and killed wildlife, including an endangered tiger and purchased its hide and skull to be mounted and displayed as a trophy. He was charged with two counts of violating wildlife statutes;

Czimer's Game and Sea Foods, Inc., of Lockport, Ill., which purchased the meat of exotic animals, and sold the meat to the public. The business was charged with five counts of violating wildlife statutes;

Richard J. Czimer, Jr., 56, of Lockport, Ill., the president and operator of Czimer's Game and Sea Foods, who bought, sold, and offered to sell the meat of exotic animals. He was charged with five counts of violating wildlife protection statutes.

The indictment alleges that Kapp and Galecki conspired between Aug. 7 and Aug. 21, 1997, to buy live endangered animals, shoot and kill them or cause them to be shot and killed by others, and to sell the hides and meat. On Aug. 7, 1997, Kapp and Galecki, together with Ramsey and Martinez, shot and killed a leopard that was confined to a cage at the Funky Monkey Animal Park in Crete, Ill., which was owned and operated by Galecki. On Aug. 21, Kapp and Galecki caused two endangered tigers to be shot and killed at the park while they were in a trailer, according to the indictment. The hides and skulls of these animals were then sold to others, including Martinez and Woldman, and the carcasses and meat were sold to Czimer and his business with the understanding they would be processed and re-sold to the public. The indictment also alleges that various defendants engaged in the killing or trafficking of 15 additional tigers, four other leopards and an endangered barasingha, or their parts, through 1998.

A seven-count indictment against Timothy R. Laurie, 45, of Elgin, Ill., alleges that he violated the Endangered Species Act, the Lacey Act and a smuggling statute by possessing a mounted tiger and tiger skull that was killed in the United States, a leopard skull and hide, and an elephant hair bracelet, and a leopard carcass and snow leopard mount that were brought into Illinois from another state.

If convicted, the conspiracy count against Kapp and Galecki, and the felony Lacey Act violations against them and other defendants, each carry a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine; the misdemeanor Lacey Act and Endangered Species Act counts each carry a maximum penalty of one year in prison and a $100,000 fine. The smuggling counts against Laurie each carry a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

http://articles.latimes.com/19...exotic-animal-farm/3



This article was from 1991.



CAGED ANIMALS, WILD HUNTERS : The 'Canned Hunt' Industry Has Made Bagging an Exotic Animal as Easy as Shooting Fish in a Barrel


November 10, 1991|MICHAEL GOODMAN | Michael Goodman is a former Times investigative reporter. His last story for this magazine was on Asian gambling.


California authorities were tipped off last April about canned hunts for big cats in the Monterey County, Calif., community of Lockwood. Trophy hunters had paid thousands of dollars per animal to shoot them inside their cages, or as they walked out. Authorities know of three Bengal tigers, three cougars and two leopards that were killed. Floyd Lester Patterson III and his wife, Dawn, were arrested and convicted. They have appealed.

"We know canned hunts are widespread, but to say how widespread is incalculable," says Wayne Pacelle, national director of the Fund for Animals, headquartered in New York City. Pacelle's organization, which now includes 26 animal-protection groups, formed a coalition in July in Texas to ask the state Legislature to ban canned hunts there. Texas was not picked from a hat. The state is considered the hub of canned hunting in America.

Today more than 1,000 Texas ranches offer trophy hunting, says Chick Rivas, executive director of the 450-member Exotic Wildlife Assn. But none of the association's members, according to Rivas, offer canned hunts. The most in-demand trophies include imported exotics such as blackbuck antelope from Pakistan, axis deer from India, aoudad sheep from North Africa, sika deer from Japan and fallow deer from Europe. Exotics are hunted within fenced enclosures, often by placing the shooter near "corn feeders" that the animals depend on for food. It is not illegal in Texas: Exotic hoofed animals are not covered by state game laws. They are considered livestock.



They were first introduced on a broad scale in the 1950s as an option to raising beef. Many are still raised commercially for meat, but the real money comes in charging hunters to shoot them. A three-day hunt for blackbuck antelope, which are plentiful and popular, costs about $1,200. A three-day hunt for the prized addax antelope of North Africa starts at about $3,700. The most expensive trophies are the big cats: lions, tigers, leopards, cougars, jaguars. They can cost up to $10,000 each to shoot, and there's no pretense of a fair chase. These are canned hunts.

"There's really no practical way to have a fair chase in this country for big cats," says James Stinebaugh, a senior agent for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "Nobody would dare take a chance of a big cat--a tiger, an African lion, a jaguar--getting away." Stinebaugh, based in San Antonio, oversees south Texas. He says that canned cat hunts in Texas "just seem to have gotten worse" in the last decade, particularly for African lions and native American mountain lions, also known as cougars, which are not federally protected.

Federal law protects only animals that are "vulnerable," "threatened" or "endangered" worldwide , such as leopards, tigers and jaguars. American cougars and African lions are too plentiful to qualify. These two species must depend on state protection. Under Texas law, lions and cougars are considered livestock or varmints and can be killed at will. "Canned hunts for these lions are happening down here all the time, and we can't do anything about it," Stinebaugh says.

By contrast, California and many other states protect all big cats. Yet, canned hunts continue with regularity. The money must be worth the risk. Ty Bourgeois paid $3,000 to kill his black leopard. McCloud, the outfitter, bought the leopard at an exotic-animal auction three weeks earlier for $500--cheaper than many breeds of dogs and house cats.

"There's no end to how many hundreds and hundreds of big cats are out there multiplying, and with nowhere for them to go," Stinebaugh says. "Zoos don't want 'em. They're a danger to everybody . . . can't be well cared for . . . can't be released. From the day they're born, nothing good will ever happen to them. There never should be another one born in (private) captivity."

Most zoos have stopped breeding big cats because of their abundance and longevity in captivity. They live 15 to 18 years. "There's no need to breed them," says Michael Dee, curator of mammals of the Los Angeles Zoo. "There's plenty around."

"Big cats are a cheap commodity in the exotic-animal world. They're often given away. If you were a legitimate dealer, I could bury you in freebie big cats," says Pat Hoctor of Indiana, a nationally known breeder. "You could amass 100 to 150 big cats in a year for free." Hoctor publishes the Animal Finders' Guide, the main trade publication for exotics. Hoctor says legitimate cat owners accumulate surplus animals because they won't sell them for canned hunts or for their hides.

I am not promoting canned hunting as any sort of ethical sport. However, if people believe captive lion breeding can be used to help reestablish populations then the same argument should hold for captive jaguar breeding. If so called conservationists can justify introducing timber wolves to range they never occupied in the name of "conservation" then captive bred jaguars should be released into their original range.

Back in the late 1980's, I booked a whitetail deer hunt with a Texas outfitter named Dan Moody. During my hunt, I casually mentioned that a jaguar hunt was on my bucket list but I had deleted it since jaguar hunting was banned throughout Central and South America. Well, Mr. Moody advised me that he could make it happen. After my hunt, I quickly departed for Louisiana and never attempted to reestablish communications with Mr. Moody. A few years later, I encountered the following article:

CAGED ANIMALS, WILD HUNTERS : The 'Canned Hunt' Industry Has Made Bagging an Exotic Animal as Easy as Shooting Fish in a Barrel
(November 10, 1991)

During an interview, he reacts with a nod, a sigh and a shrug and waits stoically, politely, for the next question. He is asked how he got involved with the leopard. He stares at the floor of his den. He is short with bandy legs, a thick chest, trim brown hair, sheepish eyes, thin pursed lips, a pert nose and a pasty complexion. He speaks slowly, carefully, just above a whisper. It began with a telephone call from Daniel Lee Moody, a Texas hunting guide and outfitter.

"Dan was all excited," Bourgeois recalls. "Dan was saying, 'Man, you can't believe what I've got.' He said it was a black panther . . a black cougar . . . a bad one. He needed to get it off a ranch . . . use dogs. It would be a great hunt. He asked if I ever heard of an albino deer--this was the same thing: just like a white deer."

It sounded plausible to Bourgeois, and his faith in Moody is stated in print on the Texan's conventional-hunting brochure:

"I've enjoyed hunting with Dan (Moody). In the past years I've killed many trophy white-tailed deer and trophy exotics. I believe he has the finest selection of trophy exotics in the business. His hospitality and accommodations are second to none."

Bourgeois shrugs. "I really trusted him. We'd talked about hunting cougars . . . this was a black one." The hunt was set. Then Moody telephoned that the "cougar" had been caught in a trap for wild hogs. He had a new plan: Give the cougar a few minutes' head start, corner it with dogs, then shoot it.

The story changed again upon Bourgeois' arrival at Moody's Texas hunting ranch. Bourgeois recalls: "Dan said we were hunting a black leopard instead of a cougar. The leopard had gotten away from a man who owned it. . . . This was a bad cat. . . . If he gets loose . . . jumps that fence . . . we're going to shoot it in the morning. Everything was legal." The next morning, Bourgeois says, he was so nervous: "I was shaking. I didn't even go around the cat."

Then, Bourgeois says, came the blur of snarling dogs tearing at the leopard, and voices shouting orders. "I had to use Dan's pistol 'cause mine had a scope. I was too close to focus it." He clearly remembers examining the carcass. "The first thing I did was reach for the claws--to see a leopard's claws." He reddens. "But there weren't any claws. He'd been declawed."

The leopard was loaded into Bourgeois' Bronco for the six-hour drive to Louisiana. With Bourgeois were several friends, including Kurt Courville, a Lake Charles taxidermist who was on the hunt. "I was nauseated by what happened," Courville remembers. "Nobody brought up the cat on the drive back. But I sure did some thinking if we were doing something illegal. Ty was worried, too."

They telephoned the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and discovered that leopards are a protected species, and that Bourgeois had committed a federal felony when he shot the cat and took it across the state line. Bourgeois hired an attorney and agreed to testify against Moody and another outfitter, Ronald Terrell McCloud, who had bought the leopard at an exotic-animal auction.

Bourgeois also gave federal authorities a videotape recorded by a friend. The tape showed the leopard running under the truck, being mauled by dogs and then, dead, being photographed with Bourgeois.

"I didn't really realize what kind of hunt it was until I sat down and saw that tape," Bourgeois says. He pleaded guilty to violation of the U.S. Endangered Species Act and was sentenced July 21 to three years' probation and fined $2,000. Moody and McCloud pleaded guilty to conspiring to transport illegally taken wildlife. Moody was sentenced to six months in prison, three years' probation and a $2,000 fine. McCloud also pleaded guilty to failing to disclose on a gun application that he was an ex-felon. His combined sentence was 27 months in prison and three years' probation.

The bunny huggers will never allow it and as long as the jaguar is on the endangered species list neither will the Feds.

If we could get enough jaguars propagated it would no longer be endangered and could be delisted.

Grenadier:

Similar logic has been used in Africa by lion breeders -- and soundly rejected by the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa as well as many hunters around the world and nearly everyone anywhere who learns lions are being raised to be killed in enclosures.

It doesn't matter that captive jaguar breeding will increase the number of jaguars on the planet. We live in a different time. Shooting jaguars in enclosures in the U.S. or elsewhere would put us one huge step closer to ending all hunting.

Bill Quimby

Like I said earlier, let's all just love these animals to extinction. The current policies are **failing**. Saving these animals requires that we turn financial liabilities into financial assets. No other policy will work, no matter how "well intentioned" or "kind hearted". At some point do-gooders are required to confirm with reality that their actions do, in fact, actual good.